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samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Apple mocked the court because they disagreed with the courts decision that they should apologise. They disagreed with the courts decision because they thought that they should have won in the first place. And that was about whether or not Samsung copied them. This is not tangential. This is a direct corollary of the first verdict.

No. The posting was not an apology. It was a statement (did you even read it) that clarified the ruling. The fact that you think it's an apology is personalizing it.

And thinking you should have won, stating you should have one is different than what they said - which was misleading about the verdict. I think you have some reading comprehension issues - or you are just skimming articles/reading headlines.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
No. The posting was not an apology. It was a statement (did you even read it) that clarified the ruling. The fact that you think it's an apology is personalizing it.

And thinking you should have won, stating you should have one is different than what they said - which was misleading about the verdict. I think you have some reading comprehension issues - or you are just skimming articles/reading headlines.

Like I said, saying misleading things about the verdict is the point where I think they did it wrong. But mocking the court isn't. They could have easily mocked the court without the misleading part. And I keep using the word apology because that's the word everyone has been using. I wasn't personalising it, simply repeating it.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Like I said, I don't think what Apple did was wrong, by that I mean mocking the court. But I think it was wrong that they actually lied while doing it. The cases they mentioned didn't have anything to do with the U.K. case and different patents were involved. I'd prefer if they mocked the court by simply putting the reference to the judge where it was said that iPad was cooler and left out the rest. After all, it's not said anywhere that you cannot mock courts or judges.



I didn't think for one second that what Apple did was following the courts mandate "just fine". I wonder if anyone did.

Since Apple got into the legal issue in the first place for mocking the court - and were mandated to post a specific message - you think it's ok for Apple to not go with the spirit of the judgement and mock the court again? OK. :rolleyes:

And yes - there are people in this thread and countless others who believe Apple adhered to the ruling. YOU just wrote that you think they should/could have just mocked the court in their website ad. So clearly you seem "OK" with not following the courts mandate. WOW.
 

turtlez

macrumors 6502a
Jun 17, 2012
977
0
Anyone else notice so much of the apple news lately is about these legal games and fighting with their partners, suppliers, competitors.

Apple has really lost their ability to focus on product and would rather get into school-yard squabbles than focus on their business

Apple 2012 = Microsoft 1998.

Apple's legal team don't do the product designing lol..

----------

I think Steve Jobs left behind some great legacies at Apple. I hope his crusade against phone companies who use Android is one legacy that the current leadership lets go.

I agree, it might not be much of a financial loss to Apple but funding a competitor really sucks. Especially when most of the world can see the blatant copying going on
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Apple lost their suit. Instead of stating that they would try and appeal or that they didn't agree with the decision - they openly mocked the court.

Let's add to the Timeline here :

9th of July : Apple lost the lawsuit about Community Design Registration '607 to Samsung in the UK.

Even after this ruling, they kept the media pressure, stating that Samsung had copied them.

18th of July : Judge grants an injunction to Samsung to prevent Apple from spreading confusion about the earlier verdict, so that people won't believe there is an legitimacy problem with Samsung products. This injunction includes relief in the form of Apple posting the results of the 9th on their website and in printed publications.

Following this, Apple files for an appeal on both rulings. Requirements for the advertisements in the 18th's ruling are suspended during appeal.

18th of October : Apple loses both appeals. 3 Judges uphold the original ruling about non-infringement and also agree that Apple's media behavior following the ruling requires relief to Samsung. They also agree with the original ruling's legal basis for such relief.

Then we get the childish games. First the "BUT!" message that includes "false" information in the form of stating that Apple has won victories in other countries against Samsung. The goal of the message was to remove confusion, but since Apple's victories have nothing to do with Community Design registration '607 or the US equivalent, Design Patent '889, the court finds that Apple's message is misleading and confusing, thus not following the original spirit of the ruling.

When asked to change it, Apple replies it will take 24 hours to take down the message and 14 days to put in the new one. This raises a bit of ire from the court, who impose a 48 hour limit.

Then the Javascript bit, to push the message off to the bottom of the page.

From the court ruling of the 9th of November, highlighting why Apple failed to comply and why more remedies are needed, Samsung even went so far as to quote "Apple fanboys" on the Register's site :

Samsung has supported its application by citation from a large number of press and web reports showing that the effect of the Contested Notice has indeed been to undermine what was intended. Our attention was specifically drawn, for instance, to an online magazine called "The Register":

APPLE : SCREW YOU, BRITS, everyone else says Samsung copied us

Apple has complied with a UK court order by admitting on its website that Samsung 's Galaxy Tab did not rip off the patented iPad design. High Court Judge Birss had instructed Apple to publish a statement online and in print that the South Korean electronics giant had not infringed Cupertino's patent.

The statement can be found via a small link labelled " Samsung/Apple UK judgement" on Apple 's UK homepage and is a mealy mouthed six-paragraph account of the litigation over Apple 's registered design.

It's funny, because it's the same kind of postings we have here, basically people have not read the rulings, don't understand the case and just think it's about "copying the iPad", thus demonstrating the confusion Apple is creating by its messages. Your own words used against your fandom. Harsh.

Also, people confused about what was false need to read the ruling, it's plainly detailed what the court took exception to, the same thing we've been trying to explain :

Here what Apple added was false and misleading. I turn to analyse it. The first sentence reads:

However, in a case tried in Germany regarding the same patent, the court found that Samsung engaged in unfair competition by copying the iPad design.

That is false in the following ways:

(a) "Regarding the same patent." No patent of any kind has been involved in Germany or here, still less "the same patent."

(b) As regards the Community Registered Design, the German Courts held that neither the Galaxy 10.1 nor the 8.9 infringed it. As to the 7.7 there was for a short while a German provisional order holding that it infringed. Whether there was a jurisdiction to make that order is very doubtful for the reasons given in my earlier judgment but in any event the order had been (or should have been) discharged by the time the Contested Notice was published.

(c) There is a finding and injunction, limited to Germany alone, that the 10.1 and 8.9 infringe German unfair competition law. But the statement is likely to be read as of more general application.
The second sentence reads:

A U.S. jury also found Samsung guilty of infringing on Apple's design and utility patents, awarding over one billion U.S. dollars in damages to Apple Inc.

That is misleading by omission. For the US jury specifically rejected Apple 's claim that the US design patent corresponding to the Community Design in issue here was infringed. The average reader would think that the UK decision was at odds with that in the US. Far from that being so, it was in accordance with it.

The third sentence reads:

So while the U.K. court did not find Samsung guilty of infringement, other courts have recognized that in the course of creating its Galaxy tablet, Samsung wilfully copied Apple 's far more popular iPad.

This is calculated to produce huge confusion. The false innuendo is that the UK court came to a different conclusion about copying, which is not true for the UK court did not form any view about copying. There is a further false innuendo that the UK court's decision is at odds with decisions in other countries whereas that is simply not true.

Can't get clearer than that now.

Now, as to why all this "media hoopla" Apple generated actually hurt them, the "They should have kept their mouths shuts" bit, well, that did hurt them :

Given our finding that the Contested Notice did not comply with our order and did not achieve what was intended there was no dispute but that we should order it be removed. There was dispute as to what should go up in its place. Apple contended that no more was needed on its home page. We thought otherwise. The Contested Notice had had over a million hits.

I'm pretty sure MacRumors, AppleInsider, 9to5, CultofMac and other publications "reporting" on "Apple's playfulness" with the ruling sure helped generate those million hits... Too bad I guess.

So, Apple's big mouth hurt them, then it's fan base hurt them even more by rallying behind their big mouth and generating publicity, not to mention more confusion by them not understanding the verdict. Yes, everyone here who posted "Samsung copied the iPad, it's known!" while ignoring what the case was really about actually hurt Apple.

Good job guys.

Last tidbit from the 9th's ruling, this one is particularly telling :

I hope that the lack of integrity involved in this incident is entirely atypical of Apple .

Lack of integrity folks. That's what you're defending when you keep saying the U.K. court is to blame.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
This injunction includes relief in the form of Apple posting the results of the 9th on their website and in printed publications.

I wanted to bold this because people keep referring to this statement as an apology. It's not. It's a statement of the verdict. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
Since Apple got into the legal issue in the first place for mocking the court - and were mandated to post a specific message - you think it's ok for Apple to not go with the spirit of the judgement and mock the court again? OK. :rolleyes:

And yes - there are people in this thread and countless others who believe Apple adhered to the ruling. YOU just wrote that you think they should/could have just mocked the court in their website ad. So clearly you seem "OK" with not following the courts mandate. WOW.

Yes I'm ok. Of course I am ok. I'm not saying Apple should go ahead and have the judge killed. But if they have a "smart ass" way to mock the court, they should do it indeed because I do think that Apple should have won that case. And eventually they did follow the courts mandate, which they were going to do anyway. They just had their fun first. If they were "keen" on not following the mandate, they wouldn't have done it later either.

After all Apple is founded by some guy who mocked and belittled everyone, even if that was the first lady of France. So of course they are going to mock and belittle one U.K. court if they disagree with it. This kind of attitude is one of the things that made Apple what it was in the first place. If anything, I'm more angry about them using the legal system to try to get justice in the first place. That's more "anti Apple" than them mocking a court.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
I wanted to bold this because people keep referring to this statement as an apology. It's not. It's a statement of the verdict. Nothing more, nothing less.

Exactly, the initial July 18th ruling had no requirements for an apology. It only had requirements to post the correct information and link to the ruling.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
I'm pretty sure MacRumors, AppleInsider, 9to5, CultofMac and other publications "reporting" on "Apple's playfulness" with the ruling sure helped generate those million hits... Too bad I guess.

One million hits for a link that actually said the U.K. judge thought the iPad was cooler? That's not a loss for Apple. That's just a proof that Apple indeed messed with the courts and people saw it.

So, Apple's big mouth hurt them, then it's fan base hurt them even more by rallying behind their big mouth and generating publicity, not to mention more confusion by them not understanding the verdict. Yes, everyone here who posted "Samsung copied the iPad, it's known!" while ignoring what the case was really about actually hurt Apple.

Apple knew precisely what they were doing. They knew that it'd be publicly discussed that they mocked the court. Nobody in their right mind would think that it was "just fine" the way Apple dealt with the courts order. If they think that it was the best way, then maybe they were onto something. Whether this whole thing ends up hurting Apple is something we'll probably never know. But the point is, it was their decision to stir up the pot.

Lack of integrity folks. That's what you're defending when you keep saying the U.K. court is to blame.

If you are blaming the court, what you are doing is simply blaming someone because they did their job. It's a useless blame. Another court with another judge probably would have done the same in the U.K.
 

Renzatic

Suspended

Don't you think they're handling themselves a bit poorly? An issue arose, it went to court, Apple lost, and now they're being poor sports about it. If they didn't agree with the decision, there were dozens of ways they could've handled the situation without resorting to unprofessional behavior.

Being a headstrong maverick is respectable. Being a childish prat? Not so much.
 

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Don't you think they're handling themselves a bit poorly? An issue arose, it went to court, Apple lost, and now they're being poor sports about it. If they didn't agree with the decision, there were dozens of ways they could've handled the situation without resorting to unprofessional behavior.

Being a headstrong maverick is respectable. Being a childish prat? Not so much.

*Taps the court's opinion of Apple*

I hope that the lack of integrity involved in this incident is entirely atypical of Apple .

Of course, some people will just spin and spin and spin for pages and pages and argue "it was all part of the plan". Part of a plan that ended up costing actual money to Apple (court costs, newspaper ads) and bad publicity (website "apology", newspaper ads) and time (extra lawyer time in front of judges for motions resulting of the "apology request" beyond the actual trial). Yeah right. Sounds like "the plan" backfired.

That's why I have those people on ignore, I suggest you guys do to, or this will quickly turn into a multi page affair.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
Don't you think they're handling themselves a bit poorly? An issue arose, it went to court, Apple lost, and now they're being poor sports about it. If they didn't agree with the decision, there were dozens of ways they could've handled the situation without resorting to unprofessional behavior.


Poorly? Somewhat yes. There are tons of "smart ass" ways to mock a court without being misleading. If they worked harder I think they could have found a statement which both mocked the court and also wasn't something that the court could object to.

Is this behaviour unprofessional? I don't really see it much differently than appealing. After all, appealing is saying to the court "I know what you decided but I still think you are wrong".
 
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samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Yes I'm ok. Of course I am ok. I'm not saying Apple should go ahead and have the judge killed. But if they have a "smart ass" way to mock the court, they should do it indeed because I do think that Apple should have won that case. And eventually they did follow the courts mandate, which they were going to do anyway. They just had their fun first. If they were "keen" on not following the mandate, they wouldn't have done it later either.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. At least in my opinion. You say you don't agree with what they did but then say you agree with that they did.

Apple's plan backfired. Most people aren't talking about how amazing Apple is for standing up to the courts or Samsung regarding this issue.

And before someone chimes in with "no press is bad press" - I'll remind you that Kevin Clash and David Petraeus would argue that this week.

----------

Is this behaviour unprofessional? I don't really see it much differently than appealing.

Well here you go. This is why, in my opinion, you're wrong. It's very different.
 

TrikieD

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2012
14
0
Yes I'm ok. Of course I am ok. I'm not saying Apple should go ahead and have the judge killed. But if they have a "smart ass" way to mock the court, they should do it indeed because I do think that Apple should have won that case. And eventually they did follow the courts mandate, which they were going to do anyway. They just had their fun first. If they were "keen" on not following the mandate, they wouldn't have done it later either.

Hmm. So Apple's "smart" way was to post a number of untruths (let's not use the word "lies") about the rulings and status of some other cases and to attempt to confuse the statement. As the statement was supposed to remove ambiguity (not to apologise as is often wrongly stated) this clearly subverted the spirit of the judgement. Then they thought it would be "smart" to send their representative to court with an untrue statement (let's not call it a "lie") about how long it would take to change their website which led an appeal court judge to comment on Apple's "lack of integrity".

So which of the word's "smart" and "ass" do you think apply here, exactly?
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
Of course, some people will just spin and spin and spin for pages and pages and argue "it was all part of the plan". Part of a plan that ended up costing actual money to Apple (court costs, newspaper ads) and bad publicity (website "apology", newspaper ads) and time (extra lawyer time in front of judges for motions resulting of the "apology request" beyond the actual trial). Yeah right. Sounds like "the plan" backfired.

It was of course part of the plan. If anyone thinks that Apple left the first statement to some PR agency and Tim Cook didn't even know what was being post, they are being naive. Whether the plan backfired or not is simply not possible to figure out for me. It's likely that it backfired, but nobody in this forum has the means or the capacity to decide such thing for sure.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
I suspect the PR value of doing it as they did far more than offset the minimal difference in lawyer fees awarded.

The judge is pissy because Apple properly stands by its position despite his judgment and despite the judicial commentary (in the judgment and following the judgment). Apple has free speech rights. As for compliance with the order, I think it is demonstratable they did what it said and simply added commentary exactly as the judge did.

The fact this judgment is contrary to that in all other jurisdictions so far is indicative of differing laws and rules and differing basic sense the judicial has on these sorts of cases.

This judgment was the outlier, and its judicial commentary was an exceptional outlier, so why shouldn't it also have massive outside of the box post-judgment rulings as well?

This applies whether or not you agree with the ruling or no matter what side of the case you tend to associate with.

Rocketman
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Yeah right. Sounds like "the plan" backfired.

Spectacularly. Despite what we're seeing around here, I'm sure they've lost a bit of face in front of the tech community at large. It's such an incredibly petty move on their part, I can't imagine why anyone would show support for it. Fans or no.

That's why I have those people on ignore, I suggest you guys do to, or this will quickly turn into a multi page affair.

Eh. I can't do that. I'm always afraid I might miss out on something fun and interesting if I do. :p
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
The fact this judgment is contrary to that in all other jurisdictions so far is indicative of differing laws and rules and differing basic sense the judicial has on these sorts of cases.


The fact is that this judgment is exactly the same in all the jurisdictions. Perhaps you didn't read none of the prior posts of this threads.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
Hmm. So Apple's "smart" way was to post a number of untruths (let's not use the word "lies") about the rulings and status of some other cases and to attempt to confuse the statement. As the statement was supposed to remove ambiguity (not to apologise as is often wrongly stated) this clearly subverted the spirit of the judgement. Then they thought it would be "smart" to send their representative to court with an untrue statement (let's not call it a "lie") about how long it would take to change their website which led an appeal court judge to comment on Apple's "lack of integrity".

So which of the word's "smart" and "ass" do you think apply here, exactly?
When I said smart ass I was talking about the reference to the judge saying the iPad is cooler in their first statement or the script that hides the statement link on the bottom. Like I said, I didn't like that they included some misleading things in it.
 

TrikieD

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2012
14
0
Is this behaviour unprofessional? I don't really see it much differently than appealing. After all, appealing is saying to the court "I know what you decided but I still think you are wrong".

Do you really believe that? To appeal a legal judgement you can't just say "you're wrong, I'm right, let's have another go." You have to state up-front what your complaint about the original trial was. You have to make a case. Then an appeal court rules on the case you've made. Please, please, please READ either the original judgement or the original appeal court judgement (they are very clear English) and then explain WHICH bit is wrong and WHY it is wrong.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Apple has free speech rights. As for compliance with the order, I think it is demonstratable they did what it said and simply added commentary exactly as the judge did.

Actually, free speech as we know it here in the US isn't a thing in the UK. And even if it were, it wouldn't directly apply to this. They have every right to talk about how stupid they think the judgement is to the press, but that doesn't extend to the language of the apology itself. They had very specific guidelines that needed following. They decided to play fast and loose with the judgement, and...well...here we are.

Put simply, the statement is a punishment handed down by the court. They have no room for maneuvering here.

Also, why is my animated gif not animated? :mad:

Sock_Monkey.gif
 
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TrikieD

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2012
14
0
When I said smart ass I was talking about the reference to the judge saying the iPad is cooler in their first statement or the script that hides the statement link on the bottom. Like I said, I didn't like that they included some misleading things in it.

Here's the thing. The appeal court didn't care about Apple including the "cool" statement. They could have made that their wallpaper as far as they cared. The complaint is about the other statements they made. The only comment they made about the cool statement is that the publicity of it made them more sure that the mandated statement was a valid order.
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
You seem to be contradicting yourself. At least in my opinion. You say you don't agree with what they did but then say you agree with that they did.

Not really. Maybe you are the one with the reading comprehension problem. I probably said five times in the last 30 minutes that I'm ok with them mocking the court, I'm not ok with them posting misleading things while they do it.

Apple's plan backfired. Most people aren't talking about how amazing Apple is for standing up to the courts or Samsung regarding this issue.

I have no idea about what "most" people are talking but probably not about anything related to this.

And before someone chimes in with "no press is bad press" - I'll remind you that Kevin Clash and David Petraeus would argue that this week.

I don't think that any press is good press. That's my opinion. And as far as I know, social scientists don't have any clue yet either. So it's all up to opinions on that one.


Well here you go. This is why, in my opinion, you're wrong. It's very different.

It's somewhat different, but not very different. In both cases you are saying that the judge decided wrong and should have known better.
 

TrikieD

macrumors newbie
Nov 2, 2012
14
0
Actually, free speech as we know it here in the US isn't a thing in the UK. And even if it were, it wouldn't directly apply to this. They have every right to talk about how stupid they think the judgement is to the press, but that doesn't extend to the language of the apology itself. They had very specific guidelines that needed following. They decided to play fast and loose with the judgement, and...well...here we are.

Put simply, the statement is a punishment handed down by the court. They have no room for maneuvering here.

Actually I think they probably did. As I understand things, the order was to make a statement correcting what the court saw as incorrect statements made by Apple previously. The aim was to remove ambiguity. It seems to have been adding references to the other cases which the appeal court saw as misleading and intended to give the impression that the UK judgement is inconsistent with others that upset them.

Also, why is my animated gif not animated? :mad:

I've no idea. Perhaps it's tired?
 

iBug2

macrumors 601
Jun 12, 2005
4,533
857
Here's the thing. The appeal court didn't care about Apple including the "cool" statement. They could have made that their wallpaper as far as they cared. The complaint is about the other statements they made. The only comment they made about the cool statement is that the publicity of it made them more sure that the mandated statement was a valid order.

And that's why I think Apple played the cards a bit wrong. Since the court didn't have much issue with the "cool" statement, that's what Apple should have included in the first place and nothing else. Then the court wouldn't object on it, and Apple would have a statement from the court, which both followed the mandate, and also had a quirky way of saying that the court thought the iPad was cooler. It would have been the perfect balance of bad and good press together.
 
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