Apple Ordered to Change App Store in Europe Again

[Krizoitz]

Apple is being monopolistic on their platform.

Tell me you don’t know what a monopoly is without saying you don’t know what a monopoly is.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Our president should instruct congress to devise equivalent “gatekeeper” over regulations that target eu companies.

il await for it with open arms.

The comment you're replying to was highly offensive and should be removed by MR mods.

Saying that, Apple is not ignoring the law. The EU simply does not like how Apple is implementing changes. In other words, it is possible Apple is completely in line with the law but the EU doesn't like how Apple followed the law. This is somewhat the letter versus the spirit of the law but it can simply be just different interpretations of what the law says and allows.

I'm not saying Apple is following the law. Apple's implementations might be illegal. However, Apple is not ignoring the law and might even be following it. We at least can recognize that the EU gets to make the law and interpret/enforce the law. Just as a business might not follow a law, the EU might not interpret or enforce a law in line with the actual text of the law. I'm not going to judge either way in this case.

incorect, reading it is very clear that apple have largely argued themselves in to a corner. all over the document apples own statmenst in their contracts and publicly contradicts how they define terms in the legal proceeding. EU doesn't "dislike" apples implementation, apples implementation is simply not according to the legal requirement, nor can the argue for many of their points adequately.

Apple does not have a 45% profit margin on devices. Apple's overall gross margin for the most recent quarter was about 45%. Products had a 36% gross margin. Services are about 70-75% (that high of a services gross profit margin is not unique to Apple -- for example, Microsoft is mostly services and has a whole company gross profit margin of 70% but that includes some products/hardware as well). Apple's net profit margins are about 25%.



In light of this, what you're saying is that Apple should raise prices of products to match that 45% profit margin (or continue to figure out ways to squeeze out more margins (lower trade-in values, higher upgrade costs, supply line efficiencies), and increase sales of its services to fight against the drop in services revenue that would come from "giving away" all SDKs.

Apple can increse the price however they want... or provide better services and get the same revenue anyway.

Ever wonder where all this "fine" monies go? Possibly lining a few folks personal pockets comes to mind. These amounts have not been chump change.

I would guess EU political folks are just as corrupt as our US versions.

There is a golden goose and they want some golden eggs.....

EU has spent zero dollars developing the Apple hardware, Apple software and Apple stores. They seem to lack nor have created any thing competitive to Apple's work. So they want it for free.

So, in my opinion, naturally they have their freeloader mentality as most of Europe has been protected by our military presence on their continent at virtually no cost to them since the end of WW II.

if apple just stopped being legally incompetent then they would be a golden goose... but hey it's their choice.

The circle I can’t square is the idea that Apple should be running the App Store at a loss (subsidising it from hardware sales etc) BUT there should also be competing app stores.

Competing App Stores cannot exist if they can’t undercut the Apple App Store on price. If the cost to a developer of putting an app in the Apple App Store is zero, there’s no reason for any other App Store to exist, and the competition the DMA so dearly seems to want to foster never materialises.

EU at no point requires the app store to be run at a loss. competing app stores can exist even with a cost of zero. a crappy store with subpar services that nobody want to use cant compete with a well liked store with excellent services

Having worked in a highly regulated environment, it is normal to work with the regulators to ensure compliance and clarify expectations. The EU playing 'bring me a rock' is not helpful, and we can argue ad-infinitum over what Apple's behavior represents, but in the end if the EU would say "you need to do X,' things could get done a lot more efficiently and with a lot less arguing.

The EU essentially said "prove your fees are reasonable" and Apple responded "just tell us what reasonable means" - which misses the entire point of principles-based regulation.

The EU provided clear principles - fees must be limited in time, scope, and proportional to actual value provided. Apple's complaint isn't about unclear guidance; it's about not wanting to do the work of justifying their fee structure. The regulator's job is to set the guardrails, not to run Apple's business for them. If Apple can't explain how their fees relate to the actual value of initial user acquisition, that suggests the problem isn't regulatory clarity - it's that their fees aren't defensible.

 

[koelsh]

This really needs to be something that's allowed for those that want it, even if gated behind a toggle and reboot and/or entire other "mode" to have your device in.

And apparently the EU or someone else will have to write a law stipulating that such a mode or toggle must be pixel for pixel, tap for tap, API for API, line of code for line of code the same as not entering such a mode since Apple is scared of a school zone crosswalk when it comes to correcting policies.

Otherwise they'd have a red flashing border with crawling text reminding the consumer every nanosecond they're *gasp* running software just like they do on a Mac (heaven forbid).

 

[siddavis]

Tarrifs are BS, period, from any party. It's nothing but relabeled taxes.

So by association, taxes are BS, period. Correct?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I suspect, if Apple cut its commission to below that of what competing App Stores had to charge to survive the competing stores would cry 'foul.' I suspect the 15% Apple charges small developers is not enough to keep competing stores viable unless they are backed by a large corporation who can afford to take the loss just to sell their app outside of Apple's eco-system; or can attract big developers who will cover the costs of hosting the small ones (unlikely, IMHO). But then, other than to poke at Apple there'd be no reason to open a store instead of just offering a download.

Frankly, allowing sideloading (or whatever you want to call it) would give Apple a lot more flexibility in not accepting apps, or charging fees, because they now have an alternate way to reach customers. You don't like the App Store's rules? Roll your own distribution system and payment acceptance method.

They would do absolutely nothing. If Apple charged developers zero to be on the AppStore while sideloading was allowed it would be fully legal

 

[cocky jeremy]

Ever wonder where all this "fine" monies go? Possibly lining a few folks personal pockets comes to mind. These amounts have not been chump change.

I would guess EU political folks are just as corrupt as our US versions.

There is a golden goose and they want some golden eggs.....

EU has spent zero dollars developing the Apple hardware, Apple software and Apple stores. They seem to lack nor have created any thing competitive to Apple's work. So they want it for free.

So, in my opinion, naturally they have their freeloader mentality as most of Europe has been protected by our military presence on their continent at virtually no cost to them since the end of WW II.

Like I said, we should sit, watch, and laugh when China/Russia decide to invade them.

 

[cocky jeremy]

Apple is being monopolistic on their platform.

Keywords being THEIR PLATFORM.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Did it mention sideloading as well? I don't give a **** about "alternative app stores" that are still censored by Apple.

The DMA allows for Apple’s protection of developers profits because no developer in the EU wants to see their Apple profits drop to the level of the profits they make from Android (if they even make an Android version) due to people finding it easy to acquire their wares for no cost.

 

[BaldiMac]

The EU essentially said "prove your fees are reasonable" and Apple responded "just tell us what reasonable means" - which misses the entire point of principles-based regulation.

Does it miss the point? Asking a regulator to define its terms seems reasonable to me.

The EU provided clear principles - fees must be limited in time, scope, and proportional to actual value provided. Apple's complaint isn't about unclear guidance; it's about not wanting to do the work of justifying their fee structure. The regulator's job is to set the guardrails, not to run Apple's business for them. If Apple can't explain how their fees relate to the actual value of initial user acquisition, that suggests the problem isn't regulatory clarity - it's that their fees aren't defensible.

Since it's clear to you... How exactly would you calculate the value to developers for access to the iOS platform?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple is being monopolistic on their platform. Monopolies lead to higher prices. The EU is fighting to increase price competition.

No one has found Apple guilty of maintaining a monopoly. Even the EU avoided the term and made up the novel term “gatekeeper” to avoid having to explain how a company can have a monopoly on the products they make.

 

[I7guy]

The point being it isn’t necessary for them to squeeze every penny possible from developers when they’re basically getting $20 billion free from Google? Just because you’re a for-profit company doesn’t mean your entire MO has to be extracting as much money as possible from people.

The developers should leave then if they do t like it. Why are you speaking on behalf of the devs anyway? I don’t understand MR posters who watch every penny a company makes and it’s a negative.

 

[turbineseaplane]

And apparently the EU or someone else will have to write a law stipulating that such a mode or toggle must be pixel for pixel, tap for tap, API for API, line of code for line of code the same as not entering such a mode since Apple is scared of a school zone crosswalk when it comes to correcting policies.

Otherwise they'd have a red flashing border with crawling text reminding the consumer every nanosecond they're *gasp* running software just like they do on a Mac (heaven forbid).

Yeah, given that we have the safe, successful, secure and flexible macOS model right in front of our faces from the same exact company, it makes Apple's protestations about all this really ring hollow.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Exactly. And if they did this the EU would come at Apple because it's "unfair competition" that Apple is able to subsidize its App Store with hardware sales.​

Heads: fine Apple. Tails: Fine Apple.

Nothing of that is unfair. They aren’t undercutting anyone as nobody is purchasing a store.

From the document:

If an app developer wants to engage in a specific form of communication and conclusion of contracts following steering, whether within or outside the app, then Apple shall "allow" it to do so. ​

​

This means that Apple should not do anything that would prevent that this specific form of communication or contracting effectively works. For instance, if app developers want to use a particular technology or means in order to inform users, Apple must ensure that end users will see the information in the way intended by the app developer. ​

​

If, for example, the app developer wants to inform users via a pop up message with sound explaining what actions the user should follow in order to benefit from a promotion, then Apple should ensure that the end user is actually shown that pop up message with sound explaining what actions s/he should follow in order to benefit from a promotion.​

 

[I7guy]

Nothing of that is unfair. They aren’t undercutting anyone as nobody is purchasing a store.
From the document:
If an app developer wants to engage in a specific form of communication and conclusion of contracts following steering, whether within or outside the app, then Apple shall "allow" it to do so. This means that Apple should not do anything that would prevent that this specific form of communication or contracting effectively works. For instance, if app developers want to use a particular technology or means in order to inform users, Apple must ensure that end users will see the information in the way intended by the app developer. If, for example, the app developer wants to inform users via a pop up message with sound explaining what actions the user should follow in order to benefit from a promotion, then Apple should ensure that the end user is actually shown that pop up message with sound explaining what actions s/he should follow in order to benefit from a promotion.

All of the holding doesn’t mean anything is crystal clear. The eu is playing whack a
Mole or try it before you buy it.

 

[Dr McKay]

At this point Apple should just leave the EU.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Like I said, we should sit, watch, and laugh when China/Russia decide to invade them.

This is sick
You are openly "laughing" at the concept of the EU being invaded by China/Russia?

This is abhorrent content that should not be here.

 

[surferfb]

From the document:

If an app developer wants to engage in a specific form of communication and conclusion of contracts following steering, whether within or outside the app, then Apple shall "allow" it to do so. ​

​

This means that Apple should not do anything that would prevent that this specific form of communication or contracting effectively works. For instance, if app developers want to use a particular technology or means in order to inform users, Apple must ensure that end users will see the information in the way intended by the app developer. ​

​

If, for example, the app developer wants to inform users via a pop up message with sound explaining what actions the user should follow in order to benefit from a promotion, then Apple should ensure that the end user is actually shown that pop up message with sound explaining what actions s/he should follow in order to benefit from a promotion.​

That sounds awful. Of course it’s coming from people who think cookie banners and browser choice screens are a good idea. What if the user has its phone muted, or has said I don’t want that pop up message? Does Apple still have to ensure it?

The EU has no taste, no inkling on good user experiences no idea how competition actually works, and isn’t qualified to be regulating iOS at all. They won’t be happy until iOS is a slightly more attractive skin on top of Android.

 

[wanha]

Nah, it's too tasty for that.

Aye, worth the 30% surcharge

 

[omenatarhuri]

Does anyone actually use the other app stores? I literally don’t know anyone that does so and I work in tech.

 

[Dr McKay]

This is sick
You are openly "laughing" at the concept of the EU being invaded by China/Russia?

This is abhorrent content that should not be here.

You don’t get it, they went against a corporation he likes. It’s a totally level headed and reasoned response to wish for death and destruction on 2/3 of a continent when this happens.

 

[verdi1987]

How was it ill-gotten? It was a well known business arrangement that was well published. Google gained a lot from that arrangement.

Didn’t it come out in court testimony? And accidentally, at that. It was supposed to be redacted.

 

[bluecoast]

what do you think AI is going to run on? one of those iPod shuffle devices worn on a necklace? 😂

AI assistants are increasingly going to become our primary computing interface, I contend.

Google have a highly functional genAI personal assistant in Gemini.

Apple have Siri, a punchline to a joke.

Let's hope that Apple announce a partnership at WWDC between them and Anthropic or something.

Or maybe let ChatGPT take over completely from Siri.

 

[bluecoast]

Apple doesn't break out the EU in their quarterly financials. There was statement that the EU was 7% of App Store revenue a while ago. Assuming that percentage holds across Apple's products, that would put the EU well behind China.


Sure, but that doesn't make the EU Apple's second biggest market in the world.

I'm just a guy who sounds off on a tech forum, so I'm not about to start looking for figures to back up my argument.

However, I would contend that the EU is big enough that Apple would never ever pull out of it.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Does it miss the point? Asking a regulator to define its terms seems reasonable to me.

The terms have been defined… as you can read across the 60~ or so pages.
EU has explained the principles for WHY

”fees should match the actual value of connecting developers with users.”​

Eu have explained the principles for HOW

”Demonstrate that your fees are proportionate and time-limited.”​

Apple just hasn't done the work to justify their current approach against these clear criteria…
What they're really asking is for EU to set their prices for them, which crosses the line from regulatory guidance into business management.

Since it's clear to you... How exactly would you calculate the value to developers for access to the iOS platform?

I’m not Tim Cook. But if Apple can’t explain how they got to their fees without using vague principles like great value without quantifying it using their own data…that’s a compliance failure. EU isn’t asking them to invent mathematics.

And the question isn't whether I can calculate it within the principle defined for them. If someone can't explain how their fees relate to value provided, that's usually because the fees aren't defensible, not because the concept of proportional value is impossible to determine.

They are just deflecting the burden of proof they're required to meet by refusing to provide evidence that they believe proves their case. By just giving the answer (13- 27% and 50 cent per download etc) but not how they got there

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm just a guy who sounds off on a tech forum, so I'm not about to start looking for figures to back up my argument.

Then don't make the argument. Last thing the internet needs is more made up facts.

However, I would contend that the EU is big enough that Apple would never ever pull out of it.

I agree.