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Apple Offers Developers a Closer Look at the New Mac Pro

:eek:designing at it's best.
that thing is small! how did they put so many things in such a small device?
i'd definitely think about buying this awesome product.
 
Squishy Tia said:
My blu-ray burner is internal, thank you.

OK, now I didn't read through all twelve pages (or however much longer it gets while I type this), but has anybody taken a look at the specs thoroughly?

I'll break it down for you and let you be the judge. I'm assuming PCIe 3.0 architechture since the bandwidth claims exceed PCIe 2.0 by 100%.

Thunderbolt 2 Array: 20 GB/sec. That's equivalant to an x20 link width card on a PCIe bus. That's also half of the entire PCIe bandwidth for the entire computer just for that array.

Mini-PCIe Flash Connector (SSD): 1.25 GB/sec read / 1 GB/sec write. Assuming incompressible data for those claimed speeds, that requires an x2 (2 GB/sec) PCIe connection.

Graphics: Dual AMD FirePro cards. Now, if you've been paying attention so far you'll realize that twenty two of the maximum 40 lanes of the PCIe bus are taken, leaving eighteen to work with. Most video cards we've used so far have been x16 in link width. However here we run into a problem. There are not enough lanes left for two x16 cards so guess what? Those cards can only be running at x8 link width.

Now, anybody that knows PCIe 2.0 vs. PCIe 3.0 bandwidth knows that x8 PCIe 3.0 = x16 PCIe 2.0. The FirePro's current lineup consists of PCIe 3.0 cards though, so these are almost certainly running at x8, or half of their potential capability. Two AMD cards in crossfire at x8 can exceed a single AMD card at x16 in certain tasks, but there's another catch.

These are FirePro cards.

Let that sink in for a moment. Not only are they x8 link width maximum for the two cards, but since there is only a single PCIe controller, all slots have to operate on the same specification, i.e. PCIe 3.0, unlike the dual controller motherboards some PCs sport. Now factor in that these are workstation graphics cards, and not mainstream general purpose graphics cards and you've run into a problem.

The only people that are going to benefit from this setup are those with either a Mac Mini that need more or who use apps that make heavy use of OpenCL and/or are designed specifically for the environments for which these cards shine. Gaming, which is something most of us get the Mac Pro for due to its expandability, is going to suck on these. Sure they're nifty at first glance, but wipe away the drool for the case and you realize you're gimped out the gate for anything but rendering/editing.

Then there's the cost. If you think FirePro is cheap, think again. The closest spec card AMD has out right now is this one. Newegg has it for $1429. Now that listed card has only 4 GB VRAM and Apple's versions have 6 GB each. If the retail version, which is lesser costs $1400 conservatively, you can expect these, which are actually beefier in both spec and VRAM to cost more. In fact, these will hit your wallet more than the Xeon CPUs inside will.

Are we starting to get the bigger picture of what this machine is going to set you back and how much clutter its all-or-nothing external expandability brings with it? You'll need a RAID tower that supports Thunderbolt 2 if you want equivalant storage in a single no-muss no-fuss enclosure like you had in your Mac Pro of yore. Good luck finding that on the cheap.

Then there's the requisite optical drive if you want to use the new Pro as your media hub/HTPC as well. Some people have externals already, most current Pro owners do not, so figure that to be another expense.

RAM? You're going to pay a premium to max this puppy out. Remember, you now have half the slots of the top of the line Mac Pro from previous generations, so that means splurging for 16 GB sticks. And RAM prices are going up, not down. Tack that on as well.

Want extra displays? Well, your current crop of external monitors won't cut it with their connections unless they're already using Thunderbolt or MiniDisplayPort connections. So figure on getting more adapters.

Want to upgrade your internal storage? That's gonna cost you a pretty penny too since Mini-PCIe based SSDs are not that common, and are far from even remotely affordable.

One more thing to consider is that while this is an engineering feat to say the least, there's still the issue of SpeedStep. That "thermal core" is not only dissipating heat for the RAM, but one or two CPUs, and two GPUs. FirePro cards run rather hot. And does anybody know a Xeon that doesn't run hot on anything other than a typically hideously large passive heatsink? I didn't think so. And there's only one fan and it's pulling double duty as both intake and exhaust. Now the design may well support that, but I'm having trouble envisioning this machine maintaining full load and remaining relatively quiet. I just don't see it happening. I could be proven wrong, but thus far history has yet to pony up on designs like this kind. That outer casing is probably going to play a huge role in heat dissipation. Maybe it will do as well as the old Mac Pro's chassis did for that task - time will tell.

Audio wise, there's a slight conundrum: If I want to get audio to my AVR without routing my monitor/TV through said AVR and back to the computer, I'm going to have to shell out for a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter just for that purpose as there is no S/PDIF onboard, which many people will sorely miss.

All in all it's a nice looking computer, and hey, it may even function halfway decently. But there are a ton of pitfalls in getting one, especially if you're already heavily invested in conventional expansion.

I'm not arguing that the design isn't cool - it is. But the lack of internal storage capability, all or nothing external options for expansion, and two GPUs that are pretty much "one trick ponies" make for a very non-compelling purchase for a great many people, especially those that already have a heavy gear investment.

I just thought I'd put that out for y'all to think about before speeding down that rather bumpy and expensive path.
Click to expand...

you wrote a book
 
Squishy Tia said:
My blu-ray burner is internal, thank you.

OK, now I didn't read through all twelve pages (or however much longer it gets while I type this), but has anybody taken a look at the specs thoroughly?

I'll break it down for you and let you be the judge. I'm assuming PCIe 3.0 architechture since the bandwidth claims exceed PCIe 2.0 by 100%.

Thunderbolt 2 Array: 20 GB/sec. That's equivalant to an x20 link width card on a PCIe bus. That's also half of the entire PCIe bandwidth for the entire computer just for that array.

Mini-PCIe Flash Connector (SSD): 1.25 GB/sec read / 1 GB/sec write. Assuming incompressible data for those claimed speeds, that requires an x2 (2 GB/sec) PCIe connection.

Graphics: Dual AMD FirePro cards. Now, if you've been paying attention so far you'll realize that twenty two of the maximum 40 lanes of the PCIe bus are taken, leaving eighteen to work with. Most video cards we've used so far have been x16 in link width. However here we run into a problem. There are not enough lanes left for two x16 cards so guess what? Those cards can only be running at x8 link width.

Now, anybody that knows PCIe 2.0 vs. PCIe 3.0 bandwidth knows that x8 PCIe 3.0 = x16 PCIe 2.0. The FirePro's current lineup consists of PCIe 3.0 cards though, so these are almost certainly running at x8, or half of their potential capability. Two AMD cards in crossfire at x8 can exceed a single AMD card at x16 in certain tasks, but there's another catch.

These are FirePro cards.

Let that sink in for a moment. Not only are they x8 link width maximum for the two cards, but since there is only a single PCIe controller, all slots have to operate on the same specification, i.e. PCIe 3.0, unlike the dual controller motherboards some PCs sport. Now factor in that these are workstation graphics cards, and not mainstream general purpose graphics cards and you've run into a problem.

The only people that are going to benefit from this setup are those with either a Mac Mini that need more or who use apps that make heavy use of OpenCL and/or are designed specifically for the environments for which these cards shine. Gaming, which is something most of us get the Mac Pro for due to its expandability, is going to suck on these. Sure they're nifty at first glance, but wipe away the drool for the case and you realize you're gimped out the gate for anything but rendering/editing.

Then there's the cost. If you think FirePro is cheap, think again. The closest spec card AMD has out right now is this one. Newegg has it for $1429. Now that listed card has only 4 GB VRAM and Apple's versions have 6 GB each. If the retail version, which is lesser costs $1400 conservatively, you can expect these, which are actually beefier in both spec and VRAM to cost more. In fact, these will hit your wallet more than the Xeon CPUs inside will.

Are we starting to get the bigger picture of what this machine is going to set you back and how much clutter its all-or-nothing external expandability brings with it? You'll need a RAID tower that supports Thunderbolt 2 if you want equivalant storage in a single no-muss no-fuss enclosure like you had in your Mac Pro of yore. Good luck finding that on the cheap.

Then there's the requisite optical drive if you want to use the new Pro as your media hub/HTPC as well. Some people have externals already, most current Pro owners do not, so figure that to be another expense.

RAM? You're going to pay a premium to max this puppy out. Remember, you now have half the slots of the top of the line Mac Pro from previous generations, so that means splurging for 16 GB sticks. And RAM prices are going up, not down. Tack that on as well.

Want extra displays? Well, your current crop of external monitors won't cut it with their connections unless they're already using Thunderbolt or MiniDisplayPort connections. So figure on getting more adapters.

Want to upgrade your internal storage? That's gonna cost you a pretty penny too since Mini-PCIe based SSDs are not that common, and are far from even remotely affordable.

One more thing to consider is that while this is an engineering feat to say the least, there's still the issue of SpeedStep. That "thermal core" is not only dissipating heat for the RAM, but one or two CPUs, and two GPUs. FirePro cards run rather hot. And does anybody know a Xeon that doesn't run hot on anything other than a typically hideously large passive heatsink? I didn't think so. And there's only one fan and it's pulling double duty as both intake and exhaust. Now the design may well support that, but I'm having trouble envisioning this machine maintaining full load and remaining relatively quiet. I just don't see it happening. I could be proven wrong, but thus far history has yet to pony up on designs like this kind. That outer casing is probably going to play a huge role in heat dissipation. Maybe it will do as well as the old Mac Pro's chassis did for that task - time will tell.

Audio wise, there's a slight conundrum: If I want to get audio to my AVR without routing my monitor/TV through said AVR and back to the computer, I'm going to have to shell out for a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter just for that purpose as there is no S/PDIF onboard, which many people will sorely miss.

All in all it's a nice looking computer, and hey, it may even function halfway decently. But there are a ton of pitfalls in getting one, especially if you're already heavily invested in conventional expansion.

I'm not arguing that the design isn't cool - it is. But the lack of internal storage capability, all or nothing external options for expansion, and two GPUs that are pretty much "one trick ponies" make for a very non-compelling purchase for a great many people, especially those that already have a heavy gear investment.

I just thought I'd put that out for y'all to think about before speeding down that rather bumpy and expensive path.
Click to expand...


Think some people just want use their computer.

Anything wrong with that?

Do you really think the design was generated in this form because it will be louder due to fan noise?

Hot air rises :)
 
sransari said:
I don't get why so much energy was spent on compacting the physical size of the mac pro. that should not be a consideration. internal expandability and serviceability is much more important, and the previous gen mac pro design actually delivered those key features.

I like that expansion is not "limited to the space inside the enclosure" but it would be nice for the enclosure to be large enough so that you can get what you need in one box in a clean look without having to plug in external components. why reduce the size of the enclosure only to require external components for expansion? makes no sense.

And I am not saying this because I don't like change...when the previous gen mac pro was released from the one previous to that, I was actually impressed and excited since it delivered key features...killer hardware and easy expansion in one, clean, beautiful box. now we have a trash can where our main option for expansion is by plugging in external components. boooo
Click to expand...

I guess the key argument is that TB technology allows to use external parts without compromising the performance at all (something that was impossible in past years), even to the limits of external gfx upgrade.

I'd like too of new MP to allowed me to upgrade internally + externally. In my case, the biggest downside is that gfx will not be upgradeable with normal 3rd party retail cards. At least they should allow to upgrade all the existing internal parts, if not adding more.

And then, there's the starting price... If I had to guess, I think this will not look good.
 
lkrupp said:
I'm reading all the trashcan comments, the hate, the condescension, and I'm kinda chuckling to myself. You bozo savants were saying the same stuff about the iPad. Remember the feminine napkin comments? Remember the giant iPod comments? Remember the naysaying? Remember the condescension? Who had the last laugh then? How quickly you forget who really pwns you every time.
Click to expand...

The is the best reply post I've read so. I love it!
 
I can see the R2D2 mods for it coming very soon... I want.

P1020229.JPG
 
Chupa Chupa said:
1) Those are MSRP prices, not negotiated wholesale OEM.

2) Apple didn't say every MP will ship with top of the line FirePros, just that they would all ship with FirePros. Their price range is wide plus Apple could be commissioning its own versions.

People are making bizarre speculations. I guarantee their will be a $2500 or less entry price.
Click to expand...

Fair comments I guess. But Apple are promoting the facts of (up to) 6GB RAM per card and 7 Teraflops of compute, so there will be a machine with two of these (or very similar cards) inside.

I was more just suprised by how expensive these professional grade graphics/compute cards are. I was thinking up to 1000 per card at most. So I've learnt a lot!
 
Squishy Tia said:
I'll break it down for you and let you be the judge. I'm assuming PCIe 3.0 architechture since the bandwidth claims exceed PCIe 2.0 by 100%.

Thunderbolt 2 Array: 20 GB/sec. That's equivalant to an x20 link width card on a PCIe bus. That's also half of the entire PCIe bandwidth for the entire computer just for that array.

Mini-PCIe Flash Connector (SSD): 1.25 GB/sec read / 1 GB/sec write. Assuming incompressible data for those claimed speeds, that requires an x2 (2 GB/sec) PCIe connection.

Graphics: Dual AMD FirePro cards. Now, if you've been paying attention so far you'll realize that twenty two of the maximum 40 lanes of the PCIe bus are taken, leaving eighteen to work with. Most video cards we've used so far have been x16 in link width. However here we run into a problem. There are not enough lanes left for two x16 cards so guess what? Those cards can only be running at x8 link width.

Now, anybody that knows PCIe 2.0 vs. PCIe 3.0 bandwidth knows that x8 PCIe 3.0 = x16 PCIe 2.0. The FirePro's current lineup consists of PCIe 3.0 cards though, so these are almost certainly running at x8, or half of their potential capability. Two AMD cards in crossfire at x8 can exceed a single AMD card at x16 in certain tasks, but there's another catch.

These are FirePro cards.
Click to expand...

First of all, did you forget that there are 6 of those 20GB/s Thunderbolts?
Making it 120? And they have to work the same time as there's a possibility for 3 4K screens via TB ports.

Then we go to graphics. 15.75 GB/s if x16, 7.88 GB/s if x8. It makes already 31.5 or 15.76 GB/s.

Then ok, the storage goes around 2.5 GB/s. We go around 160 GB/s.

But how does this stuff work? There are either different controller for the Thunderbolts that they have said nothing, or then it goes like they show and makes us understand it: the Graphics works with the x16 (or higher), and the Thunderbolts just goes with graphics flow. (as they work also in the world of screen connections.) Or then boths and something in the middle making them work great together.

(as you might find out, that the 40GB/s bandwidth for PCIe 3 was on the page of processor, that it means the processors/ it's controller's limit. Oh right, and if the top model comes with 2 processors, it doubles their PCIe controllers bandwidth. I see no problem.)
 
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sransari said:
well those comments are still valid. just because something is popular doesn't make it better. things like the ipad will sell well with the mainstream user who doesn't know how to use a computer, but this new mac pro will not be received well by computing enthusiasts.
Click to expand...

Just going to go ahead and bookmark this post, thanks.
 
powers74 said:
Well, this is definitely Steve's dream machine.



Uh... that's retail?
Click to expand...

But so is the list price of the new Mc Pro. When has Apple ever included components in its machines that are significantly below the retail cost equivalent. It uses its margins (negotiated with component vendors) to increase profits per unit not to significantly lower prices for its customers.

If these cards retail for up to $4k, then I am sure Apple will charge a similar price as a BTO option (or within the originally included list price if they are not optional).
 
bedifferent said:
Oh, the irony. Adults discuss things respectfully, productively, it's how we learn and progress. Personally insulting others serves no purpose other than making you appear foolish. So please, for those of us discussing an important update for hardware we make a living from, don't insult us with inflammatory and pointless diatribe and move on.
Click to expand...

Please just move on. You've said your piece. Ruffled a few feathers here with your words. Had your opinions felt, and that's it. No need to add more fuel to the fire by saying your comments are more adult then everyone elses. They are just your opinions like everyone else here is stating their opinion too.

And the good part about an opinion is it's neither right or wrong.

Back on topic . . . .

I so don't need a MP but if the low end model is reasonably priced I might just pick one up and use it when my iMac gets long in the tooth. And use the iMac as the screen. I'm really impressed by this MP. And this is something, as it's the first MP I've even considered up buy.
 
Zwhaler said:
I like having my HDDs in the computer. I don't see any HDD bays in there so that means external storage only (talking about real storage not little 2TB SSD clusters) sigh...
Click to expand...

How do you put 400-500 TB of storage into the now old MacPro? Because _that's_ real storage.
 
Squishy Tia said:
One more thing to consider is that while this is an engineering feat to say the least, there's still the issue of SpeedStep. That "thermal core" is not only dissipating heat for the RAM, but one or two CPUs, and two GPUs. FirePro cards run rather hot. And does anybody know a Xeon that doesn't run hot on anything other than a typically hideously large passive heatsink? I didn't think so. And there's only one fan and it's pulling double duty as both intake and exhaust. Now the design may well support that, but I'm having trouble envisioning this machine maintaining full load and remaining relatively quiet. I just don't see it happening. I could be proven wrong, but thus far history has yet to pony up on designs like this kind. That outer casing is probably going to play a huge role in heat dissipation. Maybe it will do as well as the old Mac Pro's chassis did for that task - time will tell.
Click to expand...

Look i agree with almost all of your post but if there is one i have learned, its to trust the Apple engineers. I would bet a large sum of money that the cooling system on the new Mac Pro will work very well. The new Mac Pro was not built overnight, im sure the Apple engineers have tested it thoroughly. I know alot of people were sure the new iMac would run hot but it runs cooler then the previous generation!
 
This is one major screw up by Apple:(
The new iTrash will be bough by a few. People like me (semi-pro on a budget) wont touch this with a 10 foot pole. It's going to cost a fortune, and with non-replaceable parts, it'll be become obsolete within 2 years (if not sooner).
There was NOTHING wrong with the existing Mac Pros. I bought mine because there are options to upgrade the components. All they had to do was update the specs to latest and greatest and I'd be buying one.....

All apple had to do was:
1) Reduce the form factor: dump the DVD drives, switch to 4 or 6 2.5" internal drives, provide 2 internal 16x pcie 3 slots with 4 8-pin power and one or two pcie flash drives. Let everything else run of thunderbolt.
2) Introduce two versions: one build around an i7, another around xeons and dual xeons.
3) Provide multiple GUP upgrades/updates: workstation cards (firepros, quadors) and gaming cards (radeons and geforce)

Kinda sounds like a PC...well yeah...that's the idea. Wasn't that an idea with existing Mac Pros. But now I have no valid reason to stick with Apple once I need to upgrade. Way to lose a customer Apple...
 
SuperMatt said:
You must be right. Apple clearly didn't think of any of this stuff. They don't know how many PCI lanes a graphic card needs. As we know, they never sweat the details and always release crippled products. And of course, nobody will ever release an external PCI expansion chassis that connects via thunderbolt. The only thing to do is keep releasing the same old design.

Also, if you're buying a new Mac Pro, that's a substantial layout of cash. I think spending a bit extra on a thunderbolt-PCI expansion chassis for your old gear won't make it that much more unpalatable of a cost.
Click to expand...

You sound so sarcastic.

But there is still some examples of thunderbolt PCIe expansion chassis;
http://store1.sonnettech.com/product_info.php?&products_id=403
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Thunderbolt/PCIe_Chassis/Mercury_Helios
 
kunia said:
This is one major screw up by Apple:(
The new iTrash will be bough by a few. People like me (semi-pro on a budget) wont touch this with a 10 foot pole. It's going to cost a fortune, and with non-replaceable parts, it'll be become obsolete within 2 years (if not sooner).
There was NOTHING wrong with the existing Mac Pros. I bought mine because there are options to upgrade the components. All they had to do was update the specs to latest and greatest and I'd be buying one.....
Click to expand...

You really should spend more time around here. It will have replaceable parts, but e.g. the graphics ain't just in the usual seen form. And of course there will be cheap models too (maybe starting around $2500 like the other generations). When it says "Up to", it means there will be something less powerful and expensive too. I hope.

Exactly, I think even fixing the Mac Pro will be more easy for everyone this time. You don't take panel out to see something, you take the case out to see everything.
 
lkrupp said:
I'm reading all the trashcan comments, the hate, the condescension, and I'm kinda chuckling to myself. You bozo savants were saying the same stuff about the iPad. Remember the feminine napkin comments? Remember the giant iPod comments? Remember the naysaying? Remember the condescension? Who had the last laugh then? How quickly you forget who really pwns you every time.
Click to expand...

This goes back over a decade, all the way to Apple's real turnaround. MacRumors posters always know better than Apple when it comes to innovative new products.

Apple's New Thing (iPod)
 
what "you want?"

ArtMooney said:
Look! It's the Mac Pro X! Just what everyone wanted - a smaller, lighter stationary computer that is only expandable via an expensive cable that no one supports.

We need tools, not shiny cases. I need expandability, not a table cluttered in expensive cables that don't plug into anything. I don't need a smaller, lighter stationary computer. I need more places to put hard drives, video cards and ram as I can afford it. I need a disk drive. Apple is killing me. For what I needed, wanted and waited patiently for so long for - I got not one single thing I can use. I understand trying to be innovative if they've found a new way to make an old tool better - but changing things we've all come to know, love and need into something useless and unrecognizable just for the sake of change is exasperating (see; Final Cut X). Sure, it's pretty. It'll look great under a table every time I accidentally kick it or get my foot tangled up in one of the 20 cables laying in a rat's nest next to it. Looking forward to the clutter of hard drive caddies, a RedRocket card enclosure, the bare LG BluRay writer tethered via a USB cable, the adapter array full of FireWire ports to access cameras and drives containing legacy projects…oh, wait, never mind. It also just occurred to me - how am I going to mount that thing in a rack??? How is any of this going to attach to shared storage when I'm gonna have to wait 2 years for a 3rd party to invent an impossibly expensive Fibre channel adapter? Seriously, does anyone there actually use these products when they're designing them or listen to customers - or do they look at the suggestion cards and do the opposite???

Not that any of this really matters because without a working version of Final Cut, I don't need one anyway. So, thanks for saving me a bunch of money I guess? 3 - 4K monitors. For who??? The high school students using FCPX won't be able to afford it, nor will they need that much real-estate to edit YouTube videos.

God help Apple this is a disaster. They do know 'Pro' is short for 'professional' right?

I'm so depressed. I waited for 5 years to get nothing I can use or wanted.
Click to expand...


Market to the "masses" live with the "classes" market to the "classes (you)" live where.....well you do. Which is probably in a trailer. With a big Corsair tower PC.

BTW, there are a lot of Thunderbolt products out on the market now, you just can't or don't want to pay for them yet. Can't blame you there, the licensing fee is horrible. But that has and will continue to get better.

I bet this thing will be an incredible machine. Not going to be cheap though. Probably more than the current 1, so north of $2495.

You literally waited 5 years for this announcement and now you're depressed? Wow. You really need a life.
 
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