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Apple Pay Rewards Program to Debut at WWDC

Michael Goff said:
You can hardly copy using standards. That's why they're standards. NFC payment is a concept. I don't know if Google was the first to use the idea. Do you really need me to explain how NFC payments work?



So a special Apple USB is now different if it has a fingerprint sensor on it? Seriously, it's all NFC payments. Just like all USB drives are just that, USB drives. Also, like I explained, Google had tokenization already. The difference comes between a digital token and the type kept in the secure unit such as with AP. Seriously, though, there's nothing special about NFC payments. Apple just has more clout.
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I know more about how NFC works than you ever will. Again, as I explained earlier, it's a transport layer, so everyone can use it. But you have to stop pretending that once NFC us used, everything else is just details. That's what's getting me ticked off here. You're trying to minimize the most important aspects to all of this. If it were just NFC that mattered, then everyone could do it easily, and would have already done so.

NFC was around long before Google decided to use it. It evolved from the old RDIF standard. In the early 2000's Nokia tried to push its own NFC payments system, but it failed. Even before that, other companies in the mid to late '90's tried it.

When Google came out with Google Wallet in 2011, it had a lot of problems. You could use it with some credit cards, but not really. You had to preload cash into the Wallet from them. Several months after it came out MasterCard had a deal with, I think it was, Citibank. So if you harped a Citibank account, and a Citibank MasterCard, you could use that as a debit card, at first, and later on, as a credit card.

That actually how this started. I don't remember all the details, I would have to look them up.

You really are stubborn. Can you be that ignorant about all of this?
 
Michael Goff said:
I can't disprove your credit card thing in the past, but I can disprove it today. Maybe that was a change at some point? Of course, I highly doubt that because Visa licensed their system to use in 2011 (the same year MasterCard did). Also, debit cards are great for consumers. Spending more money than you have is something that isn't a good thing in the slightest.
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In 2013, you could use regular credit cards, if the card companies and banks agreed. There are a number of those who work with Google. But Apple Pay already has a lot more credit card companies, banks and credit unions signed up than Google has. I suppose they will catch up at some point.

If you're so bad with credit that you shouldn't use a credit card, then a debit card will still allow you to wipe out your bank account. But you still have none of the fraud protection that you have with a credit card, which is a worse problem.
 
melgross said:
I know more about how NFC works than you ever will. Again, as I explained earlier, it's a transport layer, so everyone can use it. But you have to stop pretending that once NFC us used, everything else is just details. That's what's getting me ticked off here. You're trying to minimize the most important aspects to all of this. If it were just NFC that mattered, then everyone could do it easily, and would have already done so.

NFC was around long before Google decided to use it. It evolved from the old RDIF standard. In the early 2000's Nokia tried to push its own NFC payments system, but it failed. Even before that, other companies in the mid to late '90's tried it.

When Google came out with Google Wallet in 2011, it had a lot of problems. You could use it with some credit cards, but not really. You had to preload cash into the Wallet from them. Several months after it came out MasterCard had a deal with, I think it was, Citibank. So if you harped a Citibank account, and a Citibank MasterCard, you could use that as a debit card, at first, and later on, as a credit card.

That actually how this started. I don't remember all the details, I would have to look them up.

You really are stubborn. Can you be that ignorant about all of this?
Click to expand...

melgross said:
In 2013, you could use regular credit cards, if the card companies and banks agreed. There are a number of those who work with Google. But Apple Pay already has a lot more credit card companies, banks and credit unions signed up than Google has. I suppose they will catch up at some point.

If you're so bad with credit that you shouldn't use a credit card, then a debit card will still allow you to wipe out your bank account. But you still have none of the fraud protection that you have with a credit card, which is a worse problem.
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Both of these posts kind of seem to put more weight behind the idea that Apple's clout is the thing that helped them out. Also, the 'I know more than you ever will about X' is just cliche and stupid. Also, my bank does fraud protection. I don't know why you think debit cards don't do fraud protection.
 
Michael Goff said:
Both of these posts kind of seem to put more weight behind the idea that Apple's clout is the thing that helped them out. Also, the 'I know more than you ever will about X' is just cliche and stupid. Also, my bank does fraud protection. I don't know why you think debit cards don't do fraud protection.
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If you have a problem with a vendor, and you've already paid with a debit card, you have to negotiate with that vendor on your own. You have no clout, other than yelling that you will never buy there again. The only fraud protection you have from the bank is if someone using your card. You have no fraud protection against a dishonest vendor.
I was responding to your disingenuous question of your asking me if I wanted to have you explain how NFC works. I thought that to be pretentious.

And I'm still waiting for you to give us that detailed explanation of how the systems work.
 
melgross said:
If you have a problem with a vendor, and you've already paid with a debit card, you have to negotiate with that vendor on your own. You have no clout, other than yelling that you will never buy there again. The only fraud protection you have from the bank is if someone using your card. You have no fraud protection against a dishonest vendor.
I was responding to your disingenuous question of your asking me if I wanted to have you explain how NFC works. I thought that to be pretentious.

And I'm still waiting for you to give us that detailed explanation of how the systems work.
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But you said earlier that you didn't want to know how NFC works. Which is it?
 
melgross said:
In 2013, you could use regular credit cards, if the card companies and banks agreed. There are a number of those who work with Google. But Apple Pay already has a lot more credit card companies, banks and credit unions signed up than Google has. I suppose they will catch up at some point.
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That's exactly backwards. Apple Pay is far behind Google Wallet in accepted cards, and probably could never catch up.

Google Wallet never needed banks to sign up. And by 2012 you could register virtually any major credit or debit card as the hidden payment source(s). No agreement was necessary to make purchases.
 
kdarling said:
That's exactly backwards. Apple Pay is far behind Google Wallet in accepted cards, and probably could never catch up.

Google Wallet never needed banks to sign up. And by 2012 you could register virtually any major credit or debit card as the hidden payment source(s). No agreement was necessary to make purchases.
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Again, not true. Show where you got that info.
 
Michael Goff said:
But you said earlier that you didn't want to know how NFC works. Which is it?
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I never said that. I may have said that I don't need to have it explained to me, which is different. I may have said that it doesn't matter for the discussion at hand. But I know how it works. Do you?

And again, you confuse these systems Apple and Google are using with NFC. NFC is just the way to get the data in the terminal, it does nothing else by itself.

But you still refuse to explain how these companies aystems work. Perhaps you don't understand how they work?

What's happening in the phones? Where is your personal info stored and how?

How is the identity verification carried out?

How does the terminal handle the transaction?

How does Apple or Google handle the transaction?

Where does that transaction data go from the terminal?

Is it stored somewhere, and if so, where?

There are a lot of parts to this, and those are only a few. With your insistence that NFC is IT, you don't seem to understand how complex it all is, and how Apple and Google do it differently.

NFC is like the door to a cab. You open it and get in. Once you're in, there are lots of other things that need to happen for you to get where you want to go, and then pay for it.
 
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melgross said:
I never said that. I may have said that I don't need to have it explained to me, which is different. I may have said that it doesn't matter for the discussion at hand. But I know how it works. Do you?

And again, you confuse these systems Apple and Google are using with NFC. NFC is just the way to get the data in the terminal, it does nothing else by itself.

But you still refuse to explain how these companies aystems work. Perhaps you don't understand how they work?

What's happening in the phones? Where is your personal info stored and how?

How is the identity verification carried out?

How does the terminal handle the transaction?

How does Apple or Google handle the transaction?

Where does that transaction data go from the terminal?

Is it stored somewhere, and if so, where?

There are a lot of parts to this, and those are only a few. With your insistence that NFC is IT, you don't seem to understand how complex it all is, and how Apple and Google do it differently.

NFC is like the door to a cab. You open it and get in. Once you're in, there are lots of other things that need to happen for you to get where you want to go, and then pay for it.
Click to expand...

Okay then. Explain how they work and how they're different.
 
melgross said:
Again, not true. Show where you got that info.
Click to expand...

Clearly we cannot be talking about the same thing. You said that:

melgross said:
... Apple Pay already has a lot more credit card companies, banks and credit unions signed up than Google has.
Click to expand...

Since Google Wallet does not require those entities to sign up in order to let users register their cards, Google works with far more cards by default. You can register any (US) AMEX, Mastercard, Visa or Discover card.

For example, I think Chase still does not allow their Presidential Plus card to work with Apple Pay, but I registered it long ago in Google Wallet... because no Chase permission was needed. Ditto for cards from hundreds of smaller banks and credit unions.
 
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