Apple Patent Application for Combination Fingerprint Scanner and NFC Circuitry Surfaces

[Porco]

The tinfoil is strong with this one.

Not really.

The SIGNIT Enabling Project actively engages the US and foreign IT industries to covertly influence and/or overtly leverage their commercial products' designs. These design changes make the systems in question exploitable through SIGNIT collection (e.g., Endpoint, MidPoint, etc.) with foreknowledge of the modification. To the consumer and other adversaries, however, the systems' security remains intact.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...l-nsa-campaign-against-encryption.html?ref=us

We are all regarded as adversaries if we want secure technology! So when Apple comes out on the stage this week and tells us 'it's secure' they really mean 'it's secure in the sense that if it's compromised by the NSA (which we're not allowed to tell anyone about if the case), we still consider that secure'.

As a quote in the NYTimes says:

“The risk is that when you build a back door into systems, you’re not the only one to exploit it,” said Matthew D. Green, a cryptography researcher at Johns Hopkins University. “Those back doors could work against U.S. communications, too.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/us/nsa-foils-much-internet-encryption.html?pagewanted=2

A bucket with a secret hole in the bottom is still a bucket with a hole in it.

 

[sransari]

Is this new? I mean my wife's atrix did this 3 years ago.

depends on the whether the claims in the patent application read on something that has been done before. also, there are many ways to skin the cat, so even if the end result is the same, a new way to get to the end result could be patentable.

 

[JobsGang]

Our national debt, global warming, and high divorce rate has me much more worried than a fingerprint scanner.

then go to a political site.This is macrumors where people discuss apple and other tech news.

 

[dirk gently]

I love how some people keep talking about how this will light up and be a notification indicator. Apple could have added a notification light years ago if they wanted. Why would they add one now? I'd bet that this will not light up at all,,, the only outward change noticeable being the metallic ring present which is necessary for the RF fingerprint tech. to work.

Personally I would absolutely love the ( now convex ) home button to also be a little analog stick for games

Interesting possibility.
AppleInsider article on fingerprint reader

As a type of bonus side effect, the tech can also be used as a form of input. By analyzing slight movements or changes in attenuation over time, the system can interpolate gesture behaviors like scrolling, cursor control and, when combined with a physical or virtual button, drag-and-drop operations.

 

[MacAddict1978]

Cannot innovate anymore my ass.

I wouldn't call combining two chips into space saving design innovation in the sense they are criticized for not innovating.

This just helps them keep things smaller and thinner.

NFC and finger print sensors have been in phones for years now. hardly a case of apple innovating. Companies have been forever combining things for this very reason.... like voice chips with data chips.... and chips with other chips... that's all this is.

----------

This! You are on to something there.

NFC would make the iWatch one up that horrible samdung watch.

It would really only be useful though if you were trying to transmit files (pics, music, etc) from the phone to the watch and vice versa. NFC requires the devices to be practically touching or damn near close.

 

[I.Love.Apple]

I would argue that this is not the case. *I would love to have the ability to have my banking app require fingerprint verification.
Have you read about keychain in the cloud coming in iOS 7 and in Mavericks?
It solves your problem of logging into websites with silly passwords. It stores them for you so that when you authenticate for a website with fingerprint it puts the password in for you and does the same for apps. you need to give apple more credit than stupid android manufacturers who implement something like a fingerprint sensor poorly with no infrastructure to back it up, apple always thinks things through before they implement them. As in the case of solving the password problem you mentioned with keychain in the cloud.

When I think of it this way it makes perfect sense to me or any rational person.

This is not different than, say, RoboForm. RoboForm (and other tools) has been doing this in the cloud for many years. In this case, fingerprint serves as a master password. All this functionality could be easily achieved with a master password instead of the fingerprint. Most likely master password will be used anyways even with the fingerprint scanner (as a fall back mechanism in case you cut your finger etc.)

 

[iRockApple]

Where is Apple going with this? Combining fingerprint scanner and NFC in a button is the wrong approach. One would think that a company claiming to do everything perfect would understand this. Large button on a small device is a problem. It wastes a real estate that should be used by a screen. If someone wants a fingerprint scanner the scanner should be placed on the back side of the phone (or, if possible - under the screen). The scanner is used infrequently and thus should not occupy the prime real estate. The same logic (to even greater extent) applies to NFC antenna. Put them on the back side, make button smaller (also consider using software buttons like Google does), increase display size (without increasing phone size) Sure, this might require getting rid of aluminum case which creates problems for NFC (and antennas in general) and wireless charging but since when choosing function over form was a bad thing?

Sounds like you are a FANdroid! According to you Apple should get rid of metal casings, switch to capacitive buttons, and worry wholeheartedly about screen size. Sounds like you want iPhone to become an Android. The home button is not large in its current form and I have yet to hear a rumor claiming they will increase the size. Since you know so much please explain to us why combining a fingerprint scanner and NFC in one is a bad idea?

 

[iRockApple]

My reasoning is simple - Apple is trying to solve the wrong problem. They need to think how to get rid of this ridiculous button and not how to put more features into it. Combining the two features does not require them (the scanner and NFC antenna) to be physically located in the same place. The only reason Apple is thinking about this is because of the aluminum case which prevents Apple from placing NFC antenna anywhere else.

Also, the problem of remembering many passwords and PINs was solved many years ago (google RoboForm and similar tools). Fingerprint scanner will not add anything to this solution (unless you are expecting that all web sites will want to store your fingerprints - and I suspect that you would not really want this anyways).

Once again you are referencing Google...smh. To simply put it, all Apple has to do is create an API that automatically generates a password, for third party authentication, when the user scans his/her finger. For example: If I'm trying to register for online banking, when it prompts me to create a password I simply scan my fingerprint. That in turn creates a secure password that my online banking saves. So, whenever I sign into my online banking that password is input when my unique fingerprint is scanned.

 

[I.Love.Apple]

Sounds like you are a FANdroid! According to you Apple should get rid of metal casings, switch to capacitive buttons, and worry wholeheartedly about screen size. Sounds like you want iPhone to become an Android. The home button is not large in its current form and I have yet to hear a rumor claiming they will increase the size. Since you know so much please explain to us why combining a fingerprint scanner and NFC in one is a bad idea?

There is nothing wrong with admitting that Android phone manufacturers got it right. Large button made sense in 2007. The screen panels back then were small leaving plenty of real estate for large button but situation changed. The button is too large for what it does as it is. It should be reduced in size and give space to a screen. Combining NFC and fingerprint scanner in a button is a bad idea because it means that the button will stay there as is (i.e. large button occupying the space that should belong to a screen). Unless you prefer a 5" iPhone which is as big as 6" Android phone.

 

[Zerilos]

There is nothing wrong with admitting that Android phone manufacturers got it right. Large button made sense in 2007. The screen panels back then were small leaving plenty of real estate for large button but situation changed. The button is too large for what it does as it is. It should be reduced in size and give space to a screen. Combining NFC and fingerprint scanner in a button is a bad idea because it means that the button will stay there as is (i.e. large button occupying the space that should belong to a screen). Unless you prefer a 5" iPhone which is as big as 6" Android phone.

I agree that the button is too large, but at same time I despise capacitive buttons. Samsung, to their credit, did a good job with the home button.

 

[1Life]

There is nothing wrong with admitting that Android phone manufacturers got it right. Large button made sense in 2007. The screen panels back then were small leaving plenty of real estate for large button but situation changed. The button is too large for what it does as it is. It should be reduced in size and give space to a screen. Combining NFC and fingerprint scanner in a button is a bad idea because it means that the button will stay there as is (i.e. large button occupying the space that should belong to a screen). Unless you prefer a 5" iPhone which is as big as 6" Android phone.

Your whole reasoning seems to be based on the idea that everyone wants a larger screen. I will readily admit that there is a demand for it but people like me could care less.

Your Roboform mention is the prime example of how Android deals with things. Offer a new feature that people want but require them to do the set-up and figure out how to make it work. Apple's paradigm is to make the experience as seamless and easy as possible. I don't want to subscribe to Roboform (pay a yearly fee) and access all my websites through their browser on the iPhone. When I want to access banking I want to use my Chase app which is optimized for the iPhone and to authenticate easily using the fingerprint scanner. Take this further....I walk into Target and go to the cash register, open their app, select the pay option, authenticate via scanner and pay using NFC. I would definitely prefer a fingerprint scan to memorizing a 4 digit PIN that can be stolen. That is why I am excited about the possibility of the scanner/NFC combo.

 

[Rogifan]

Image

Image

Lord of the rings?

I don't get the point of this mockup other than someone wants to show their photoshop/illustrator skills.

 

[Glideslope]

I use a phone for work with wireless charging. It's nifty, but not really life changing. Besides, I prefer to dock my phones on my nightstand next to my bed.

Hopefully you'll like the way the 5S uses it's new dock.

 

[iRockApple]

There is nothing wrong with admitting that Android phone manufacturers got it right. Large button made sense in 2007. The screen panels back then were small leaving plenty of real estate for large button but situation changed. The button is too large for what it does as it is. It should be reduced in size and give space to a screen. Combining NFC and fingerprint scanner in a button is a bad idea because it means that the button will stay there as is (i.e. large button occupying the space that should belong to a screen). Unless you prefer a 5" iPhone which is as big as 6" Android phone.

Android manufacturers got a lot of things right, but in my opinion I prefer the aluminum casing (well actually the glass of the 4/4S) to the plastic casings. I also agree that Apple Has some wasted space that could've be used for screen real estate. I don't however believe that it's in the form of the home button. Taking my I5 out of the case I am seeing a good 1/2 inch that could be added length wise to the screen without shrinking the size of the home button. Although a width increase would be necessary also. There are rumors also that Apple is seriously looking into implementing a capacitive home button with haptic feedback. I personally am not a fan of capacitive buttons, but that looks to be the future of buttons

 

[Millah]

Is this new? I mean my wife's atrix did this 3 years ago.

So how's Motorola doing in terms of integrating biometrics in their current phones

There's a reason Moto abandoned the technology very quickly after the Atrix. Because it wasn't all there yet. It was too risky. The technology was not reliable and stopped working. Authentec shopped itself around to all the phone makers before Apple, and none of them were interested because it was too risky and too costly. Apple was the only party interested in further developing the technology and deploying.

You can bet that Apple next week will announce new technology that will have completely solved every challenge that was inherit in yesteryears biometrics technology. One that works reliably and seamlessly. That right there is a BIG difference.

Unfortunately, people like you will never understand that. Thinking that being first to do something, rather than being first to fully do something RIGHT is what matters.

 

[MattInOz]

Bad possibility #2: Criminals who want to steal your devices now have incentive to abduct you, hold you hostage (even if only for a few moments at gunpoint, which obviously increases your danger), because they will need to force you to disable fingerprint protection on your device. In short, it will reduce device theft, but increase the potential danger in situations where determined criminals want your devices. From the point of view of your personal safety, it's better your device is just snatched, as opposed to you having to interact for a longer period of time with the attacker, which leads to possibility of escalation of tensions.

If you are carrying the sort of data that makes you worth kidnapping then you have access to the sort of data that makes you worth kidnapping. Most street criminals want the easy money of fencing the device. Your data is unlikely to get them any more money.

As long as the phone can be wiped of all data and resold without the a fingerprint there is no need for the criminal to "up the anti". The problem is if Apple gets the balance wrong and does more than protect your data with the fingerprint.

 

[kdarling]

There's a reason Moto abandoned the technology very quickly after the Atrix. Because it wasn't all there yet. It was too risky.

What was "too risky"? Fingerprint sensors have been used on handhelds for a decade and a half.

The technology was not reliable and stopped working.

Interestingly, the Motorola Atrix fingerprint sensor you're talking about was from AuthenTec.

Authentec shopped itself around to all the phone makers before Apple, and none of them were interested because it was too risky and too costly. Apple was the only party interested in further developing the technology and deploying.

We don't even know yet what technology was offered as something to invest in. Could be a breakthrough; could be just a combined sensor and NFC antenna. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[captain kaos]

Our national debt, global warming, and high divorce rate has me much more worried than a fingerprint scanner.

The problem is is that people will think its not high on their worry list, and then 5-10 years down the line we wake up and find ourselves in a awful 1984 world and its too late to do anything.

 

[Millah]

Interestingly, the Motorola Atrix fingerprint sensor you're talking about was from AuthenTec.

I realize that. Maybe you should read up more details about the specific technologies and what authentec was doing before Apple "rushed" to buy them. Authentec came to manufacturers with a new technology for biometrics. The sensor in the Atrix was the typical sensor technology that had existed for years. The kind you had to literally swipe your finger with. After a certain amount of time, the swiping would cause the sensors to stop working. Authentec shopped new technology that would eliminate the swiping, no other manufacturers were interested due to the cost and perceived risks. This information is all in authentecs document filings regarding the acquisition, read up about it yourself.

 

[chrmjenkins]

I realize that. Maybe you should read up more details about the specific technologies and what authentec was doing before Apple "rushed" to buy them.

Maybe you should read others' user profiles before you accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about.

 

[pezj]

40 hours and counting down!!!!!

 

[kdarling]

Authentec came to manufacturers with a new technology for biometrics. The sensor in the Atrix was the typical sensor technology that had existed for years. The kind you had to literally swipe your finger with.

It was one type. Both static and swipe sensor types have been around forever. The primary difference is the number of sensors in the array, which is related to cost and available space.

After a certain amount of time, the swiping would cause the sensors to stop working.

A decade ago, maybe. Today, improved overlay materials and static protection give a lifetime that is often specified in the millions of swipes.

Authentec shopped new technology that would eliminate the swiping, no other manufacturers were interested due to the cost and perceived risks. This information is all in authentecs document filings regarding the acquisition, read up about it yourself.

I've read the acquisition document. In fact, I quoted it here the other day.

Can you point out to us where it says what the new technology is, and that it's about "not swiping"? Thanks!

 

[DarkCole]

It would be nice if the ring would also glow when waiting for a readout, or serve as a notification light.

Image

That would be so awesome!

 

[Ay_Zimmy]

Maybe the silver ring is a notification light that the scan worked

 

[Oohara]

I don't get the point of this mockup other than someone wants to show their photoshop/illustrator skills.

They're meant to illustrate what the phone might look like if that ring was real, what's wrong with that? I rather enjoyed those pictures.

If this is real and works as a notification light - definitely a sexy detail.