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Apple Pay Apple Pay in Germany

Support of ApplePay should not be important enough for strategic papers for the future of a billion Euro company. If something like "ApplePay" is mentioned in a ad hoc message of an Enterprise, then you should leave the sinking ship 😁

And if one of the goals is "merge with comdirect", they get ApplePay through the back door anyway.
 
Tobsen said:
So, it seems, that the social media team of Commerzbank altered its tone away from the boilerplate answer … 😉

https://twitter.com/x/status/1175054011248119808
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Which is weird, because the app is ready for Apple Pay and it also surfaced in the Online Banking a few weeks ago. The decisions have obviously been made, why else would they be working on the implementation.

Also ING will probably launch next week Tuesday.
 
sir-hd said:
Which is weird, because the app is ready for Apple Pay and it also surfaced in the Online Banking a few weeks ago. The decisions have obviously been made, why else would they be working on the implementation.

Also ING will probably launch next week Tuesday.
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Commerzbank will get Apple Pay as they merge with comdirect. (BTW: very bad decision to drop the comdirect brand and use Commerzbank instead...)

ING launch next Tuesday would be great. We Just opened an ING account last week and dropped bunq. Would be perfect timing😎
 
Yep, that ING.

Commerzbank getting Apple Pay will surely not depend on comdirect. Their app already contains some preparations for Apple Pay and it also recently appeared in the online banking - so technically everything already seems to be ready. All they need to do is get permission from Apple and push the button. At this rate I assume Sparkasse and Volksbank will overtake them.

I've been switching about between different accounts for my daily payments after dropping a few and cancelling/deleting my accounts ie. with N26. I've been trying out bunq again and I do like their service.

But if Sparkasse just got going and implemented some type of debit card and gave me an immediate overview of my transactions that would also just get the job done.
 
I don’t expect, that Sparkassen will go that far that they implement a (virtual) MC Debit or Visa Debit for Apple Pay but will stick to their regular MC/Visa Credit ... they will launch Apple Pay this year with their charge cards and will wait for GiroCard implementation 2020.
 
sir-hd said:
Commerzbank getting Apple Pay will surely not depend on comdirect. Their app already contains some preparations for Apple Pay and it also recently appeared in the online banking - so technically everything already seems to be ready. All they need to do is get permission from Apple and push the button. At this rate I assume Sparkasse and Volksbank will overtake them.
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My bet is, that they have some exclusive deal with G-Pay, since they were the only ones supporting it in the beginning.
 
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docfred said:
I don’t expect, that Sparkassen will go that far that they implement a (virtual) MC Debit or Visa Debit for Apple Pay but will stick to their regular MC/Visa Credit ... they will launch Apple Pay this year with their charge cards and will wait for GiroCard implementation 2020.
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No one said that 😉 They also won't be offering a debit solution off the bat for Apple Pay. They even say that themselves, that it will be for Visa/Mastercard credit cards fiirst. But even they know, that they can't have just Girocard as a network running on its own as a debit card solution - with an implementation a year later. They need a co-brand, especially to make the card useful outside of Germany. With Visa starting to trash VPay, time is running out.

But: There are actually internal conversations within the Sparkasse group about switching to a DMC/Debit Visa coupled with Girocard, which would accelerate the acceptance and technical implementation. That is a big step though and I hear that it is far from certain that that will happen. The reason is that some backward looking one fear loosing out on cross-selling credit cards. Others hope that it would increase the use of it for online payments and are fearful of loosing money on other projects such as Paydirekt. Source? I can't say. You can either trust me on that or not. But even from the outside we can see that time is running out to make a decision on a future proof debit card solution.
 
sir-hd said:
No one said that 😉 They also won't be offering a debit solution off the bat for Apple Pay. They even say that themselves, that it will be for Visa/Mastercard credit cards fiirst. But even they know, that they can't have just Girocard as a network running on its own as a debit card solution - with an implementation a year later. They need a co-brand, especially to make the card useful outside of Germany. With Visa starting to trash VPay, time is running out.

But: There are actually internal conversations within the Sparkasse group about switching to a DMC/Debit Visa coupled with Girocard, which would accelerate the acceptance and technical implementation. That is a big step though and I hear that it is far from certain that that will happen. The reason is that some backward looking one fear loosing out on cross-selling credit cards. Others hope that it would increase the use of it for online payments and are fearful of loosing money on other projects such as Paydirekt. Source? I can't say. You can either trust me on that or not. But even from the outside we can see that time is running out to make a decision on a future proof debit card solution.
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MC cobranded GiroCard would be nice and is rumored for some time now. I think there are two blocking points:
- Cannibalization of regular MasterCard Credit Card contracts (altough the Debit scheme still causes trouble for the customers in many use cases)
- i wouldn‘t bet, that the MasterCard number will be shown to the customer. The maestro number is hidden too today.

I see both sides:
The market wants cheap and established solutions. The banks don’t want to lose control over the card schemes.
Nobody should want an all American payment market.
(Pointing at the White House ...)
 
I honestly think the switch away from Maestro and VPay is bound to happen since Mastercard is trying to get rid of Maestro and Visa is trying to get rid of VPay (just look at Austria and Switzerland, there are some news over there). This means that German banks have no other chance than to switch to MCD and VD. Only question is when. Judging by the the current market situation, it'll definitely be happening soon since there are only a handful of countries where Maestro/VPay are a standard (Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland). I'd give them 2 years max.
 
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But wasn’t the latest rumours that ING would launch in september? September is over as far as I know...
 
It's a disgrace. Shifted away from ING. The switch because of PSD II has been a mess and the new Visa Debit isn't actually debit at all. They promised (even in their T&Cs) that payments would be debited at the end of the day. Yet payments still remain unsettled on the account for up to a week and aren't reflected in the total balance. It's just a messy experience with them...

DKB, bunq and Sparkasse it will be... and just a few months ago I didn't think I would say that! All three have their priorities right and are a great combination - each for different reasons. I don't think I will miss ING at all... just a better UX with the other three and less ads 😎

BTW: Since yesterday (Tuesday) bunq allows adding the Travel "Credit" card to Apple Pay!
 
ING does Accounting right. Pending transactions are pending transactions until they get cleared by the network and the providers. That’s simply correct in display under an accounting view. And That’s the way MC/Visa Credit and Debit schemes work. Bunq or N26 just don‘t show it to you in the balance, even if they have to wait for clearing also. (But they do show now a „pending“ tag, what they did not back in the past iirc)

but I agree the normal Customer preferes that the account balance is reduced by the pending payments too.
A toogle to switch the primary shown balance would be nice. On their website ING shows both:
The correct balance by accounting standards and the „available“ balance.

The customer should decide what he wants to see. And it should be implemented in the app.

In the end, the real question is: why does clearing take up so long? Even MC/Visa and all payment providers and networks in the background still work with batch processing. At least for clearing.
 
Btw: ING replied on their website to the rumors

Hallo zusammen, die Meldung über die Verschiebung von Apple Pay auf iphone-Ticker können wir nicht bestätigen. Apple Pay verschiebt sich nicht, weil wir noch gar keinen konkreten Termin genannt haben. Sobald es losgeht, melden wir uns. Aber zur Info: Wir sind so gut wie startklar, es gibt noch ein paar offene Abstimmungsthemen. Es bleibt dabei: Coming soon. „Soon“ heißt auch wirklich demnächst. Viele Grüße, Ihr Social Media Team
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between all this hate and ****storm because of the iPhone-Bild. What‘s wrong with people today?
 
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Tobsen said:
ING, this are the guys who dropped HBCI?
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There is a comment on this topic on the Payment&Banking blog from a fintech/international view:
paymentandbanking.com

Replik: Warum die eigene PSD2-Welt der deutschen ING die europäische Zukunft ist

Ich schätze Klaus Igel als HBCI/FinTS- und PSD2-Experten sehr, auch weil wir in der Regel einer Meinung sind. Was nicht überrascht, denn unsere
paymentandbanking.com paymentandbanking.com

And as things like Girocard are often called "German Sonderweg", that have to be cutted. HBCI/FinTS is within the same category.
 
docfred said:
And as things like Girocard are often called "German Sonderweg", that have to be cutted. HBCI/FinTS is within the same category.
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No, this time not. Germany was, I think, the only country which hat an open API to every bank (first BTX, then HBCI and FinTS). France for example does not have such thing, there are also no home banking apps.

HBCI and also EBICS are working APIs, there is no need for security reasons to shut them down. What PSD2 did, is cutting home banking apps. They have no change to get access to the API.

The PSD2 does also not define the API, this was done by a third party organization: https://www.berlin-group.org/psd2-access-to-bank-accounts
 
docfred said:
ING does Accounting right. Pending transactions are pending transactions until they get cleared by the network and the providers. That’s simply correct in display under an accounting view. And That’s the way MC/Visa Credit and Debit schemes work. Bunq or N26 just don‘t show it to you in the balance, even if they have to wait for clearing also. (But they do show now a „pending“ tag, what they did not back in the past iirc)

but I agree the normal Customer preferes that the account balance is reduced by the pending payments too.
A toogle to switch the primary shown balance would be nice. On their website ING shows both:
The correct balance by accounting standards and the „available“ balance.

The customer should decide what he wants to see. And it should be implemented in the app.

In the end, the real question is: why does clearing take up so long? Even MC/Visa and all payment providers and networks in the background still work with batch processing. At least for clearing.
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of the technicality behind pending and non-pending (processed) transactions. If you go back and read my post... "They (ING) promised (even in their T&Cs) that payments would be debited at the end of the day. Yet payments still remain unsettled on the account for up to a week and aren't reflected in the total balance."

Even the more "traditional" DKB or Sparkasse does this for their credit card. Yet ING seem to be fairly incompetent with regards to changing from the way card transactions used to be processed to what their terms and conditions state... so no: They're not doing accounting right! Transactions should be debited at the end of the day (as with any decent debit card) as in their T&Cs or shown as pending and deducted from the overall balance - which they do online, but their app seems to be unable to subtract. Either they improve on the current situation or just leave it completely. But as with many things ING has just done half a job - and not especially a good one. The best implementation is by Revolut: You get your available balance shown immediately and pending transactions have a little clock icon next to them. This is how it should be with all banks, giving a full overview of what is going on. The worst is with Deutsche Bank. I pay and the balance doesn't show up (nor the pending transaction) until it has gone through. Not nice, but still better that way and the correct way of dealing with the balance.

After the debacle last year with ING calling Apple Pay a "hype", mucking up the transition to the new banking app and destroying their own workforce, I feel like going back to the partly more traditional banks (may I name Sparkasse or DKB?) and some more progressive ones is the best decision. ING seems to be caught up inbetween, throwing in some "agility" and making large numbers of long-time employees leave. Not good, not good at all...
 
sir-hd said:
I'm well aware of the technicality behind pending and non-pending (processed) transactions. If you go back and read my post... "They (ING) promised (even in their T&Cs) that payments would be debited at the end of the day. Yet payments still remain unsettled on the account for up to a week and aren't reflected in the total balance."

Even the more "traditional" DKB or Sparkasse does this for their credit card. Yet ING seem to be fairly incompetent with regards to changing from the way card transactions used to be processed to what their terms and conditions state... so no: They're not doing accounting right! Transactions should be debited at the end of the day (as with any decent debit card) as in their T&Cs or shown as pending and deducted from the overall balance - which they do online, but their app seems to be unable to subtract. Either they improve on the current situation or just leave it completely. But as with many things ING has just done half a job - and not especially a good one. The best implementation is by Revolut: You get your available balance shown immediately and pending transactions have a little clock icon next to them. This is how it should be with all banks, giving a full overview of what is going on. The worst is with Deutsche Bank. I pay and the balance doesn't show up (nor the pending transaction) until it has gone through. Not nice, but still better that way and the correct way of dealing with the balance.

After the debacle last year with ING calling Apple Pay a "hype", mucking up the transition to the new banking app and destroying their own workforce, I feel like going back to the partly more traditional banks (may I name Sparkasse or DKB?) and some more progressive ones is the best decision. ING seems to be caught up inbetween, throwing in some "agility" and making large numbers of long-time employees leave. Not good, not good at all...
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As I said, I agree that the available balance should be shown in the App too and the customer should have the choice what balance he wants to see as Standard.

but they can not settle the transactions at the end of the day by standard. The transactions can be settled when the transactions have been cleared by the payment network. Even at bunq I had payments in "pending" status for several days. My S-MC Gold also, settlement between "same day" and "several days".

And this is necessary, because as long as the clearing did not happen, it is still your Money and it is still "at your account". you would still get your interest (if we still had something like this in Europe...) until the paymet has been settled -> value date

In the end, that's not so important to average customers. they want to know "what is my available balance?" and there we are back at the free choice, what you want to see.
 
I don't want to keep repeating myself... I suggest you have (another?) look at the terms and conditions that ING implemented on the 14th September, coinciding with the switch to Visa Debit.
Please read point 6 on page 16.
Die Kartenumsätze werden am Tag des Eingangs bei der ING auf dem Girokonto gebucht.
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ING has promised several times, that - contrary to before - card payments will be settled at the end of the day in which they are handed in. With most payments being online, that should be the case on the day of payment (or the day after at the very latest).

It depends on the implementation of the debit card, ie. some cards I have from the UK have pending transactions for several days, others are processed at the end of the day. ING has stated clearly in their T&Cs, has promised switching all cards to Visa Debit by 14.09. and both of those things have not happened.
 
Even with Debit cards transactions are not finished the moment you do your payment on the terminal.

In general, the payment get requested and the fullfilment happens at a later date.

Look at following screenshot in the Revolut app:

image.png


You can also see this pending state in the Apple Wallet till it got finished.

This timespan is nothing that is caused by the bank.
 
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