Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
For the love of whoever... those that think this was some sort of sneaky "behind closed doors" sweet deal just for Amazon, please see this line:

"The reduced App Store fees for Amazon's Prime Video app are actually part of a longstanding policy run by Apple to provide better fees for subscription-based streaming video apps."

And see this link: https://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/16/apple-halving-subscription-video-fees/

MacRumors, I know you can't be held responsible for people simply not reading, but this also could've been framed a bit better, making this more of a key point, instead of being placed near the end as a "oh yeah by the way..." point.
 
They also have a special team for reviewing Baidu’s app submissions and fast tracks submissions. Not treating “every developer the same.”
 
Not sure what you're saying.
To put this into perspective, at that time, Amazon refused to sell Apple TV (and also Chromecast) on their site if they didn't put Amazon's Prime video player on it with favorable terms. But of course, it's easier to put the evil tag on Apple today.

As for Internet Explorer, I believe one can install any internet browsers on Windows. There's Netscape, Opera, Firebird (Firefox), etc. So yeah, it was "terrible".... I checked and most Android phones must have Chrome (and other Google apps) pre-installed if they want to be Google certified. Where's the outrage, I wonder.
[automerge]1596130113[/automerge]

The question was about an alternate distribution channel. Web apps is a valid distribution method.

To clarify, I’m saying that some developers are complaining that Apple gives favourable terms on their App Store. But where we see that happening is to benefit the consumer (I.e. bringing prime video to the Apple TV). So if benefiting consumers is the holy grail how can their be a complaint?

Also, my reference to IE was when MS built it directly into the OS and it couldn’t be removed and it was used to stifle competition with Netscape etc. This was one of the reasons MS was investigated by the EU and US governments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jntdroid
As the story mentions, this is normal for streaming services since 2016
Tim Cook didn’t say we treat all streaming services the same, he said we treat all developers the same.
[automerge]1596141830[/automerge]
Yes, I do.

Mastercard and Visa have operating margins around 65%.

Apple operating margin is around 25%.

You can see, Apple’s margins are far more reasonable and VISA and MasterCard bust your face. Saying they “only“ earn a 2% fee is a misunderstanding of the business model.

Apple is providing the developer a lot more value than the fees Vis a and MasterCard charge, which was my second point.
Apple’s services operating margin is only 25 percent?
 
  • Like
Reactions: hlfway2anywhere
Apple makes up the rules as it goes. If you’re big and powerful you can get Apple to change their rules for you (see: reader apps). Fine but then don’t claim everyone is treated the same because they’re not.

And those changes rules then apply to every company/developer which means they operate under the same rules.

A lot of people thing that "everyone is treated the same" means every app is treated the same, which is clearly not the case and not what Apple wants either.
[automerge]1596153315[/automerge]
@DarkAeneas i see you "disagreeing" with all the posts on here calling out Apple's hypocrisy. I'm just curious how one can be okay with Apple saying they treat every app equally AND also seeing this interaction. Care to elaborate on why that isn't total garbage?

They say they treat every _developer_ the same. It is a huge difference.

Of course, Apple discriminate on the type of apps you are wanting to sell or distribute.
 
When Tim said "rules are applied to developers equally" i would assume that means rules including 30% revenue share. unless of course Tim is being a double-talking hypocrite.

No, they are implicitly referring to the entire "App Store Review Guidelines" and other programs and developer in this context means a legal entity which has enrolled in the Apple Developer Program, accepted the terms and conditions of that program which include adhering to said guidelines.

In those guidelines there are detailed rules on how revenue sharing occurs and it clearly shows that discrimination occurs based on what kind of app the developer is submitting and not who the developer is.

So if Amazon is releasing a music streaming app they must obey the same rules as Spotify.
If Spotify releases a video streaming app they must obey the same rules as Amazon.
[automerge]1596154206[/automerge]
I understand that you're trying to move the goalpost of the discussion to fit a narrative but the article states that "apple offered to halve app store fee" -- we're not really talking about the option to ask. We're talking about an offer. If you'd like to discuss the topic at hand that'd be great lets do it.

That offer is available to anyone which fulfils the requirement. Now this 2016 program involves the Apple TV store so it is just not the App Store.
 
Tim should be charged with perjury.
More like bull****ing in court - which, sadly, isn't actually a crime. But I hear ya.

Apple's work on the privacy front is almost peerless. Apple's work on everything else is user-hostile and developer-hostile. (If you want to know the state of a platform, listen to the third-party developers. In Apple's case, right now, it's not pretty.)
[automerge]1596154424[/automerge]
And nobody reads the comments this deep into a MR thread unfortunately either...
Case in point...
 
So if anyone can submit a request to get an exemption that means they’re all treated the same even if Apple only grants the exception to certain developers? Look we all know certain developers are going to get preferential treatment. Apple needs Spotify and Netflix on it’s platform more than some small indie developer. So Cook shouldn’t make the argument everyone is treated the same when we all know they’re not.

The reason why so few do it is that the requirements are rather stringent:

1. Provide a video service
2. Creating an app for Apple TV for said video service
3. Integrate with the Apple TV app
4. Integrate with Siri

Most developers do not satisfy even the first requirement.

Spotify do not qualify since they do not offer a video service.
[automerge]1596154636[/automerge]
He thinks he has a "gotcha" argument but is really just trying to ignore the obvious inequality on the app store. It's the same thing people do when they say everyone in the U.S. has the same opportunity to make something of themselves while ignoring the fact that the whole system is stacked in favor of the wealthy. Like, yeah technically the opportunity is there but when you make it impossible for the small guy to actually compete, is it really an opportunity?

That is probably true about the US, but then companies like Amazon, Netflix, Spotify, Microsoft and Google should be left out of the discussion since they are not a small guy.
[automerge]1596154778[/automerge]
So amazon gets special treatment, I guess not all apps are treated the same on the App Store like Apple claims

Apple says they treat every _developer_ the same, not every kind of apps.
[automerge]1596155040[/automerge]
Short of jailbreaking, it is the ONLY app store for iOS.
I'm sure devs would like other distribution options.
Businesses can have their own application store for their employees.
 
Last edited:
It is quite the conundrum isn't it?

On the one hand it's just a normal deal being made between 2 businesses.

On the other hand, its anti-competitive behavior being engaged in by 2 monster companies.

It is both, at the same time. There is nothing wrong with it, and there is everything wrong with it. It is bizarre how normal business is not acceptable anymore when you become too big, but that's how it is.
It's because companies don't actually have the right to conduct business anyway they like. Why? Because the country is run by the government, not businesses. And the government is a democracy, so it is run by us, we the people, the government is made up of elected people who represent US and OUR wishes, it's OUR country, and WE make the rules. Companies get to do business in OUR country only with OUR permission. As in, to legally set up a business, you have to follow the rules that WE have created. And as much as WE want companies to thrive and profit, WE also don't want companies to do things that hurt us. Thus the existence of anti-monopoly laws, environmental protection laws, health regulations, employment laws, minimum wages, tax laws, equity trading and reporting laws, and so on. Now sure, in practice, there is corruption, lobbying, and all sorts of shenanigans, so it doesn't run quite as smooth as the theory, but some of it actually does work.
 
Last edited:
The reason why so few do it is that the requirements are rather stringent:

1. Provide a video service
2. Creating an app for Apple TV for said video service
3. Integrate with the Apple TV app
4. Integrate with Siri
But who sets the requirements? Apple. It’s like the reader category. Apple gerrymandered a guideline to ensure apps like Netflix and Spotify wouldn’t leave their platform. Apple knew what apps needed to be exempted from their IAP rules so they created a guideline that could fit just those apps.

This is what Tim Cook said in his opening statement:

For the vast majority of apps, developers keep a 100% of the money they make. The only apps that are subject to a commission are those where the developer acquires a customer on an Apple device and where the features or services would be experienced and consumed on an Apple device.
I‘m not sure what he means by “the money they make”. If it’s a paid app Apple would get a cut of the app purchase. If it’s a free app with ads or other IAP Apple would get a cut whenever someone uses IAP. Perhaps it’s related to the comment Apple PR gave to the NY Times that Airbnb has never paid Apple any money. Why would Apple say this unless deep down the execs believe the company deserves a cut of all commerce that happens on an iOS device.

As far as “the developer acquires a customer on an Apple device and features or services would be experienced and consumed on an Apple device”. OK how does one determine a customer was acquired on an Apple device? The only way one can get apps on their iOS device is via the App Store so even if you hear about an app or service elsewhere you have to use the App Store to download it. And that statement isn’t really factually correct because of the reader app rule Apple implemented so Spotify, Netflix, Amazon etc. wouldn’t have to pay Apple a commission.

Apple keeps comparing to when people purchased software at B&M stores. Were B&M stores getting a commission on subscription services or just a cut of the initial purchase? I think it’s absolutely right and just for Apple to say you can’t be in our store for free. But that’s completely different than saying we want a cut of your business. And that argument doesn’t really square with 84% of apps in the store are free/freemium. I’d rather every app have to pay something to be in the store and have it be based on the actual costs of running the store (and any promotion in the App Store) and not we’re going to take 30% of your revenue stream just because.
 
Apple isn’t like the CC companies are they? They provide the platform, billions of devices and customers, software tools to develop apps for the platform, etc. Try harder.

And?

Try again. That was easy.
[automerge]1596249010[/automerge]
What are the operating margins for Visa and MasterCard?

What about Apple?

Do you understand exactly what comes with each fee and what the company does for the fee?

Yes. Do you?

Aren't you that guy attached to Tim at the hip? What happened to your signature?
 
But who sets the requirements? Apple. It’s like the reader category. Apple gerrymandered a guideline to ensure apps like Netflix and Spotify wouldn’t leave their platform. Apple knew what apps needed to be exempted from their IAP rules so they created a guideline that could fit just those apps.

This is what Tim Cook said in his opening statement:


I‘m not sure what he means by “the money they make”. If it’s a paid app Apple would get a cut of the app purchase. If it’s a free app with ads or other IAP Apple would get a cut whenever someone uses IAP. Perhaps it’s related to the comment Apple PR gave to the NY Times that Airbnb has never paid Apple any money. Why would Apple say this unless deep down the execs believe the company deserves a cut of all commerce that happens on an iOS device.

As far as “the developer acquires a customer on an Apple device and features or services would be experienced and consumed on an Apple device”. OK how does one determine a customer was acquired on an Apple device? The only way one can get apps on their iOS device is via the App Store so even if you hear about an app or service elsewhere you have to use the App Store to download it. And that statement isn’t really factually correct because of the reader app rule Apple implemented so Spotify, Netflix, Amazon etc. wouldn’t have to pay Apple a commission.

Apple keeps comparing to when people purchased software at B&M stores. Were B&M stores getting a commission on subscription services or just a cut of the initial purchase? I think it’s absolutely right and just for Apple to say you can’t be in our store for free. But that’s completely different than saying we want a cut of your business. And that argument doesn’t really square with 84% of apps in the store are free/freemium. I’d rather every app have to pay something to be in the store and have it be based on the actual costs of running the store (and any promotion in the App Store) and not we’re going to take 30% of your revenue stream just because.

Ads

Lots of free apps just make money on ads.

Store apps like Amazon or Best Buy also make all their own money without giving a cut.

Any apps where the subscribers don’t sign up through the app (like Netflix or Creative Cloud) don’t give a cut.


what I don’t get is why you don’t think Apple is entitled to make profit from its app ecosystem. Most of these app developers would not exist if Apple did not create the App Store. Apple has spent tremendous amounts of money and time building a premium ecosystem that people willingly pay to be a part of. It‘s not as if Apple was guaranteed success. When the iPhone launched they were just a little fish.

Imagine if some tiny company went to a big company and demanded their customer list and all their business contacts. a great example would be a talent agency or a law firm. This would be akin to demanding their client list because they referred a few customers to you.

Apple also spends tons of money building and creating better and more efficient APIs and dev tools. There’s no way the $100 a year per dev covers it.

Also remember none of these companies were forced to develop iOS apps nor were they forced to agree to the terms, but they all did. They did so because it was beneficial of them to do so. Apples cut has never changed.

I feel like people have totally forgotten what kinda back room deals Microsoft was doing to get itself in trouble, it wasn’t just a matter of bundling IE, but also leveraging their relationships with OEMs and component manufacturers into actively not supporting competitors.

It’s not as if Apple is engaging in practices such as blocking developers at the request of other “more valuable” developers or anything. They aren’t leveraging anyone. And while they all may be complaining, they all continue to make iOS apps, and I highly doubt every single app developer is operating at a loss. Lots and lots of app companies turn plenty of profits. If you think this is about fairness and not simply one side making a cash grab while the other refuses to give up its profits or decade long established pricing you are delusional.

There are totally antitrust cases to made against Apple, for example Spotify has a much better case as Apple has come to directly compete with them. Epic and Apple are only in a mutually beneficial relationship. This is simply the largest viable opportunity Epic has to massively increase their margins as Fortnite itself has only so much earning potential.
 
There are totally antitrust cases to made against Apple, for example Spotify has a much better case as Apple has come to directly compete with them. Epic and Apple are only in a mutually beneficial relationship. This is simply the largest viable opportunity Epic has to massively increase their margins as Fortnite itself has only so much earning potential.

Let us not forget that Epic makes a lot of money licencing Unreal to developers and then directly competing with them by making their own games with updated versions of Unreal that those licenses don't have access to. Epic is in a position to make the most profitable games and if users opt to play something else they still make money.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.