Apple Patent Application for Combination Fingerprint Scanner and NFC Circuitry Surfaces

[Oohara]

im talking about the ring around the home button.

Right, and you said:

metal is needed for a capacitive surface so it knows when you hold your finger on it.

I then used the iPhone screen as an example to show that a capacitive surface can just as well be made of glass.

 

[i5pro]

With the confirmation this week that the NSA work with major hardware manufacturers to purposefully put backdoors, flaws, vulnerabilities etc in anything they can to exploit, just in case they ever feel they need to, I think Apple, like all other major tech companies based in the US and its allied countries (and I would bet most countries try similar things with companies based within their borders too) are going to have an have an increasingly problematic time selling this kind of stuff as being truly secure. Because we all know that if they've hobbled it, they are 'legally' gagged from saying so too.

I've not been a fan of the idea of tying biometrics to Apple products anyway, but whatever your view it's a sad fact that whatever assurances are given over the security of such products don't really mean very much anymore, and this could have a horribly undesirable chilling effect upon innovation and progress.

On a positive note, it could increase the use of truly open source projects, as the only real way to inspire confidence in consumers in the future.

Just imagine, that everytime you swipe your print gets read by the NSA who may send it to the FBI. Every print in the world is in "the system" Just add a DNA sample and ...no more crimes. We know who did it and where you are

 

[borgqueenx]

Right, and you said:



I then used the iPhone screen as an example to show that a capacitive surface can just as well be made of glass.

ah ok, thanks thats good info to know. still those box shots would suggest its going to be a metal ring^^

 

[chrmjenkins]

Yep, which is why NFC doesn't use antennas for RF. It uses them as inductor coils.

You can play with the antenna size using this calculator to see what can be done.

.

Yes, my terminology isn't technically accurate but people seem to more immediately understand antenna after years of having them stick out of their phones and cars Although with NFC and wireless charging coming about, hopefully inductor and/or coil come into more prominent use.

Nice calculator!

Since plenty of people own more than one iOS or Apple device, I think it's time for an official and safe "charging station": Charger with plugs for several devices with USB chargers, possibly plus MacBook charger, so you can charge say at least a MacBook and three iOS devices simultaneously using up only one wall plug.

I think that would do well. Maybe in the next couple of years.

 

[GRuizMD]

Just love how people are concerned about their privacy on the stuff that they carry on the cellphones (I bet you just a tiny fraction of users have sensitive information on their phones), Yet they are subscribed to facebook, tweet etc.

I work with sensitive information as part of my work. I use the common precautions to keep the info secure. Nothing fancy.

In reality the airport pat down is way more invasive on your privacy than the NSA tapping phone records.

If you are really worried, get off this forum, cancel your account on FB. cut your internet, and the electricity bill, leave your house and go live in the forest... oh there are drones that might be interested in you.

 

[thasan]

... Why? NFC gives the iPhone all sorts of new possibilities, namely replacing your entire wallet. With a fingerprint scanner for authorization, it would be far more secure than your current credit card which needs just your signature (which is total BS - nobody checks it. Trust me, I worked as a cashier, and the exact words I was told was "Always approve credit cards. If it's stolen, it's the owner's problem and the bank's problem, not ours.")

Wireless charging gains you nothing except a lame magic trick. "look, instead of plugging it in, I have to put it on a special pad to charge it!"

'personally' i prefer wireless charging cause i could free up one usb in my mbp.
i am not into NFC because IMO it will at least it will take 2-3 years more to be acceptable everywhere. its a nice concept (convenient for cashiers and customers etc) but I'm not sure how acceptable it will be in real world and how fast it will penetrate the market. look how even simple chip and pins are!

but wireless charging...i can get it and use it now! i would even think of buying a new MBP if it has a builtin wireless charger for iphones.

 

[kdarling]

..and metal is needed for a capacitive surface so it knows when you hold your finger on it.

Not quite. An iPhone screen doesn't have a metal surface, does it?

It does in a way, because it's got "wires".

The capacitive touchscreen has a transparent grid of two layers (rows on one, columns on the other) of conducting material, which is used to determine where you touched the screen. A voltage is sequentially applied to each row in one layer, and then the capacitive charge at each column intersection in the other layer is measured. (The capacitance is changed by the proximity of your finger.)

The grid squares are relatively large, so extrapolation is used to determine the actual touch point.

(In the latest in-screen method that Apple uses, one plane of the grid is actually inside the display. This saves one layer of conducting material/glass.)

--

A capacitive fingerprint sensor is similar, but has a far more dense grid, and is sensitive enough to read the tiny depths of fingerprint ridges (~.020 mm).

--

An RF fingerprint sensor transmits a low frequency radio signal from a surrounding ring/square through your finger to a very high DPI antenna "pixel" array, where the signal intensity is measured at each column.

(The antenna array can be an area grid sensor as big as a finger, or it can be just a few rows that you swipe past. More than one row is needed to be able to recognize the swiping motion/speed, or you can just have a few offset pixels for that.)

It could also be put under the glass surface, right?

In theory your finger doesn't actually have to touch the RF transmitter ring, but I think in practice it's always been done that way.

Yes, my terminology isn't technically accurate but people seem to more immediately understand antenna after years of having them stick out of their phones and cars Although with NFC and wireless charging coming about, hopefully inductor and/or coil come into more prominent use.

I understand and concur. There's a fine line between writing so most laymen can understand it, and being accurate enough that other engineers don't freak out. lol

 

[thermodynamic]

With the confirmation this week that the NSA work with major hardware manufacturers to purposefully put backdoors, flaws, vulnerabilities etc in anything they can to exploit, just in case they ever feel they need to, I think Apple, like all other major tech companies based in the US and its allied countries (and I would bet most countries try similar things with companies based within their borders too) are going to have an have an increasingly problematic time selling this kind of stuff as being truly secure. Because we all know that if they've hobbled it, they are 'legally' gagged from saying so too.

Or any company; Dell has embedded fingerprint readers in their laptops for a long time now.

I've not been a fan of the idea of tying biometrics to Apple products anyway, but whatever your view it's a sad fact that whatever assurances are given over the security of such products don't really mean very much anymore, and this could have a horribly undesirable chilling effect upon innovation and progress.

Who said competition is a good thing? The companies whose actions clearly show they hate competition? (doesn't matter how or when they got big, the fact they hate competition and then use every means to destroy it is the sole issue here.)

On a positive note, it could increase the use of truly open source projects, as the only real way to inspire confidence in consumers in the future.

Customers have enough time finding the start button and escape key. Never mind open source is in OS X, Linux, and other products. People want it easy. And it's not 1983 or 1991 anymore.

 

[waldobushman]

"Your", not "You're".

Also, the time difference between your finger being close (perhaps 1 cm) and actually touching the button would be extremely small. It wouldn't make a difference, and it would be completely unnecessary.

The patent indicated the circuits could be used for two processes, but didn't indicate that they could be used in parallel. In any case, assuming parallel usage, one could image the dual mode being used to increase accuracy, just like GPS/Cellular circuits in the iPhone used to improve location accuracy and speed.

 

[1Life]

Biometrics are currently being used for the wrong pieces of the security puzzle.

There are 3 aspects of security that need to be handled.
Identification - Who do I say I am?
Authentication - Can I prove it?
Authorization - What am I allowed to do?

Biometrics are passable when used as part of a system for Identification, *bad* for Authentication, and *worthless* for Authorization. Current systems try to use biometrics for combined Identification and Authorization.

The reason to not use biometrics as your *sole* identification factor are pretty simple. It's damned easy to replicate biometric signatures for the vast majority of systems out there.

Fingerprints are simple, just pick up a glass that the person has touched, and you can use the latent prints to create a 3D fingerprint that will fool virtually every fingerprint reader out there. It doesn't even take any exotic materials for all but the best of them. (I'm talking gelatin that you can buy in at the local grocery store.) Iris scans are better, but have still been broken with high resolution images, despite the fact that they are supposed to require the pulse of blood flow through the iris to work.

But why not use them for Authentication?
Because once it's been replicated it can never be changed! Imagine a password that you can set to anything you want, but you can never change it again. If someone manages to guess it *once*, your accounts will be compromised until the end of time. Fingerprints give you up to 9 do-overs over the course of your entire life, assuming you never lose, or significantly damage a finger tip. Iris or retinal scans only give you 1 do-over.

This is also why biometrics are only passable for Identification if they are used as *part* of an Identification system.

You make it sound like this process is a piece of cake. I watched the episode of MythBusters where they foiled the fingerprint sensors they were testing and it was far from simple. They had to obtain a full print, scan and correct the image and then create a latex skin that was glued to the finger. How many thieves are going to attempt this for the random person? I could see them possibly targeting wealthy victims but it still would be very difficult. Credit card companies have algorithms running checks for strange activity and I doubt that thieves would be able to get much even after going through this whole process.

 

[ibullz]

iPhone 5S or 6 for a break through!?

I'm counting the hours..
I would love that all of this was true:
-Fingerprint
-NFC
-Notification in the metal ring

But would apple create something "new" in a iPhone called 5S?
Doesnt all of this deserve a new name? IPhone 6(!?)

I think we will have better performance, Camera and maybe..maybe.. a new notification signal!

Apple will make it count.. but not for now!

(Sorry my English.. Portuguese here)

 

[mdelvecchio]

Is this new? I mean my wife's atrix did this 3 years ago.

after apple's track record i feel confident that it will be as different from her whatever-phone than the original ipod was from diamond's MP3 player of the day.

 

[Oohara]

In theory your finger doesn't actually have to touch the RF transmitter ring, but I think in practice it's always been done that way.

Hmmm...ok, I think you know these things better than I so I'll stop guessing with no facts to back up my theories

The luminous ring is just too hard to let go of though, it would just look so astounding on the phone! And I still have a bit of trouble seeing how a plain metal ring around the button would make sense from a design perspective. But we'll know tomorrow, anyway.

 

[mdelvecchio]

Where is Apple going with this? Combining fingerprint scanner and NFC in a button is the wrong approach. One would think that a company claiming to do everything perfect would understand this.

youve just betrayed your own ignorance. apple doesnt claim theyre perfect. in fact, Jobs had a major media event where he reminded people they arent perfect, that theyre only human, doing a job just like us. you try to do the best you can and learn.

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Confused people would be able to exit apps just as easily using smaller button (just like they do so on Android). Nobody gets confused by the size of the button.

funny should mention that. people *do* get confused on the android w/ its buttons -- Home, Back, or Menu? my dad has a hard enough time w/ one, let along three.

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/12/05/android-back-button
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/10/31/android-hardware
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/01/16/android-buttons

http://www.androiduipatterns.com/2012/07/i-was-watching-navigation-in-android.html

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More likely being done at the request of the goevernment so they can build up their own ID database for use at crime schemes.

do you realize Amazon doesnt keep your passwords? they store an encrypted, hashed version of what was your password. not your password. same thing with this and fingerprints -- they dont store your prints, they store a hashed version of what your prints are recorded as when scanned by your device.

 

[Battlefield Fan]

What if he doesn't? What if he decides to perform all of his transactions on his iOS device for now on knowing that it has an added level of security not found on his other devices?

Well considering finger print scanners are easily cracked I wouldn't really consider it another measure of security.

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It would just mean he can sign into things much easier on his phone than computer.

But he still has to remember his passwords. He said he could forget them.

 

[kdarling]

The luminous ring is just too hard to let go of though, it would just look so astounding on the phone!

I totally agree that a notification ring would be great. I'm still hoping there is one, plus a fingerprint/gesture sensor to one side hidden under the glass.

Btw, I practiced putting or swiping my thumb on the Home button and each side. It wasn't comfortable if you were trying to line it up vertically. So if there is a sensor, I hope it can read from any angle

(Putting a sensor on the side edge, or top back of a phone case... like other designers do... might make more ergonomic sense.)

As you say, we'll soon see!

 

[Gasu E.]

I've not been a fan of the idea of tying biometrics to Apple products anyway, but whatever your view it's a sad fact that whatever assurances are given over the security of such products don't really mean very much anymore, and this could have a horribly undesirable chilling effect upon innovation and progress.

Biometrics on the iPhone isn't about more security, it's about convenience. It doesn't have to provide any more security than a basic password to be successful. I need both of these to protect me from thieves and hackers, not the NSA. The NSA isn't going to break into my bank account and steal my savings.

 

[Gasu E.]

They need to think how to get rid of this ridiculous button and not how to put more features into it.
...

Also, the problem of remembering many passwords and PINs was solved many years ago (google RoboForm and similar tools).

The value to me to having a fingerprint scanner is pure convenience--I want some security, but I also want to activate it by touch, without having to look at it and type in 6 or 8 characters. I'm sure there are many other people like me. And having a scanner that I can locate by touch seems appropriate for that.

 

[peterdevries]

In Hong Kong the Octopus Card contactless payment/transport NFC system is hugely successful, with over 12 million transactions per day (HKD$130 million) from everything from buying coffee, burgers, supermarket shopping and every mode of public transport in Hong Kong since 1997.

Hardly a small pilot project.

Look at the grand scheme of things.. How big is this in terms of the total user base of the iPhone? In addition how realistic is it that this success will be replicated in other places? NFC is not a case of just adding it to in iPhone and people will start using it. No, other organisations will need to change their hardware and processes to incorporate NFC.

If it has been successful in HongKing since 1997, why do you think it hasn't permeated to other regions? Surely the absence of a chip in the iPhone is the reason for that?

 

[peterdevries]

NFC is not only a consumer focused party trick. It has a lot of industrial and commercial applications for inventory tracking, badge readers and the like. It's possible the commercial side may be slower in adopting it or wait until it matures more from outside use, but it's here to stay.

I agree and I'm aware of that. But NFC for the iPhone would be consumer oriented. The problem here is that besides some successful and less successful projects in some places on the globe, it hasn't gained any wide traction. Many people on this forum assume that retails organisations will change their processes and hardware once Apple introduces it into the iPhone, and indeed some probably will, but is a costly undertaking for a large retail giant that will likely cost millions. In an economic climate where most of these organisations are facing mature markets and stiff competition and need to look at costs, I don't see them having this high ion the priority list.

In addition, many here are ignoring the fact that the iPhone is seeing more stiff competition and is losing its tech forerunner aura of 2007-2010. Organisations might start to doubt whether APple will be able to drive the adoption of new technology through the introduction of this tech in its iPhone.

 

[mdelvecchio]

Criminals who want to steal your devices now have incentive to abduct you, hold you hostage (even if only for a few moments at gunpoint, which obviously increases your danger), because they will need to force you to disable fingerprint protection on your device.

how on earth is that *any different* than having a PIN locked device and thieves forcing you to unlock it? answer: none at all. exactly the same.

some of you people need to write fiction.

 

[blitzer09x87]

Yes. Maybe they had originally intended to announce the phones last week before the patent application was due to be released. Otherwise it seems a bit of a cockup. Mind you we seem to know just about everything else about the new iPhones so I'm not sure this makes much difference. It just adds to the hype surrounding tomorrow.

there is no NFC in the iphone 5S, maybe they'll use this thing in the iphone 6

 

[69650]

there is no NFC in the iphone 5S, maybe they'll use this thing in the iphone 6

Maybe yes. Get people used to the idea of using their iPhone to buy stuff with the fingerprint ID and then next year take it to the next level with NFC. I would have thought mobile payments would be a very lucrative market for Apple. Visa et al get about 2-3% per transaction I think so even if Apple got a small percentage of that it would add up pretty quickly.

I wonder if we'll ever get to the point were all you ever need to carry is your iPhone. It replaces your wallet, tickets, vouchers, keys, etc.

 

[blitzer09x87]

I wonder if we'll ever get to the point were all you ever need to carry is your iPhone. It replaces your wallet, tickets, vouchers, keys, etc.

soon...