Apple Outlines Milestone on Eliminating Conflict Minerals in 2016 Supplier Responsibility Report

[smacrumon]

For a company like Apple that seems to portray an air of simplicity, it’s operations are terribly complex and destructive.

It’s a basic choice. You can either decide to structure your operations in a simple manner. Pay every employee that touches your product during its manufacture a proper wage with fair working hours and proper working conditions and absorb the extra cost in your billions of profit each year.

Or, you can decide to go down the mess of a route that Apple is in, paying is extended workforce poorly, with terrible working conditions and long hours, and ultimately exposing all Apple shareholders to future compensation claims for inhumane working conditions.

Sadly the reality is that Apple chooses the complex and nasty route with its operations and is contrary to the marketing it puts out pretending the opposite.

 

[SomeSecurityGuy]

For a company like Apple that seems to portray an air of simplicity, it’s operations are terribly complex and destructive.

It’s a basic choice. You can either decide to structure your operations in a simple manner. Pay every employee that touches your product during its manufacture a proper wage with fair working hours and proper working conditions and absorb the extra cost in your billions of profit each year.

Or, you can decide to go down the mess of a route that Apple is in, paying is extended workforce poorly, with terrible working conditions and long hours, and ultimately exposing all Apple shareholders to future compensation claims for inhumane working conditions.

Sadly the reality is that Apple chooses the complex and nasty route with its operations and is contrary to the marketing it puts out pretending the opposite.

Apple doesn't pay the employees of suppliers.

 

[smacrumon]

[doublepost=1459497517][/doublepost]

Kind of off topic, but it's a bit funny to see the worker has a number on his chest rather than a name tag.

Say what you want, but I like this company.

Sure, profits are they target, but there are several ways to gain profits. I like Apple's way.
[doublepost=1459363090][/doublepost]
we don't know if the number identifies the worker or the department he is working in...

Somehow I don’t think the image is a typical representation of workers in the factory.

“Apple’s way” is still severely lacking. It’s wishful thinking the number represents a “department” number, more likely an employee number, no name, just employee number. The fine stripes and number is reminiscent of a prison uniform, but with an Apple-esque styling that is fit for website propaganda.
[doublepost=1459498153][/doublepost]

Wrong. Apple’s extended offshore factory workers should get equivalent or better working conditions and pay. Let’s clear up the hyperbole and some inaccuracies.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.

Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.


So a summary:

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are receiving a tiny fraction of the equivalent wage in the USA. (< 8%, $3590 less in wages each month.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are working up to and more than twice the permitted hours than the equivalent in the USA. (150% - 250%, 20 - 60 extra hours worked per week.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers will need to pay at least a quarter more than customers in the USA to buy an iPhone. (127%, $111 USD more.)


There’s no question, that’s corporate exploitation. No one can deny that here. Apple has nothing to be proud of with this current record and shareholders should be worried about future claims for compensation. This doesn’t even factor in other missing working conditions at Apple’s offshore factories.

Apple’s offshore factory workers are working incredibly longer hours, for incredibly less pay. Clearly Apple’s offshore factory workers are being exploited, getting a morally bankrupt raw deal out of life.

Just because Apple’s employees work under a shell company such as “Foxconn” or “Pegatron”, does’t mean they aren’t Apple employees. If your sole job daily is to manufacture parts and products for Apple, guess what, you’re an Apple employee no matter how many shell companies your employment structure is buried under. These people deserve at least the equivalent or better working conditions and wages to those working in the USA.

I’m speaking here for those who can’t speak for themselves and because I’m disgusted with anyone trying to defend Apple’s engagement in poor practice. Apple can do much better.

EDIT: I've received a complaint for not providing sources. Actually, I did mention the agencies for the sources below, but I now provide links:

Apple
http://www.apple.com

BBC

China File
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting...hina-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn

China Labor Watch
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107

CNET
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wag...persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ndia-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/

Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

Market Watch
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it...-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10

Apple doesn't pay them Foxconn does. You can't compare China and the USA. For one thing cost of living is vastly different.

So you think there should be a global wage? Who decides what that wage is?

How was it irrelevant? You play on emotions but lack understanding of basic economics.

Foxconn employees are not Apple employees. Do you know how much they're paid? I don't. Why are you assuming they're not paid a decent wage?

So since the clients at my work pay us then I work for them and should get their pay right.

Nope I work for a company that supplies a service to our clients. The clients have no say in who gets paid what and what level. That is determined by our company. Clients can make request in contracts on certain things but it is not about pay. If they wanted to do that then they would just do everything in-house at higher cost.

As like Foxconn we have more than one client thus can do the job cheaper than if the client did it themselves because we have the resources and technology development already in cost for us.

How is it cherry picking when it's the meat of your argument? You are arguing that Apple should establish a global wage independent of cost of living in a worker's location, no? What contractors should Apple be provided insight into their worker's compensation packages? That seems like a quite a privacy violation. I've worked as a contractor before. The notion that a client would demand to know my personal compensation and decide that they feel is appropriate for it is ridiculous. Your idea is nonsensical and impossible.

No, all lives are invaluable. But prices and wages should always be set by markets. Never by fiat. Setting a wage based on someone "knowing better", always eventually results in more harm than good.

False. Wait... No. Not just false. Unequivocally false.

If it were true, then the following statements would also be true.
Sony employees are Apple employees.
Samsung employees are Apple employees.
LG employees are Apple employees.
Cirrus Logic employees are Apple employees.
Skyworks Solutions employees are Apple employees.
Taiwan Semiconductor employees are Apple employees.

All of these companies supply (or have supplied) various components for Apple's hardware systems, ranging from batteries, to displays, to capacitors, to circuit boards, and more. The rationalle you use would require then that:

'Some random mine where the coal used to generate the electricity used to run the computers that control the ore smelter that produced the steel used in the creation of the shipping container that a supplier used to move 80 tons of surface-mount diodes to a warehouse used by Foxconn' are Apple employees. Eventually, everyone in the world become 'Apple employees'.

A company does not employ their suppliers' employees.

This is a delusional socialistic pipe dream.

It's amazing to me to see the hubris of western people. We think our values, our culture, etc. are so superior to other nations and think we should be putting out noses everywhere. I'm not saying that companies shouldn't do their best to make sure that their SUPPLIERS act responsibly, but sitting here behind our two thousand dollar machines, we have no idea what is going on and no context to these issues.

Do you think that all those Chinese workers are thanking the US for reducing their work hours? Many of those workers have come in from farms to try to earn money to send back to their families. They live on site and when they aren't working, they aren't going to the movies or out to nice restaurants, they are sitting in their dorms waiting for their next shift to start. Their pay has been decreased because instead of working 80 hours in a week they can only work 60 hours in a week. So, it will take longer now before they can go home to their families, because all they are doing is trying to make as much money as quickly as possible so they can go home.

That is just one tiny example of how people here know nothing about real conditions around the world. But you can all pat yourselves on the back and say "I did my good deed." So, Apple doesn't buy conflict minerals anymore. I guess all those children who were working in the mines are now back in their air-conditioned schools working towards getting into college now. Or, maybe now they had to find even worse work because their choice was work in the mines or starve.

60 hour workweek max? This is what Apple considers to be good.

Slavedrivers

Is this post a joke?

If workers in the Far East were paid the same as those in the US, Apple and all these companies would have all their factories in the US. There would be zero incentive to have factories in other countries.

Lots of companies use Foxconn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers

I imagine Foxconn workers assemble all sorts of products during the year as demand fluctuates.

Why should Apple be the baseline for what they earn?

Apple doesn't pay the employees of suppliers.

[doublepost=1459498295][/doublepost]

You're reaching with that.

But they have had a very large impact on employment. Still has nothing to do with Foxconn employees being Apple employees. It's the same vendor relationship as any other company.

Is this post a joke?
If workers in the Far East were paid the same as those in the US, Apple and all these companies would have all their factories in the US. There would be zero incentive to have factories in other countries.

Some time ago, a lot of Apple’s manufacturing occurred in the USA. Take the iMac for instance, it was manufactured in the USA by Apple employees for many years. Today the most standard order iMacs are manufactured in offshore Apple factories. These offshore factory workers are still Apple employees, still manufacturing Apple products, the only difference is that they are paid so very poorly, working many, many more hours of overtime, working in poorer working conditions.

Apple could easily ramp up production inside the USA as they do in China, the only difference is that Apple wants to pay the least amount it can for production and work every inch out of the factory workers located in special economic zones guarded by security. Not open not transparent operations clearly. Factories such as Foxconn are moving to places like India because wages are even cheaper. Apple has been a wholly complicit partner in this and a direct or indirect contributor to driving down wages and conditions through its factory negotiations. It’s a shameful aspect of Apple. It’s a reason I hold on to my devices as long as possible. Apple could be much better. It needs to end this entrenched form of discrimination and this modern pseudo slavery.
[doublepost=1459498382][/doublepost]

So since the clients at my work pay us then I work for them and should get their pay right.

Nope I work for a company that supplies a service to our clients. The clients have no say in who gets paid what and what level. That is determined by our company. Clients can make request in contracts on certain things but it is not about pay. If they wanted to do that then they would just do everything in-house at higher cost.

As like Foxconn we have more than one client thus can do the job cheaper than if the client did it themselves because we have the resources and technology development already in cost for us.

How is it cherry picking when it's the meat of your argument? You are arguing that Apple should establish a global wage independent of cost of living in a worker's location, no? What contractors should Apple be provided insight into their worker's compensation packages? That seems like a quite a privacy violation. I've worked as a contractor before. The notion that a client would demand to know my personal compensation and decide that they feel is appropriate for it is ridiculous. Your idea is nonsensical and impossible.

There is no privacy issue here, just a straw argument. Thanks for your own experience, but I suspect your client and supplier relationship doesn’t lead to compensation that is less than 10% of the amounts typically expected.
[doublepost=1459498423][/doublepost]

No, all lives are invaluable. But prices and wages should always be set by markets. Never by fiat. Setting a wage based on someone "knowing better", always eventually results in more harm than good.

Yes, all lives are valuable. “..always eventually results in more harm than good” is a ridiculous statement. No, paying people correctly is not harmful. What is harmful is paying people < 10% the typical payment and working them more than double the maximum hours.
[doublepost=1459498458][/doublepost]

Yep, but they just quietly put it somewhere on their websites, whereas Apple often tries to take credit for things they're not always directly responsible for.

For example, Conflict Minerals reports are mandated for many companies in the U.S. It's not a choice. So to save money in compliance, they banded together:

The Conflict Free Sourcing Initiative (CFSI) is sponsored by a group of 150+ major companies (including Apple, Samsung, Motorola, HTC, LG, plus even AT&T, Sprint and Verizon). It's CFSI who audits the smelters, comes up with the lists of who to use or not, etc... and they do so for the benefit of all their members.

Thus Samsung and Apple and others are all using the same minerals auditing agency and give similar reports, but Apple has for years carefully written their press releases to make the naive reader assume that Apple did all their own checking and voluntarily to boot.

As for underage workers, Samsung provides its third party suppliers with facial recognition gear in order to help them keep out teens who are constantly trying to use someone else's ID. It's a problem that all companies in that part of the world face, since the teens often see it as an opportunity to get work experience that will raise their employment chances later on.

Apple is very good at carefully crafting there public relations strategy and putting out convincing press releases. Thank you for clarifying this.
[doublepost=1459498490][/doublepost]

Why such low standards? USA factory workers are among the lowest paid in the OECD and have more laws restricting their collective bargaining, union activities etc than almost anywhere else in the 'West'. Don't you think the pay and conditions of those California workers should be brought up to Australian standards!

Yes, good point. Exactly. Standards should be set at the best practice, not a race to the bottom. Yes, bring standards up to Australian levels or even those in France, Germany, Netherlands or other places that value human beings as people.
[doublepost=1459498541][/doublepost]

Ok, instead of sugar coating it, here's the position you're trying to argue against.

Organizations outlive individuals. If I have an Apple or an Exxon, that company can live on indefinitely generating revenue I can feed on if I'm an investor or government, while a continual stream of workers come and go from it. That's why it makes the most sense to support to companies and institutions, and regard individuals as little more than a liability. For now, until we can completely replace them with software and androids, they're a necessary evil. This is why we've flipped the tax liabilities of the IRS as well, giving the institutions as close to a free ride as possible, and subsidize it by taxing the individual on their labor, threatening them with incarceration and forfeiture of their assets if they don't comply with this voluntary taxation. The poorer you treat them, the more desperate they get, and the more you can use them as an expendable, disposable resource. Individuals will always come crawling with their hand out for a job and a pittance. After all, they're not anyones responsibility but themselves. If they didn't want to live in poverty, their parents shouldn't have bred them without a decent inheritance to endow them with. The fact that they did, indicates that their position in poverty is their rightful place in the natural order. We have a perfect system here, so if it leaves millions of people laboring for $3/hr, it's not a problem in the system, it's a problem in those people. No one's forcing them to trade their hours for $3 a piece. The fact that they do, means that we all agree, their lives are only worth that. The free market is incapable of lying.

Good luck arguing that down.

That argument displays a morally bankrupt view of the world. Also, there is no such thing as a free market with unbalanced laws governing trade. If someone is living in poverty, you give them a hand, you don’t entrench them into an exploitative system with incredibly low wages, extensive work hours in poor working conditions such that of Apple’s factories offshore. The natural order which sets humans apart is the ability to intellectualize problems and create an intellectual response that is more beneficial to everyone involved.
[doublepost=1459498591][/doublepost]

This is a delusional socialistic pipe dream.

Truth hurts. Not a delusional socialistic pipe dream, but an open reflection of the situation at hand. Accuracy and honesty is what counts here, not canned statements like that.
[doublepost=1459498664][/doublepost]

Lots of companies use Foxconn:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn#Major_customers

I imagine Foxconn workers assemble all sorts of products during the year as demand fluctuates.

Why should Apple be the baseline for what they earn?

Yes, you have got that right: lots of companies [like Apple] “use” [or abuse] Foxconn.

Apple is in an incredible position of power to pay and give employees great wages and conditions. So it should.

I refuse to believe some Apple Executives are in any way comfortable with the production standards it accepts at Apple offshore factories.

 

[SomeSecurityGuy]

To be clear, rather than reading the SR report and seeing the improvement that Apple has done for the workers of suppliers, seeing how far the company has come, you complain that they aren't doing enough?

 

[s2mikey]

That's just a non sense....
Life's cost in China is different from California and from Europe.
Wages are to be set according to the job you are doing and the place you are living.

BTW Apple isn't paying Foxconn workers. Apple pays Apple's employees, while Foxconn pays Foxconn's employees...

Well, yeah but we know how this works. Grumpy shareholders always want more more more so they basically force Apple to use super cheap, throw away labor to meet those demands. Let's not pretend like Foxconn is the problem here. The real problem stems from insatiable appetites for more and more wealth since apparently a lot isn't enough. Ever.

The REAL right thing to do would be for Apple and others to make everything here in our homeland using OUR labor. And, of course, pay them decent wages and benefits. That's how communities thrive and the system works. This concept of overseas labor is sickening. Sorry but I couldn't care LESS about China. Nor they should they care about me. They got their country and economy and we have ours. Globalization sucks. There, I said it.

The easy fix is to slap a big fat tariff on good made outside the USA. Instantly rectified. Just make the tariff high enough to outweigh the cost of making stuff halfway around the globe. Like the USA couldn't use some solid mfg jobs? Cmon.

 

[smacrumon]

[doublepost=1459497517][/doublepost]

Somehow I don’t think the image is a typical representation of workers in the factory.

“Apple’s way” is still severely lacking. It’s wishful thinking the number represents a “department” number, more likely an employee number, no name, just employee number. The fine stripes and number is reminiscent of a prison uniform, but with an Apple-esque styling that is fit for website propaganda.
[doublepost=1459498153][/doublepost]

Wrong. Apple’s extended offshore factory workers should get equivalent or better working conditions and pay. Let’s put some facts out there instead of hyperbole and inaccuracies from several commenters here.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.

Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.


So a summary:

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are receiving a tiny fraction of the equivalent wage in the USA. (< 8%, $3590 less in wages each month.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are working up to and more than twice the permitted hours than the equivalent in the USA. (150% - 250%, 20 - 60 extra hours worked per week.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers will need to pay at least a quarter more than customers in the USA to buy an iPhone. (127%, $111 USD more.)


There’s no question, that’s corporate exploitation. No one can deny that here. Apple has nothing to be proud of with this current record and shareholders should be worried about future claims for compensation. This doesn’t even factor in other missing working conditions at Apple’s offshore factories.

Apple’s offshore factory workers are working incredibly longer hours, for incredibly less pay. Clearly Apple’s offshore factory workers are being exploited, getting a morally bankrupt raw deal out of life.

Just because Apple’s employees work under a shell company such as “Foxconn” or “Pegatron”, does’t mean they aren’t Apple employees. If your sole job daily is to manufacture parts and products for Apple, guess what, you’re an Apple employee no matter how many shell companies your employment structure is buried under. These people deserve at least the equivalent or better working conditions and wages to those working in the USA.

I’m speaking here for those who can’t speak for themselves and because I’m disgusted with anyone trying to defend Apple’s engagement in poor practice. Apple can do much better.

Sources:
Apple
http://www.apple.com

BBC

China File
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting...hina-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn

China Labor Watch
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107

CNET
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wag...persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ndia-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/

Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

Market Watch
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it...-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10

[doublepost=1459510513][/doublepost]

Well, yeah but we know how this works. Grumpy shareholders always want more more more so they basically force Apple to use super cheap, throw away labor to meet those demands. Let's not pretend like Foxconn is the problem here. The real problem stems from insatiable appetites for more and more wealth since apparently a lot isn't enough. Ever.

The REAL right thing to do would be for Apple and others to make everything here in our homeland using OUR labor. And, of course, pay them decent wages and benefits. That's how communities thrive and the system works. This concept of overseas labor is sickening. Sorry but I couldn't care LESS about China. Nor they should they care about me. They got their country and economy and we have ours. Globalization sucks. There, I said it.

The easy fix is to slap a big fat tariff on good made outside the USA. Instantly rectified. Just make the tariff high enough to outweigh the cost of making stuff halfway around the globe. Like the USA couldn't use some solid mfg jobs? Cmon.

Agree. I do however care about both the USA and China, I just want humane operating practices employed in all zones. It's not too much to ask.

 

[Keane16]

I refuse to believe some Apple Executives are in any way comfortable with the production standards it accepts at Apple offshore factories.

If they were happy they wouldn't need to run the audits? They aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all.

I used to be a fan of Nintendo handhelds - Nintendo used Foxconn for assembly - I never would've even thought about the worker conditions back then. The fact that we're even having these discussions is a positive step. And I would't even be aware of a lot of it if it weren't for Apple.

You're right Apple is currently in a great position. However tech is ruthless and changes fast. You could've said Nokia were in a strong position to make positive changes not long ago. You only have to look over the fence to Android manufacturers who have raced to the bottom and can't even turn a profit without increasing their outgoings by spending on these sorts of things.

We as Apple consumers ultimately pay the cost of these things (which I fully support) with higher prices. Yet every review will mention Apple's higher prices compared to HTC, Samsung, Sony - what are those companies (as an example) doing for wages and conditions?

 

[smacrumon]

If they were happy they wouldn't need to run the audits? They aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all.

I used to be a fan of Nintendo handhelds - Nintendo used Foxconn for assembly - I never would've even thought about the worker conditions back then. The fact that we're even having these discussions is a positive step. And I would't even be aware of a lot of it if it weren't for Apple.

You're right Apple is currently in a great position. However tech is ruthless and changes fast. You could've said Nokia were in a strong position to make positive changes not long ago. You only have to look over the fence to Android manufacturers who have raced to the bottom and can't even turn a profit without increasing their outgoings by spending on these sorts of things.

We as Apple consumers ultimately pay the cost of these things (which I fully support) with higher prices. Yet every review will mention Apple's higher prices compared to HTC, Samsung, Sony - what are those companies (as an example) doing for wages and conditions?

I don't support paying the cost of these things. Apple needs to dip into its extreme profit margins to rectify the production issues at its offshore facilities. They continue with the problem, they need to address it. I mean, putting in beautiful $1 million displays into your stores is nice, but then treat your workforce as they so poorly do, well something is obviously very wrong and seriously amiss. A position of being laissez-faire about this all isn't acceptable. Apple is the company that can make industry change in this space. Apple can do incredibly more, and incredibly faster.

 

[applesith]

[doublepost=1459497517][/doublepost]

Somehow I don’t think the image is a typical representation of workers in the factory.

“Apple’s way” is still severely lacking. It’s wishful thinking the number represents a “department” number, more likely an employee number, no name, just employee number. The fine stripes and number is reminiscent of a prison uniform, but with an Apple-esque styling that is fit for website propaganda.
[doublepost=1459498153][/doublepost]

Wrong. Apple’s extended offshore factory workers should get equivalent or better working conditions and pay. Let’s clear up the hyperbole and some inaccuracies.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.

Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.


So a summary:

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are receiving a tiny fraction of the equivalent wage in the USA. (< 8%, $3590 less in wages each month.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers are working up to and more than twice the permitted hours than the equivalent in the USA. (150% - 250%, 20 - 60 extra hours worked per week.)

- Apple’s offshore factory workers will need to pay at least a quarter more than customers in the USA to buy an iPhone. (127%, $111 USD more.)


There’s no question, that’s corporate exploitation. No one can deny that here. Apple has nothing to be proud of with this current record and shareholders should be worried about future claims for compensation. This doesn’t even factor in other missing working conditions at Apple’s offshore factories.

Apple’s offshore factory workers are working incredibly longer hours, for incredibly less pay. Clearly Apple’s offshore factory workers are being exploited, getting a morally bankrupt raw deal out of life.

Just because Apple’s employees work under a shell company such as “Foxconn” or “Pegatron”, does’t mean they aren’t Apple employees. If your sole job daily is to manufacture parts and products for Apple, guess what, you’re an Apple employee no matter how many shell companies your employment structure is buried under. These people deserve at least the equivalent or better working conditions and wages to those working in the USA.

I’m speaking here for those who can’t speak for themselves and because I’m disgusted with anyone trying to defend Apple’s engagement in poor practice. Apple can do much better.

EDIT: I've received a complaint for not providing sources. Actually, I did mention the agencies for the sources below, but I now provide links:

Apple
http://www.apple.com

BBC

China File
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting...hina-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn

China Labor Watch
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107

CNET
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wag...persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ndia-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/

Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

Market Watch
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it...-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10



























[doublepost=1459498295][/doublepost]


Some time ago, a lot of Apple’s manufacturing occurred in the USA. Take the iMac for instance, it was manufactured in the USA by Apple employees for many years. Today the most standard order iMacs are manufactured in offshore Apple factories. These offshore factory workers are still Apple employees, still manufacturing Apple products, the only difference is that they are paid so very poorly, working many, many more hours of overtime, working in poorer working conditions.

Apple could easily ramp up production inside the USA as they do in China, the only difference is that Apple wants to pay the least amount it can for production and work every inch out of the factory workers located in special economic zones guarded by security. Not open not transparent operations clearly. Factories such as Foxconn are moving to places like India because wages are even cheaper. Apple has been a wholly complicit partner in this and a direct or indirect contributor to driving down wages and conditions through its factory negotiations. It’s a shameful aspect of Apple. It’s a reason I hold on to my devices as long as possible. Apple could be much better. It needs to end this entrenched form of discrimination and this modern pseudo slavery.
[doublepost=1459498382][/doublepost]


There is no privacy issue here, just a straw argument. Thanks for your own experience, but I suspect your client and supplier relationship doesn’t lead to compensation that is less than 10% of the amounts typically expected.
[doublepost=1459498423][/doublepost]
Yes, all lives are valuable. “..always eventually results in more harm than good” is a ridiculous statement. No, paying people correctly is not harmful. What is harmful is paying people < 10% the typical payment and working them more than double the maximum hours.
[doublepost=1459498458][/doublepost]

Apple is very good at carefully crafting there public relations strategy and putting out convincing press releases. Thank you for clarifying this.
[doublepost=1459498490][/doublepost]

Yes, good point. Exactly. Standards should be set at the best practice, not a race to the bottom. Yes, bring standards up to Australian levels or even those in France, Germany, Netherlands or other places that value human beings as people.
[doublepost=1459498541][/doublepost]

That argument displays a morally bankrupt view of the world. Also, there is no such thing as a free market with unbalanced laws governing trade. If someone is living in poverty, you give them a hand, you don’t entrench them into an exploitative system with incredibly low wages, extensive work hours in poor working conditions such that of Apple’s factories offshore. The natural order which sets humans apart is the ability to intellectualize problems and create an intellectual response that is more beneficial to everyone involved.
[doublepost=1459498591][/doublepost]

Truth hurts. Not a delusional socialistic pipe dream, but an open reflection of the situation at hand. Accuracy and honesty is what counts here, not canned statements like that.
[doublepost=1459498664][/doublepost]

Yes, you have got that right: lots of companies [like Apple] “use” [or abuse] Foxconn.

Apple is in an incredible position of power to pay and give employees great wages and conditions. So it should.

I refuse to believe some Apple Executives are in any way comfortable with the production standards it accepts at Apple offshore factories.

Nope.

Foxconn employees are Foxconn employees. Apple cannot just move production here. Tim Cook addressed this in a 60 minutes special or something a while back. There are no production lines or systems setup in the US to handle the demand of output needed. Plus why do we want low skill low pay jobs? So we can have even more jobs that people will want a $15, $20, $30 minimum wage for? No thanks. You should learn some basic economics instead of just making stuff up.

 

[NervousFish2]

No, all lives are invaluable. But prices and wages should always be set by markets. Never by fiat. Setting a wage based on someone "knowing better", always eventually results in more harm than good.

But markets themselves only exist THROUGH intervention. Therefore they are ALWAYS to some extent the product of human intervention. For me, recognizing this intrinsic fact of markets really helps us understand that they are just tools. They are not gods. As tools, they can be changed, modified, etc. And there are economic historians out there, Like Thomas Piketty, who have very large data sets to support the contention that human beings tend to thrive much more when markets are treated as tools.

 

[smacrumon]

Nope.

Foxconn employees are Foxconn employees. Apple cannot just move production here. Tim Cook addressed this in a 60 minutes special or something a while back. There are no production lines or systems setup in the US to handle the demand of output needed. Plus why do we want low skill low pay jobs? So we can have even more jobs that people will want a $15, $20, $30 minimum wage for? No thanks. You should learn some basic economics instead of just making stuff up.

I'm not "making stuff up". Foxconn employees, working solely all day on Apple products, are effectively Apple employees, just that they are working under a complex and unusual employment structure. My comments are well researched and sources cited. The economics are sound. Sorry if it is not palatable. If Tesla can produce giga factories, Apple can build it's own local production lines again. But, the factories can actually be anywhere in the world, but Apple's worker's pay and conditions must be no less than equitable than what occurs in the USA. The question is why not pay people (fellow humans) a proper wage and conditions for a proper days work?

 

[applesith]

I'm not "making stuff up". Foxconn employees, working solely all day on Apple products, are effectively Apple employees, just that they are working under a complex and unusual employment structure. My comments are well researched and sources cited. The economics are sound. Sorry if it is not palatable. If Tesla can produce giga factories, Apple can build it's own local production lines again. But, the factories can actually be anywhere in the world, but Apple's worker's pay and conditions must be no less than equitable than what occurs in the USA. The question is why not pay people (fellow humans) a proper wage and conditions for a proper days work?

I work at a digital agency and typically service one client account at a time. Does that mean I am I am the client's employee? NO. My employment is with the agency I work with. Plus guess what! The people who work for the same agency in other states or countries, get different pay. Because guess what- labor markets and costs of living aren't all the same!

Tesla? LOL. Yeah because the production size, process and price points are an apples to apples comparison for a smart phone.

You still do not understand that you cannot apply one standard of living to another area of the world. Companies actually operate in the weird distorted POV you have. That's not how the world works.

 

[smacrumon]

Nope.

Foxconn employees are Foxconn employees. Apple cannot just move production here. Tim Cook addressed this in a 60 minutes special or something a while back. There are no production lines or systems setup in the US to handle the demand of output needed. Plus why do we want low skill low pay jobs? So we can have even more jobs that people will want a $15, $20, $30 minimum wage for? No thanks. You should learn some basic economics instead of just making stuff up.

I'm not "making stuff up". Foxconn employees, working solely all day on Apple products, are effectively Apple employees, just that they are working under a complex and unusual employment structure. My comments are well researched and sources cited. Sorry if it is not palatable. If Tesla can produce giga factories, Apple can build it's own local production lines again. The factories can be anywhere in the world, but Apple's worker's pay and conditions must be no less than equitable than what occurs in the USA.

But markets themselves only exist THROUGH intervention. Therefore they are ALWAYS to some extent the product of human intervention. For me, recognizing this intrinsic fact of markets really helps us understand that they are just tools. They are not gods. As tools, they can be changed, modified, etc. And there are economic historians out there, Like Thomas Piketty, who have very large data sets to support the contention that human beings tend to thrive much more when markets are treated as tools.

Thanks for that tid bit of history and context! Cheers
[doublepost=1459521138][/doublepost]

I work at a digital agency and typically service one client account at a time. Does that mean I am I am the client's employee? NO. My employment is with the agency I work with. Plus guess what! The people who work for the same agency in other states or countries, get different pay. Because guess what- labor markets and costs of living aren't all the same!

Tesla? LOL. Yeah because the production size, process and price points are an apples to apples comparison for a smart phone.

You still do not understand that you cannot apply one standard of living to another area of the world. Companies actually operate in the weird distorted POV you have. That's not how the world works.

Your agency situation is no way an apples to apples comparison. You are a free agent, you aren't working in a factory assembling your device and your future device.
It's less about how the world is working, but how it should work. There's no distortion. Things change all the time. Get ready for disruption.

 

[applesith]

Your agency situation is no way an apples to apples comparison. You are a free agent, you aren't working in a factory assembling your device and your future device.
It's less about how the world is working, but how it should work. There's no distortion. Things change all the time. Get ready for disruption.

No, same principle applies. You are claiming Apple should have to provide the same wages to workers for another company in another country. That doesn't even happen within companies that operate across state and country boarders. No one is putting a gun to the heads of those people and forcing them to work for Foxconn.

If the Foxconn workers are going to be paid the same as US Apple workers, then they should have to pay the same for food, clothing and housing as Apple US workers.

 

[smacrumon]

No, same principle applies. You are claiming Apple should have to provide the same wages to workers for another company in another country. That doesn't even happen within companies that operate across state and country boarders. No one is putting a gun to the heads of those people and forcing them to work for Foxconn.

What disruption? People getting paid $15 to flip burgers at McDonalds- that's already happening in CA and we will watch that fall apart.

Wait a minute. While as you put it "no one is putting a gun to the heads of those people", the Apple offshore employees are so incredibly poor they are likely to take any job. Apple is exploiting this specific situation to only the advantage of Apple shareholders. It's a completely imbalanced situation and needs a disruptive change of direction.
Please provide a moral justification for the below situation. No one can. There is no justification, it's totally immoral.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)
Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.
Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.

 

[applesith]

Wait a minute. While as you put it "no one is putting a gun to the heads of those people", the Apple offshore employees are so incredibly poor they are likely to take any job. Apple is exploiting this specific situation to only the advantage of Apple shareholders. It's a completely imbalanced situation and needs a disruptive change of direction.
Please provide a moral justification for the below situation. No one can. There is no justification, it's totally immoral.

That's not Apple's problem. Go complain to the awful leaders of the country. Foxconn at least offers a job over complete rural poverty. I love how you put all this on Apple and US law instead of holding the governments of Asian countries responsible.

If they get paid Apple US wages, then they should have to pay US prices for all their clothes, food and housing.

 

[smacrumon]

That's not Apple's problem. Go complain to the awful leaders of the country. Foxconn at least offers a job over complete rural poverty. I love how you put all this on Apple and US law instead of holding the governments of Asian countries responsible.

If they get paid Apple US wages, then they should have to pay US prices for all their clothes, food and housing.

Well, the Apple offshore factory workers are certainly paying US prices (and then some more, $510 USD (3288 Chinese Yuan) in China and $399 USD in the USA) when it comes to buying the iPhone. Foxconn only provides jobs because Apple partners with them. Apple has all the power to choose who it partners with and the precise ways it wants production to occur. They have the key to solving this problem.

 

[applesith]

Well, the Apple offshore factory workers are certainly paying US prices (and then some more, $510 USD (3288 Chinese Yuan) in China and $399 USD in the USA) when it comes to buying the iPhone. Foxconn only provides jobs because Apple partners with them. Apple has all the power to choose who it partners with. They have the key to solving this problem.

Cherry pick much? Wages aren't based on the price of apple stuff in that region. The workers should be paying US prices for basics like food, clothing and housing if they are getting US wages. You chose to ignore that point as well as ignoring the fact the government of these countries are first to blame.

As you pointed out, if it wasn't for Apple, these workers would be stuck with rural poverty and no jobs.

 

[smacrumon]

Cherry pick much? Wages aren't based on the price of apple stuff in that region. The workers should be paying US prices for basics like food, clothing and housing if they are getting US wages. You chose to ignore that point as well as ignoring the fact the government of these countries are first to blame.

As you pointed out, if it wasn't for Apple, these workers would be stuck with rural poverty and no jobs.

No, you misread what I typed. I didn't say that at all. Wages should be equivalent. These Apple offshore employees are still effectively in poverty whether they are working 60+ hours, because the pay is so terribly low. Apple has all the power to choose who it partners with and the precise ways it wants production to occur. They have the key to solving this problem.

 

[applesith]

No, you misread what I typed. I didn't say that at all. Wages should be equivalent. These Apple offshore employees are still effectively in poverty whether they are working 60+ hours, because the pay is so terribly low. Apple has all the power to choose who it partners with and the precise ways it wants production to occur. They have the key to solving this problem.

I did not misread what you typed. You're selective with responding to my points.

They are not Apple's employees- they are Foxconn employees. Foxconn sets wages based on laws in the country. The government of the country is responsible for those laws- not Foxconn and not Apple.

There is no reason to pay US wages in China wear the cost of living in China is so much lower and different than in the US. You continue to skate around my points about US wages = US prices for goods and the Chinese government being responsible.

 

[smacrumon]

I did not misread what you typed. You're selective with responding to my points.

They are not Apple's employees- they are Foxconn employees. Foxconn sets wages based on laws in the country. The government of the country is responsible for those laws- not Foxconn and not Apple.

There is no reason to pay US wages in China wear the cost of living in China is so much lower and different than in the US. You continue to skate around my points about US wages = US prices for goods and the Chinese government being responsible.

Can you please point me to a source for "Foxconn sets wages based on laws in the country." I believe that to be false.

 

[applesith]

Can you please point me to a source for "Foxconn sets wages based on laws in the country." I believe that to be false.

Like states do in the US, different areas of China have their own minimum wages. Are you saying Foxconn does not follow the laws of China in terms of wages?

(Still ignoring my other points)

 

[smacrumon]

Like states do in the US, different areas of China have their own minimum wages. Are you saying Foxconn does not follow the laws of China in terms of wages?

(Still ignoring my other points)

Sorry, but your argument is not credible.

Reminder:
- Apple’s offshore factory workers are receiving a tiny fraction of the equivalent wage in the USA. (< 8%, $3590 less in wages each month.)
- Apple’s offshore factory workers are working up to and more than twice the permitted hours than the equivalent in the USA. (150% - 250%, 20 - 60 extra hours worked per week.)
- Apple’s offshore factory workers will need to pay at least a quarter more than customers in the USA to buy an iPhone. (127%, $111 USD more.)
- The cost of living in China is not "so much lower":
http://en.people.cn/90780/7605927.html
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States

Summary: Apple’s offshore factory workers wages and conditions are completely way off the mark of human decency when all things are considered. Apple needs to change.

 

[applesith]

Sorry, but your argument is not credible.

Reminder:
- Apple’s offshore factory workers are receiving a tiny fraction of the equivalent wage in the USA. (< 8%, $3590 less in wages each month.)
- Apple’s offshore factory workers are working up to and more than twice the permitted hours than the equivalent in the USA. (150% - 250%, 20 - 60 extra hours worked per week.)
- Apple’s offshore factory workers will need to pay at least a quarter more than customers in the USA to buy an iPhone. (127%, $111 USD more.)
- The cost of living in China is not "so much lower":
http://en.people.cn/90780/7605927.html
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ult.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States

Summary: Apple’s offshore factory workers wages and conditions are completely way off the mark of human decency when all things are considered. Apple needs to change.

My argument is not credible? You're the one who argues entirely off of feelings instead of facts of how Apple and Foxconn are different companies, want to apply the same standard of living in the US to rural China, and doesn't understand economics. Areas of China greatly vary from one another. You can't apply a broad "all of China" to the US. You have to look at the areas where the Foxconn factories are.

You've continuously ignored my points because you can't counter them with anything that makes sense or is grounded by reality. Your recent post is the best example. You essentially for proof Foxconn does not obey minimum wage in China. I asked you to clarify if that is indeed what you meant- because that would be a different argument of China going after Foxconn for breaking the law. And you ignored my point there too.

You live in la-la-land where everything needs to be "fair" and discussing this with you is like talking to a wall.

 

[steve333]

Contrary to popular opinion, Apple cannot force companies, in other countries, to have a 40 hour work week. It is a constant improvement process. My guess is that Apple is not happy with the 60 hours and is trying to improve it further. But unless you have some magic wand that you aren't telling people about, it's politics, and that takes time.

They can move production to non Communist slave driving countries, like the U.S. for instance.
Silly me for thinking this way