Apple Outlines Milestone on Eliminating Conflict Minerals in 2016 Supplier Responsibility Report

[Keane16]

I don't support paying the cost of these things. Apple needs to dip into its extreme profit margins to rectify the production issues at its offshore facilities. They continue with the problem, they need to address it. I mean, putting in beautiful $1 million displays into your stores is nice, but then treat your workforce as they so poorly do, well something is obviously very wrong and seriously amiss. A position of being laissez-faire about this all isn't acceptable. Apple is the company that can make industry change in this space. Apple can do incredibly more, and incredibly faster.

Without knowing what their plans are for their cash I personally wouldn't want to even start saying what they should and shouldn't do. How much can they throw money at Foxconn, what will that do to their margins, what will that do their competitors etc. You'd have to be at the board level to know what Apple has planned short, medium and long term. Throwing money at Foxconn workers may be nice, but can they put the money to better use?

One thing that caught my eye at the Tesla Model 3 unveil was how expensive and hard it is to build electric cars at scale and price them for the wider market. Elon Musk went through how the early, expensive models (Roadster, S and X) funded the high volume more reasonably priced Model 3. While watching that I thought "maybe the Apple Car rumours aren't so crazy" - Apple has the cash to make it happen.

Now you may say why build cars - pay the workers more. Well on one hand they could use their fortune to force Foxconn to pay their workers more (I still don't know how you enforce this when Foxconn employees assemble a number of companies products). Or make an electric car, and accelerate the uptake of electric vehicles. If their car helps shift customers from internal combustion to electric at anywhere near the rate they managed to get people onto digital music with the iPod or from feature phones to smartphones with the iPhone then would that be a better use of their cash? I wouldn't like to answer the question - but it's food for thought.

Short term pay workers more if Apple disappears things go back to the way they were. Long term produce an electric vehicle, help the world move to sustainable transport, even if Apple disappears they helped achieve something that will be felt positively by future generations.

And to play devil's advocate - one might ask can they do both? Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Without having a deep insight into their plans, as I say board level, you can't really answer that. Without that access you can but assume, as I have here. The world has many problems - you can't expect Apple (or any company) to tackle every single one.

 

[smacrumon]

Without knowing what their plans are for their cash I personally wouldn't want to even start saying what they should and shouldn't do. How much can they throw money at Foxconn, what will that do to their margins, what will that do their competitors etc. You'd have to be at the board level to know what Apple has planned short, medium and long term. Throwing money at Foxconn workers may be nice, but can they put the money to better use?

One thing that caught my eye at the Tesla Model 3 unveil was how expensive and hard it is to build electric cars at scale and price them for the wider market. Elon Musk went through how the early, expensive models (Roadster, S and X) funded the high volume more reasonably priced Model 3. While watching that I thought "maybe the Apple Car rumours aren't so crazy" - Apple has the cash to make it happen.

Now you may say why build cars - pay the workers more. Well on one hand they could use their fortune to force Foxconn to pay their workers more (I still don't know how you enforce this when Foxconn employees assemble a number of companies products). Or make an electric car, and accelerate the uptake of electric vehicles. If their car helps shift customers from internal combustion to electric at anywhere near the rate they managed to get people onto digital music with the iPod or from feature phones to smartphones with the iPhone then would that be a better use of their cash? I wouldn't like to answer the question - but it's food for thought.

Short term pay workers more if Apple disappears things go back to the way they were. Long term produce an electric vehicle, help the world move to sustainable transport, even if Apple disappears they helped achieve something that will be felt positively by future generations.

And to play devil's advocate - one might ask can they do both? Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Without having a deep insight into their plans, as I say board level, you can't really answer that. Without that access you can but assume, as I have here. The world has many problems - you can't expect Apple (or any company) to tackle every single one.

Apple operates in the public realm, so anyone with an opinion should be commenting on what they should be/shouldn't be doing. When Apple is happy to spend $1 million per store on new displays, but can't pay workers properly, then we have a very big problem in what Apple actually values. Great design includes factoring in how the product is manufactured. There is no excuse for paying so little to workers in Apple's offshore factories to manufacture its products, it's simply unjustified.

 

[Keane16]

Apple operates in the public realm, so anyone with an opinion should be commenting on what they should be/shouldn't be doing.

I said I wouldn't, not shouldn't.

When Apple is happy to spend $1 million per store on new displays, but can't pay workers properly, then we have a very big problem in what Apple actually values. Great design includes factoring in how the product is manufactured. There is no excuse for paying so little to workers in Apple's offshore factories to manufacture its products, it's simply unjustified.

You can cheer lead for better pay all you want. Yet you haven't explained how that would work.

And like I mentioned in my last post - without knowing their long term plans how do you know there isn't a better use for their money? (Spoiler: you don't I'm afraid).

You seem pretty stuck on one facet of Apple's operations. What do you make of ResearchKit? Or what about pushing renewable energy? How about the fact they've pushed Accessibility features in their devices? Customer privacy? Are they things that Apple values?

As they say you can't please all of the people all of the time. The saddest part of your posts is that it's on the comments section of an article which show they are improving. I can only imagine how up in arms you would've have been if this had been a negative article.

 

[smacrumon]

I said I wouldn't, not shouldn't.



You can cheer lead for better pay all you want. Yet you haven't explained how that would work.

And like I mentioned in my last post - without knowing their long term plans how do you know there isn't a better use for their money? (Spoiler: you don't I'm afraid).

You seem pretty stuck on one facet of Apple's operations. What do you make of ResearchKit? Or what about pushing renewable energy? How about the fact they've pushed Accessibility features in their devices? Customer privacy? Are they things that Apple values?

As they say you can't please all of the people all of the time. The saddest part of your posts is that it's on the comments section of an article which show they are improving. I can only imagine how up in arms you would've have been if this had been a negative article.

Wouldn't, couldn't, shouldn't. Sorry I misread it.

ResearchKit, renewable energy, accessibility, privacy features, I love those developments. They are great, tremendous values. Proud as a developer I can build apps that work towards the common good on Apple's platform. But... Treating workers so poorly is a disgrace. Apple aims so high in some areas, and in others scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

I don't really care about long term plans Apple has with its money. This issue has been in play for way too long. It works immediately by reducing their insane margins and really improving worker conditions today not tomorrow.

The record below is a disgrace for a company like Apple that promotes it self as doing well, but it in effect is tremendously way off the mark of doing well.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.

Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.

 

[Keane16]

and in others scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

Your're kind of stretching now. If this is scraping the barrell:

http://www.apple.com/uk/supplier-responsibility/

I wonder what label you put on other tech giants making billions who have nothing close to this.

I don't really care about long term plans Apple has with its money. This issue has been in play for way too long. It works immediately by reducing their insane margins and really improving worker conditions today not tomorrow.

And that's why your posts on the subject have been shot down by most of the commenters in this thread. If you're blind to the wider options you're naive.

There are many, many things Apple can do with their cash to improve the world. I gave one example of helping push electronic vehicles into the mainstream. But there are so many others.

The record below is a disgrace for a company like Apple that promotes it self as doing well, but it in effect is tremendously way off the mark of doing well.

Why is it a disgrace? What is the benchmark? Who is doing well? You're just throwing facts at the wall with zero context.

Also from their Supplier Responsibility page:

"It’s a massive challenge — one where our work is never done. But each year we implement meaningful, lasting changes across our supply chain."

They don't say they're doing well - just that they're doing something and hope to continue that into the future.

It amazes me you think that they can just throw money at Foxconn and that would be it.

Wages
- The wage of an Apple factory worker in China is about $310 USD per month. (2000 Chinese Yuan per month, but somewhere between 850 Chinese Yuan per month to 2030 Chinese Yuan.)
- The wage of a factory worker in the USA is about $3900 USD. (Notice the extra zero?)

The Chinese figure is dated, from late last year:

"According China Labor Watch, hardly a friend of Apple, the base monthly pay at Foxconn before overtime is now $370, well over China’s minimum wage of $270".

The government of China has set a minimum wage of $270 a month. Apple's supplier Foxconn surpasses that, on average, by 37%. The fact that Foxconn jobs pays 37% above minimum wage probably explains why there are huge queues when they hire. People actually want to work there instead of the other options available to them locally.

The fact you're trying to be a nice guy sticking up for Chinese assembly workers is cute. But there are problems below that that need fixing before you worry about jobs that people actually want. How bad are the conditions at non-Foxconn jobs for people to want their jobs so badly?

Hours of work
- The hours of work in Apple’s offshore factories are at least 60 hours with records showing Apple’s offshore factory workers can frequently work up to more than 100 hours in a week.
- The hours of work in the USA is around 40 hours.

Where do you get frequently over 100 hours? I think you should write to Apple and tell them they are lying as on their site they say 92% of their suppliers hit a 60 hour maximum.

Buying an iPhone
- iPhone SE 16GB price in China is $510 USD. (3288 Chinese Yuan.)
- iPhone SE 16GB price in the USA is $399 USD.

What point are you trying to make? Also $399 + tax in most States.

 

[smacrumon]

Your're kind of stretching now. If this is scraping the barrell:

http://www.apple.com/uk/supplier-responsibility/
I wonder what label you put on other tech giants making billions who have nothing close to this.
And that's why your posts on the subject have been shot down by most of the commenters in this thread. If you're blind to the wider options you're naive.
There are many, many things Apple can do with their cash to improve the world. I gave one example of helping push electronic vehicles into the mainstream. But there are so many others.
Why is it a disgrace? What is the benchmark? Who is doing well? You're just throwing facts at the wall with zero context.
Also from their Supplier Responsibility page:
"It’s a massive challenge — one where our work is never done. But each year we implement meaningful, lasting changes across our supply chain."
They don't say they're doing well - just that they're doing something and hope to continue that into the future.
It amazes me you think that they can just throw money at Foxconn and that would be it.
The Chinese figure is dated, from late last year:
"According China Labor Watch, hardly a friend of Apple, the base monthly pay at Foxconn before overtime is now $370, well over China’s minimum wage of $270".
The government of China has set a minimum wage of $270 a month. Apple's supplier Foxconn surpasses that, on average, by 37%. The fact that Foxconn jobs pays 37% above minimum wage probably explains why there are huge queues when they hire. People actually want to work there instead of the other options available to them locally.
The fact you're trying to be a nice guy sticking up for Chinese assembly workers is cute. But there are problems below that that need fixing before you worry about jobs that people actually want. How bad are the conditions at non-Foxconn jobs for people to want their jobs so badly?
Where do you get frequently over 100 hours? I think you should write to Apple and tell them they are lying as on their site they say 92% of their suppliers hit a 60 hour maximum.
What point are you trying to make? Also $399 + tax in most States.

Apple should be compared to best practice, not what other companies are doing. What other companies are doing is totally irrelevant and a joke of an argument you've put forward.
Actually, my posts haven't been shot down and have received agreement and likes.
Whether it's $370 or $270, it's woefully low, but your forgetting there a still cases where Apple offshore factory workers aren't being paid properly.
I think if you're happy to defend the situation, then you would also be happy to get a 6 month job in an Apple offshore factory as a worker and experience the situation first hand. Now is a great time in the lead up to the next iPhone. Then try giving an objective assessment.
Cases are document where workers are working much more than 60 hours, up to more than 100 hours in a week.

Apple
http://www.apple.com

BBC

China File
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/major-china-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn

China Labor Watch
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107

CNET
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wages-and-long-hours-still-persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/12/if-apples-foxconn-will-move-to-india-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/

Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

Market Watch
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it-would-take-25-years-of-foxconn-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10

 

[Keane16]

Apple should be compared to best practice, not what other companies are doing. What other companies are doing is totally irrelevant and a joke of an argument you've put forward.

And what is best practice? Who decides it?

The joke for me in this thread was the following, which I assume you think is best practice:

"Everyone that touches an Apple product in its production at an offshore supplier should receive no less than the wage payments and working conditions as someone in California, USA, manufacturing a product there. Foxcomm et al employees are Apple employees."

1. You genuinely think regardless of all the factors involved (e.g. cost of living) people living in different parts of the world should be paid the same. That is absolute madness - the entire global economy would need re-working for that pipe dream of yours to work.

2. "Foxconn employess are Apple employees". Buddy take a break and think about that for a second. In the real world companies contract other companies all the time. For example when the company I work for contracts in staff from KPMG to assess a contract, those KPMG employees don't suddenly become my companies employees - we have no say on their pay or benefits.

Actually, my posts haven't been shot down and have received agreement and likes.

Pretty much all the top posts are by people that appear to grasp economics and oppose your views:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ier-responsibility-report.1964696/liked-posts

Whether it's $370 or $270, it's woefully low, but your forgetting there a still cases where Apple offshore factory workers aren't being paid properly.

If you think $270 is too low for China speak to their government. Apple paying Foxconn more isn't magically going to improve all workers rights. If you are so passionate about this then make a case and get in touch with the lawmakers.

Apple already have initiatives in place for their suppliers. Nobody (with a brain) has said Apple are perfect. Apple themselves have said their work will continue - that they are not finished.

I have not forgotten anything. I mentioned a percentage in my last post for compliance with a 60-hour maximum working week. It was 97%. That means 3% are still working more. I don't know if that will ever be 100%. I think if my UK office was audited against 60 hour weeks we would be lower than 97%.

I think if you're happy to defend the situation, then you would also be happy to get a 6 month job in an Apple offshore factory as a worker and experience the situation first hand. Now is a great time in the lead up to the next iPhone. Then try giving an objective assessment.

I've not defended anything. I've not said Apple are perfect or have hit their goal. Re-read what I wrote. This from an earlier post pretty much sums up what I think:

"They [Apple] aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all."

Cases are document where workers are working much more than 60 hours, up to more than 100 hours in a week.

Apple
http://www.apple.com

BBC

China File
https://www.chinafile.com/reporting...hina-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn

China Labor Watch
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107

CNET
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wag...persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...ndia-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/

Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html

Market Watch
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it...-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10

Not sure why you keep copying an pasting this?

1. Over half of the links are dead.
2. The working ones are over a year old. So they're pointless and out-of date. Apple updates its supplier responsibility page at least annually. The latest update can be found here:

http://www.apple.com/uk/supplier-responsibility/progress-report/

If you read that you should understand that Apple want to continue working to improve. It's not an overnight thing.

 

[smacrumon]

And what is best practice? Who decides it?

The joke for me in this thread was the following, which I assume you think is best practice:

"Everyone that touches an Apple product in its production at an offshore supplier should receive no less than the wage payments and working conditions as someone in California, USA, manufacturing a product there. Foxcomm et al employees are Apple employees."

1. You genuinely think regardless of all the factors involved (e.g. cost of living) people living in different parts of the world should be paid the same. That is absolute madness - the entire global economy would need re-working for that pipe dream of yours to work.

2. "Foxconn employess are Apple employees". Buddy take a break and think about that for a second. In the real world companies contract other companies all the time. For example when the company I work for contracts in staff from KPMG to assess a contract, those KPMG employees don't suddenly become my companies employees - we have no say on their pay or benefits.



Pretty much all the top posts are by people that appear to grasp economics and oppose your views:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ier-responsibility-report.1964696/liked-posts



If you think $270 is too low for China speak to their government. Apple paying Foxconn more isn't magically going to improve all workers rights. If you are so passionate about this then make a case and get in touch with the lawmakers.

Apple already have initiatives in place for their suppliers. Nobody (with a brain) has said Apple are perfect. Apple themselves have said their work will continue - that they are not finished.

I have not forgotten anything. I mentioned a percentage in my last post for compliance with a 60-hour maximum working week. It was 97%. That means 3% are still working more. I don't know if that will ever be 100%. I think if my UK office was audited against 60 hour weeks we would be lower than 97%.



I've not defended anything. I've not said Apple are perfect or have hit their goal. Re-read what I wrote. This from an earlier post pretty much sums up what I think:

"They [Apple] aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all."



Not sure why you keep copying an pasting this?

1. Over half of the links are dead.
2. The working ones are over a year old. So they're pointless and out-of date. Apple updates its supplier responsibility page at least annually. The latest update can be found here:

http://www.apple.com/uk/supplier-responsibility/progress-report/

If you read that you should understand that Apple want to continue working to improve. It's not an overnight thing.

Best practice is obvious here, if you can’t see it, you probably have your eyes closed and ears shut on the issue. It’s time to rework the economy and stop exploiting people in Apple’s offshore factories. I’m not happy at all with the situation as a customer and developer, so I’m speaking up. You appear to be comfortable with the situation and instead attempt to degrade my posts. That's fine. Do what you like to perpetuate the situation or maybe just instead try and work to fix it faster? Maybe a declaration of interests in Apple and the tech industry should be a requirement on MacRumors so we all can understand clearly the motivations behind the positions we take.

Just think about it “buddy”, you can pretend contracting is legitimate, but Apple’s offshore workers work solely on parts and assembly for Apple products. It makes them Apple workers. Want to pretend they are contracting? Fine, but legal tests will address that notion in due time.

Apple is taking baby steps -- baby steps. They aren’t doing much about this issue. Don’t pretend to deny it. They could do MUCH more.

Sorry, the links appear to have been truncated. The sources below. They aren’t out of date. 2000 is out of date. 2014, 2015, 2016 is current. Apple hasn't made any miraculous turn arounds, it's made little change.

Apple - http://www.apple.com
BBC -

China File - https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/major-china-apple-supplier-pays-workers-less-foxconn
China Labor Watch - http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/report/107
CNET - http://www.cnet.com/au/news/low-wages-and-long-hours-still-persist-at-iphone-factory-claims-labor-group/
Forbes - http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/12/if-apples-foxconn-will-move-to-india-then-las-15-minimum-wage-will-cost-jobs/
Huffington Post - http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/average-cost-factory-worker_n_1327413.html
Market Watch - http://www.marketwatch.com/story/it-would-take-25-years-of-foxconn-wages-to-afford-10000-apple-watch-2015-03-10

 

[Keane16]

Best practice is obvious here, if you can’t see it, you probably have your eyes closed and ears shut on the issue.

No really it is not obvious.

It would bankrupt Apple to pay all of Foxconn's workers the same rate that Californian ones earn.

The average cost of living in Shenzhen is a fraction of California.

What you propose doesn't make sense in the current world.

You appear to be comfortable with the situation and instead attempt to degrade my posts. That's fine. Do what you like to perpetuate the situation or maybe just instead try and work to fix it faster? Maybe a declaration of interests in Apple and the tech industry should be a requirement on MacRumors so we all can understand clearly the motivations behind the positions we take.

Again more words in my mouth. Where did I say I was comfortable with the situation? Once more, as they say third time's a charm, my thoughts on the matter in a nutshell:

"They [Apple] aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all."

I think Apple's slow and steady strategy is the right one - I don't think they should be throwing large amounts of money casually at the matter for a quick fix - but I'm no expert. There is no tried and tested playbook for what they are doing.

===============================

As I said I hope Apple, and others in the future, continue to improve. But there is no quick fix.

You're just scratching a tiny corner of a problem. You are mixing a number of issues: Apple's profits, Chinese working conditions, Chinese pay, global economics etc. Your argument is a mess. Your data/proof is outdated. Your solution has no details, "pay them more" doesn't cut it.

The fact you care is nice. The fact "you don't care about Apple's long term plans" show you're naive to reality. That's an arrogant way to look at the world, a world with many problems but you think the one you are focussing on is most important. You think you know how a multi-billion dollar company should spend its cash. We don't have a clue what Apple has planned at Board level, as I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation.

 

[smacrumon]

No really it is not obvious.

It would bankrupt Apple to pay all of Foxconn's workers the same rate that Californian ones earn.

The average cost of living in Shenzhen is a fraction of California.

What you propose doesn't make sense in the current world.



Again more words in my mouth. Where did I say I was comfortable with the situation? Once more, as they say third time's a charm, my thoughts on the matter in a nutshell:

"They [Apple] aren't happy and that's why they're spending money to change it. I hope we see efforts continue, and I hope others in all sectors (not just tech) follow. Way worse would be failing to mention it at all."

I think Apple's slow and steady strategy is the right one - I don't think they should be throwing large amounts of money casually at the matter for a quick fix - but I'm no expert. There is no tried and tested playbook for what they are doing.

===============================

As I said I hope Apple, and others in the future, continue to improve. But there is no quick fix.

You're just scratching a tiny corner of a problem. You are mixing a number of issues: Apple's profits, Chinese working conditions, Chinese pay, global economics etc. Your argument is a mess. Your data/proof is outdated. Your solution has no details, "pay them more" doesn't cut it.

The fact you care is nice. The fact "you don't care about Apple's long term plans" show you're naive to reality. That's an arrogant way to look at the world, a world with many problems but you think the one you are focussing on is most important. You think you know how a multi-billion dollar company should spend its cash. We don't have a clue what Apple has planned at Board level, as I mentioned at the beginning of the conversation.

Paying Apple's offshore factory workers would not bankrupt the company, that's hyperbole.
You're either working toward change, or you're complicit. Work out which camp you sit in. End convoluting the issues. Please.