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JHankwitz

macrumors 68000
Oct 31, 2005
1,911
58
Wisconsin
So by your definitions, Ansel Adams wasn't a true photographer...?

I don't think you're being fair. Photography can encompasses an entire gamut of things including in camera settings and PP. Years back in was the dark room. Now the dark room has been moved onto the computer. Same tools are available. As long as you don't stray too far off from the original, I think it's still considered "photography." Putting in a different sky wouldn't be photography IMO.

I think those that define a true photographer as one who doesn't do PP are those who either can't or don't want to learn Photoshop or similar apps. To each his/her own.

Adams was a true photographer in that he was able to capture a scene and present it at it's best without artificially adding or deleting things that were or weren't there in the first place.

I think you're seeing the terms 'photoshop', 'illistrator', 'photography', and 'photographer' as the same thing. A photographer has the knowledge and ability to capture the escence of a scene. Photography provides tools to do it. Photoshop is an illustration tool used as a tool to create or turn a scene into something that never existed. There's nothing wrong with Photoshop (other than the new liscensing plan). It creates a lot of great looking images, but these images are being created by an 'illistrator', not a 'photographer'. When you put down your camera and launch Photoshop, you switch from being a photographer to being an illustrator.
 
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Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
You have obviously never worked in a professional photographic studio such as this.

First of all, the post production work will usually be done in house, Secondly, it won't take days. Thirdly they do not 're-do' textures or 'paint' anything. Besides adding the screen content and perhaps cloning out the odd dust spot etc, pretty much everything is taken in the camera as the guy says. I love how people just 'assume' that because the images appear so perfect they must be all faked and cgi or 'photoshopped to death'. They look so perfect because the products themselves are incredibly well designed/built and the photography is incredibly good.

Art directors and clients are always screwing with and "fine tuning" images in post at the agency. The images may be PSed to death or just tastefully refined based on the folks involved.

This is just nice product photography and for that you need the best possible copy of the product and a competent operator. The idea that some kind of special sauce is involved because it is Apple is silly. All the great Companies, Agencies, and ADs demand quality.

As to camera choice this kind of shoot is best done with a view camera for technical reasons I use Arca Swiss but Sinar though not my choice will do just
fine.

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Adams was a true photographer in that he was able to capture a scene and present it at it's best without artificially adding or deleting things that were or weren't there in the first place.

Adams spent months per image in the dark room adjusting lighting and contrast to create his vision of the scene. He added or subtracted contrast globally and value locally because limitations of his equipment, materials, and actual lighting conditions present at the time of exposure prevented a "true" rendering of the subject.

This approach is very much what photographers do today in programs like PS.
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
Just look at the subject, metal and glass. The level of faceting is very fine giving that not quite mirror like appearance, so it emphasizes the way that highly opaque objects have a tendency to display direct reflections of whatever is lighting them. It gets more complicated with metal, as the intensity of light reflected relative to the angle of the surface in relation to the viewpoint gets somewhat more complicated than it would with something like plastic (yes it was a samsung joke). I mentioned digital backs simply because they help capture the most gradation possible across such surfaces and cleaner lines when it comes to outlining. At the same time I didn't want to attribute things in weird ways. Someone that does that much work of the same subject matter knows what will hold up at what output size due to past experience.

I am a little surprised it's still that split between photography and renders used in animation when it should be possible to reuse the shaders in each.

Simple Physics angle of incidence=angle of reflection. Basic product photography techniques made more complex.

Ahh the pen tool sharpening soft edges for decades.

I would choose a view camera and Back for two reasons. Perspective/focus control and higher resolution. The DSLR has it's place but when size matters there is no substitute for 80mp and view camera lenses.
 

furi0usbee

macrumors 68000
Jul 11, 2008
1,790
1,382
This is the best product photography I've ever seen, hands down. I always assumed, like many, that much of their stuff was rendered. You learn something new everyday. For those people complaining about post production on pictures, etc. I don't care what type of camera you have, a $100 camera or a $10,000 camera, no camera is going to give you the "perfect" picture. If that were true, Adobe would have gone out of business years ago.

Aside from color correction, cropping, levels, etc. there are a million and one things you can do to get the desired look you want. Remember, photography is an art, and it doesn't stop when you press and click. The final result is just as important.

For that matter, all of those HDR photogs are probably cheating... some would think. They are lying. No, they are using many different mediums to achieve their art. I heard someone complain about lighting... lighting is the most important aspect. If you have bad lighting, nothing after that matters. Of course they are going to use optimal lighting, perfect lighting. Would you want your product to look like an eBay pic?

Taking a picture starts long before the click and ends long after you see the image in the preview LCD. Anyone can press a button, it's the good photographers that get the beginning and end right all the time.

Bryan
 

thekev

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2010
7,005
3,343
Simple Physics angle of incidence=angle of reflection. Basic product photography techniques made more complex.

Ahh the pen tool sharpening soft edges for decades.

I would choose a view camera and Back for two reasons. Perspective/focus control and higher resolution. The DSLR has it's place but when size matters there is no substitute for 80mp and view camera lenses.

I know simple physics:p. I wasn't referring to what you see in the reflection but rather intensity. I usually see it referred to as a fresnel effect, but metallic objects don't really behave quite the same way. It was also kind of a spinoff from the mention of CG, as good metal shaders tend to be annoying to build.

Do you mean made more complex in perception? He seems to get most of it done via lighting and just pen mask a few small details that are too small to accentuate with lighting + drop in screens replacements. It's definitely not too post heavy. I meant that it's much easier to accurately track fine lines when you have that much detail. Sometimes on dslrs they get obscured by noise and anti-aliasing.
 

weberda

macrumors newbie
Mar 17, 2009
2
0
Silver Spring, MD
Cheap journalism

Come on MacRumors get it right!! He doesn't shoot the Apple product photos with a Canon 5D Mark III. If you read the Verge article, he uses a Sinar 4x5 camera for his studio work.

Apple wouldn't pay a photographer to shoot their product shots with a 35mm camera!! Come on, get the facts straight people. Read the article!!!

Lazy journalism.....
 

coolspot18

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2010
1,051
90
Canada
interesting i always assumed those shots are actually just renderings on the computer. u know .. like the food you see in commercials being plastic

According to MacDonalds they use a real burger. There is a video on YouTube that shows how MacDonalds dresses up a burger for a commercial.
 

576316

macrumors 601
May 19, 2011
4,056
2,556
Well it's likely that this became a working relationship at a time when 3d renderings were not as good as they are today. Software used to be much more expensive, and rendering times at the output resolution levels that product photographers often use can mean a lot of memory and long render times. Much of the time renders are used simply because they can be created before a physical model is available. You still have to take whatever cad data and convert it to an even level of tessellation that shows off all details, organize all of those objects and weld any vertices along patch lines, clean up any existing triangles, UV the thing as it's natural to apply these screen dropins and things as projected textures rather than add in post.

At that point you're still setting up lights just as you would on a photoshoot. A big difference is that rather than possibly setting up different lighting sets for different details and comping in post, you can do a lot of that lighting control via linking. It's still a lot of work, and in the end renders are still photoshopped anyway as that's often faster than developing a gargantuan shader stack trying to the perfect metallic reflections (google complex index of refraction, most raytracers advocate a multiplied "fresnel IOR" setting to make it shiny, but the results come out a lot flatter, and it still slows down quite a lot if you try to manipulate channel by channel to get the right metallic color).

TLDR it does take a lot work to get images to that level of polish regardless of methodology.

Edit: I meant to say it takes work and I wonder how much of it is Apple not wanting to release almost a full set of CAD data to another vendor.

Thanks for your reply. Most of that sounded like "sdads adoahdaofoag asodisahjdopasg aposfdihjaofsdffhofhaosihfohja." But all the same, a great read!
 

tmroper

macrumors regular
Dec 4, 2008
121
0
Palo Alto
If you go to the original article on The Verge, you will see him on a video, working with what looks like a large format camera on a gigantic tripod/stand. Later on the article he acknowledges:



Not trying to start a flames war, but MacRumors got it wrong when they wrote "He captures the majority of his images with the Canon 5D Mark III".

The photographer himself was a little confusing or misleading on this. In the interview he first says that the Canon is his go-to camera, then he goes on to talk about the work he does in his studio, then mentions he uses another camera (PhaseOne) in that studio. Maybe he gets paid by Canon to mention them in things like this. It's not a big deal; it's just sort of glaring.
 

Akuratyde

macrumors regular
Feb 7, 2011
249
1
To everyone saying they thought the product shots were renders: a lot of them are. I know that because I've recreated several of them in Photoshop and they look identical to the images on Apple's website. The curves are too exact and the gradients too perfect to be real photos. I do believe that some of them are (heavily edited) photos but many of them are purely Photoshop creations.
 

uknowimright

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2011
812
416
all 4 of those iPhones in the OP have the same lighting on their aluminum bands, that is definitely a mix of an original photograph and then duplicates made and cleaned up in PS
 

Razeus

macrumors 603
Jul 11, 2008
5,348
2,030
A true photographer would always want to show off original shots since any hack can snap a shot and PS it. There's a big difference between a true photographer and an illustrator. A photographer has the ability and knowledge to capture reality and make it look great, while an illustrator creates a great illustration that's not real. Photographers have become a dying breed since PS was born almost 30 years ago. It’s great to see that some photographers are still prospering.

A true photographer wants to show the image as he sees it, not the original image. Trust me, you don't want to show someone your RAW files. Never.
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
I know simple physics:p. I wasn't referring to what you see in the reflection but rather intensity. I usually see it referred to as a fresnel effect, but metallic objects don't really behave quite the same way. It was also kind of a spinoff from the mention of CG, as good metal shaders tend to be annoying to build.

Do you mean made more complex in perception? He seems to get most of it done via lighting and just pen mask a few small details that are too small to accentuate with lighting + drop in screens replacements. It's definitely not too post heavy. I meant that it's much easier to accurately track fine lines when you have that much detail. Sometimes on dslrs they get obscured by noise and anti-aliasing.

Metal is the most predictable of all and intensity is a matter of light placement, modification, and power. I mean that reflective objects are pretty much product photography 101 and knocking out an iPhone is pentoolng 101 regardless of the resolution.

The image at the start of this thread is nice but most likely the product of 5 or so captures/layers not including screens. The phones appear to be identical and based on the angle of the image the apple and logo on the back of the first phone would reflect the back of the 2nd phone if they were shot in place.
 

bocomo

macrumors 6502
Jun 29, 2007
495
0
New York
almost all professional photos are fake. they are photoshopped to death and taken under ideal lighting conditions. thousands of photos are taken to select a few choice ones

like the food photos for fast food ads. they go to whole foods market of all places to find the best looking veggies

there is nothing "fake" about that -- just skill

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No photographer wants to show that.

no insecure photographer, that is

----------

Commercial artists use renderings and photoshop, while true photographers do it all in the camera.

It's against the law to use 'fake' food substitutes when it's the food being advertised and sold. If you're selling dinner plates or glasses, it's OK to use fake (plactic) food to compliment them.

what a joke!
 

/dev/toaster

macrumors 68020
Feb 23, 2006
2,478
249
San Francisco, CA
almost all professional photos are fake. they are photoshopped to death and taken under ideal lighting conditions. thousands of photos are taken to select a few choice ones

like the food photos for fast food ads. they go to whole foods market of all places to find the best looking veggies

90% of photography is about lighting. So of course it will be ideal lighting conditions.

Post production in photography and cinema is essential. You can't get consistant levels of quality without it.

Ask your self, would you -really- buy a product that looked like crap or was poor quality ? Walk into a small deli, the ones with pictures from 1970s as the food items. Do they make you hungry ?
 

/dev/toaster

macrumors 68020
Feb 23, 2006
2,478
249
San Francisco, CA
A true photographer would always want to show off original shots since any hack can snap a shot and PS it. There's a big difference between a true photographer and an illustrator. A photographer has the ability and knowledge to capture reality and make it look great, while an illustrator creates a great illustration that's not real. Photographers have become a dying breed since PS was born almost 30 years ago. It’s great to see that some photographers are still prospering.

Thats like saying that a carpenter who uses a power saw or power sander isn't a true craftsmen because they aren't doing it by hand.

A tool is a tool, it isn't magic. You still need to know how to apply the tool correctly and in artistic ways.
 

thekev

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2010
7,005
3,343
Metal is the most predictable of all and intensity is a matter of light placement, modification, and power. I mean that reflective objects are pretty much product photography 101 and knocking out an iPhone is pentoolng 101 regardless of the resolution.

The image at the start of this thread is nice but most likely the product of 5 or so captures/layers not including screens. The phones appear to be identical and based on the angle of the image the apple and logo on the back of the first phone would reflect the back of the 2nd phone if they were shot in place.

I know I've had to knock out product shots and illustrate simple backgrounds at times myself. I don't know anyone that would shoot those all in the same place. It would just create a lot of extra reflections. Regarding metal, note it was tied to what I mentioned about creating shaders. I put a link regarding complex index of refraction. Raytracers often take awkward approaches to it, which I mention because of people mentioning renders. Whatever shop produces the images is most likely using something like mental ray. A common solution is set the refraction shader to something excessively high, but I think it looks weird as the reflections tend to look flat compared to real metal.

It's obviously different photographing it, but do you think they didn't adjust those corner gradients in post? Those seem like the most likely point to me. I figured they shot them separately, did all the outlines, brightened up certain buttons and cleaned up any internal dust, and accomplished the screen dropin and surface reflection that way (due to the screen change).


Thanks for your reply. Most of that sounded like "sdads adoahdaofoag asodisahjdopasg aposfdihjaofsdffhofhaosihfohja." But all the same, a great read!

Reading it back it looks like I wrote it in a caffeine frenzy:D. I'll explain better. It's typical to render things as polygons, but cad data doesn't start off that way. It's often made of patches. It has to be converted into 3 or 4 sided polygons at a density that won't make the renders look jagged. They can't use typical methods that would smooth out closeups of polygonal objects at render time, because those tend to flatten things out. CAD models are different. The curvature tends to increase in appearance between anchor points if it's sampled at a finer level. I could probably mock up an example.

When I said "UV" it just means laying out 3 dimensional faces in 2D so that 2D textures can be easily applied without excessive stretching. This would be important when applying an image replacement to the glass. It shouldn't be terribly difficult or important on a phone, but it varies. If there are any problems applying an even texture, you end up dealing with UVs in most situations, even if it's just resolving overlap.


Light linking means you can tell a "fake" cg light to only affect certain objects in the scene, cast shadows only, or break any other physical rules. In photography some things that are difficult to light might be shot under different lighting setups and comped together. This is common with cars when it comes to flanges and wheel flares. Light linking just alleviates the need to do separate renders for that, but it should be used sparingly.

Wiki has a good enough explanation of the issue of creating artificial metallic reflections. Of course whatever studio deals with this stuff would already have starting values worked out for generic metals with whatever rendering package they use that can be augmented to get the right look.

Anyway it still takes time to set that stuff up. There are a lot of things that can be rendered where photographers are still employed. Renders are most common where a physical model isn't available for whatever reason or for things that would be ridiculously expensive to construct within the available timeline. It hasn't put all of these photographers out of business, but I suspect it has reduced the workload of some.
 

reel2reel

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2009
627
46
This guy is hilarious. Does he have no idea that his photos get taken to the agency and worked on in photoshop for days after he is "done". They get cleaned up, screens added, textures redone, hi-lights painted, glass cleaned, lighting fixed, logos reimported from vector art, etc, etc...

Wow, a person who loves to insult someone's work, despite the fact you know nothing about it.

You don't see that much on the internet.
 

Jeffacme

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2006
70
0
It's obviously different photographing it, but do you think they didn't adjust those corner gradients in post? Those seem like the most likely point to me. I figured they shot them separately, did all the outlines, brightened up certain buttons and cleaned up any internal dust, and accomplished the screen dropin and surface reflection that way (due to the screen change).

I think they did all that and more which in my mind negates the get it all in camera mantra espoused in the article. Making the image heavily worked over in post. Nothing wrong with that but even the iPhone 3Gs image in the video is extensively retouched which renders much of the photographic capture purity discussion moot.
 
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