Apple Planning 'Something Really Different' for New Mac Pro

[shaunp]

I fear that Apple will create not an easily expandable and upgradeable professional machine, but will rather follow its odd new vision of proprietary machines where you cant even upgrade the ram!

For me its been a painful realization that Apple dont give a F about their professional users anymore, those users being the basis of their revival back in the mid '90s with apple domination in desktop publishing.

The iphone generation is a blip on the radar screen. Those folks will jump ship when the next fad rolls around and although its an easier device to make and they sell alot of them, there are people like myself who have built careers around Apple hardware and OS. Faithful, longtime, professional users are being thrown under the bus!!!

Shame on you Apple for forgetting your roots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"

Could agree more. I built a PC because Apple don't make a desktop I want. If (When) they ditch the cMBP they won't make a laptop I want either - I want a matt screen and a physical ethernet port (not a ******** dongle!). I really need a new phone, but if there is no decent roadmap for desktop and laptops then I'll be buying an S4 and a thinkpad when it's time to replace my laptop. Utter morons.

 

[RBR2]

<snip>As it is Apple is losing the professional photo and video people.

So true and so sad. Apple needs to do something to stop this trend. I am concerned that the company is simply becoming the iDevice company and tolerates computers at all simply because they are an accessory to the iDevices.

 

[Umbongo]

Wow - how pompous!
The Mac Pro is just Apple's current name for their tower Mac and it is used by many different people for many different things.
It’s often referred to as a workstation as they've chosen to use workstation processors in it, but prior to that is was a G5 and in every other respect is just a tower like the generations of towers before it.
Someone wanting a more affordable i7 based Mac Pro isn't any less credible for it. They are not saying that there shouldn't be the top end heavy duty workstation Mac Pro's too.
You may use your Mac Pro in really intensive professional environments, but many Mac Pro owners don't. They just like the flexibility of owning a tower and their point of view on what the next Mac Pro should be like is no less credible than yours.
Lots of 'amateurs' use 'pro' equipment in all walks of life. You wouldn't dream of suggesting that someone shouldn't use a 'pro synth' because they don't have a record contract or shouldn't use a 'pro' set of golf clubs because they don't play like Tiger woods, so why the elitist attitude towards the Mac Pro?
You get cheaper sets of Pro golf clubs and cheaper synths too - why not a cheaper i7 based Mac Pro?
Just because someone's view differs from your own, it doesn't make it any less valid, so keep your derogatory 'kids' comments to yourself and grab a mirror to see the one acting like a child.

Someone wanting i7 processors is ignorant as there are Xeons with the same specifications and price as all the desktop i7s. Yet with a Xeon you get additional features, including ECC memory support which on the LGA 2011 platform means four times the memory capacity available. The current Mac Pro is not expensive because it uses Xeons instead of i7s, nor ECC memory instead of non-ECC. There are no advantages in Apple using an i7.

 

[shaunp]

Please, every single time there is a Mac Pro rumor, all the kids come in and flood the thread with singel socket i7 CPU:s comments, seriously, if you dont know what a Mac Pro is and what it is used for, please dont spam every Mac Pro thread...

// Bitch mode off

I disagree. Apple don't make a core i7 tower, that is the point of the i7 comments for me anyway. Perhaps have two machines, a Mac Pro that's Xeon based and a core i7 'Mac'. I fully understand what Xeon is and what type of workloads some people require. I don't need Xeon and I don't need application certification, so I don't want the high starting price associated with workstations. I do need better flexibility than is currently on offer hence the need for a core i7 model. I don't expect it to cost £700, but I don't expect a £3000 starting price either. Does that make sense?

 

[milo]

With current solid state drives, the SATA interface will be the limiting factor in SSD performance, even in striped arrays.

What current SSD can do over 600, and would be limited by SATA III? Multiple SSD obviously can be faster, but a raid can be built with drives on separate SATA busses.

At some point SSD will be faster than III can handle but the next generation of SATA is being worked on now and may be out before the end of this year.

Someone wanting i7 processors is ignorant as there are Xeons with the same specifications and price as all the desktop i7s. Yet with a Xeon you get additional features, including ECC memory support which on the LGA 2011 platform means four times the memory capacity available.

So what advantage is there to i7? If the equivalent xeons are the same price and have advantages but no disadvantages, why would anyone use i7 instead of xeon?

Plus if xeon and related components are no more expensive, that means that not only is the base MP ridiculously overpriced, it's ridiculously overpriced for no real reason.

 

[Umbongo]

I disagree. Apple don't make a core i7 tower, that is the point of the i7 comments for me anyway. Perhaps have two machines, a Mac Pro that's Xeon based and a core i7 'Mac'. I fully understand what Xeon is and what type of workloads some people require. I don't need Xeon and I don't need application certification, so I don't want the high starting price associated with workstations. I do need better flexibility than is currently on offer hence the need for a core i7 model. I don't expect it to cost £700, but I don't expect a £3000 starting price either. Does that make sense?

So an i7 3.7GHz 4-core, GTX 750, 128GB SSD, 8GB RAM, with room for 2 graphics cards for £1,499 would be something you'd be interested in?

----------

So what advantage is there to i7? If the equivalent xeons are the same price and have advantages but no disadvantages, why would anyone use i7 instead of xeon?

Branding. Consumers don't need the Xeon features and ECC so Intel want them to buy i7s. They don't want i7s sold in servers however so they make them the same price. It may make some difference on a $1,000 system with 5% margin, but on a $2,000+ box, especially for Apple who have custom boards anyway, there would be no significant difference. Also keep in mind that the i7s are the top of the line where the Xeons that have similar specifications are the low end of the Xeon line.

 

[mrod]

Next question: assuming that it IS a modular design, will I be able to buy modules and use them with my other computers? Being able to have a few modules at home with CPUs and RAM would be great and then I could unplug the laptop (or even, dare to think, the tablet) and take my important files with me on a computer that handles all but the most intensive of tasks very well.

The old Mac Pro was highly modular. The CPU tray held most of the system and theoretically could be swapped out for an updated version with better CPUs and memory.

The hard disk caddies were very useful for upgrades and setting up RAID arrays.

Unfortunately Apple never chose to sell upgrade CPU trays so this modularity was wasted.

 

[paul4339]

.... come in and flood the thread with singel socket i7 CPU:s comments, seriously, if you dont know what a Mac Pro is and what it is used for,....

// Bitch mode off

...
You may use your Mac Pro in really intensive professional environments, but many Mac Pro owners don't. They just like the flexibility of owning a tower and their point of view on what the next Mac Pro should be like is no less credible than yours.
Lots of 'amateurs' use 'pro' equipment in all walks of life.....

I think the point is a line of equipment/machine made & intended to be used in a professional context can be used in a non-professional context (by prosumer). But not the reverse - In very general terms, it's unsuitable to use prosumer equipment for professional uses.

Basically Apple doesn't want to make a line to the tech-enthusiast that wants to take apart machines. So by hi-jacking a pro line and watering down to be optimized for tech-enthusiasts causes frustration for users that use in a professional context.

The poster is pointing out that these threads often "gets flooded" with posts that propose making a pro-line of equipment work only for prosumers. The "// Bitch mode off" is merely acknowledging that it's a complaint/whine.

.

 

[Topper]

The MP is one of the computers that really just needs the yearly bump as long as there are two processors 4 to 12 DIMM slots and some slots folks will be happy i.e. it needs to be Gates not Jobs

Like me. Just get the components up-to-date and I'm as happy as a pig in manure.

 

[VoR]

I think the point is a line of equipment/machine made intended to be used in a professional context can be used in a non-professional context (by prosumer). But not the reverse - In very general terms, it's unsuitable to prosumer equipment for professional uses.

Professional use is a bit ambiguous, think of the millions of random machines round the world running businesses - You simply buy a suitable machine that does whatever you need, editing camcorder footage is no more 'pro' than someone running an ecommerce empire from excel
My personal opinion is that any (intel...) machine that requires ecc and more than a single socket probably shouldn't be sitting on a desk with a single power supply and a warranty service that involves wrestling a box into a high street shop

 

[deconstruct60]

So what advantage is there to i7? If the equivalent xeons are the same price and have advantages but no disadvantages, why would anyone use i7 instead of xeon?

it is really about selling to a different group of folks. Core i7 49xx folks want "k" models which support overclocking. It is more about control than than steady, long term, reliable ( 24/7 uptime) performance.

Overclockers tend to move on to the next "shiny" object in year or two anyway. It is an entirely different group of folks those who want stuff that just works no problems no matter what the workload is.

Often also Intel will drop VT-d Vt-x on these overclock skewed 'k' products. Anything like VMWare /Parallels/etc will run substantially slower ( if at all if using newest features ).

In simple terms if a tweaker and primarily looking for a machine to "trick out" with a higher than 4 core count then would pick a Core i7 x9xx k model. More likely if primarily interested in just maximal overclocking then would drop down to the mainstream desktop/laptop oriented implementations as they move to new process tech faster than the higher core count stuff does.

Does Apple jump out of bed each morning eager to get deeper penetration into the tweaker market? Frack no. It makes about zero sense from a "I sell easy to use, it just works" tools and systems" perspective.

Plus if xeon and related components are no more expensive, that means that not only is the base MP ridiculously overpriced, it's ridiculously overpriced for no real reason.

There have been larger marginal differences in ECC versus non ECC RAM in the past. Alot of the hype about mainstream desktop versus workstation/server implementations was more true 3-5 years ago. Now not so much.

There is also core infrastructure in the rest of the system that leads to overall systems increase. Always amusing about how the Mac Pro case can't cost more than $100 because this superficially similar one costs $100.
The core infrastructure for the top end Mac Pro is the same exact one used for the entry level one. If go to HP/Dell/Lenovo their chopped down Core i7 has chopped down components to. That often promotes the Apple's to Oranges comparisons.


However, it is "overpriced" beyond that for a reason. Continuity with the upper end and with the iMac boundary. I suspect someone was also using the juiced profit margins to put up a misdirection argument about why the unit volume numbers didn't meet growth targets ( growth sucks but look at this money. Which doesn't really mean jack squat when money is flowing into the company stockpile like a flash flood from elsewhere. )

 

[deconstruct60]

I think the point is a line of equipment/machine made & intended to be used in a professional context can be used in a non-professional context (by prosumer). But not the reverse - In very general terms, it's unsuitable to use prosumer equipment for professional uses.

If it works and fills the requirements then it is suitable. Marketing labels are just that. Likewise demands that it has to be some super duper swiss army knife of infinite configuration is hype too. There are few if any situations that actually demand that. It is generally a "nice to have" , not a fundamental requirement.

You can't be a pro photographer unless the price of your camera is "this high" is not really about being a pro or not. Neither is can't be pro if your camera doesn't work at the South Pole in the middle of winter after being outside for 2 hours. Same thing in computer space (e.g, if it doesn't have a redundant power supply can't be pro ). Business requirements and skills are far more relevant metrics than price tag (being a large barrier to entry) and exclusiveness.

 

[brunerd]

Pizza Box

Come on 22 pages of discussion and "pizza box" doesn't come up once?!

I don't think they'll do a cube shape. I think they'll go a little further back for inspiration and do something like the LC series of Macs.

 

[scottsjack]

So in other words, you're literally complaining about your preconceived ideas and assumptions on the new Mac Pro.

Instead of writing long paragraphs about how apple has ruined your life by making the Mac Pro less upgradable, why don't you wait 4 days and see if they actually make the Mac Pro less upgradable?

If they indeed do make it less upgradable than it currently is, you can cry and complain about how Apple is doomed for as long as you like.

Exactly. The amount of whining, moaning and groaning, sprinkled with charts and data outlining Intel's Xeon release schedule is just overwhelming. Whether here or on the MacRumors Mac Pro Forum people seem to really enjoy talking about a subject about which almost zero real information is available.

I'm a Mac Pro fan and user but I'll be glad when next week gets here regardless of whether to big, pro box is discontinued or not. If there is a new model that's great, if not let's get over it and move on.

 

[macnisse]

Might finally consider upgrading to a pro machine if it really is different in a positive way!

 

[jwdsail]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

 

[WhiteIphone5]

A nice surprise would be a reasonable price for a new Mac Pro.

This is everyone at Apple who read your comment.

 

[Lone Deranger]

Don't tease me like that! (Unless you know something then spill the beans!)

Definitely not teasing.

 

[littlenemo]

Hello, just a quick question, for what professional application would someone need more than 2 video cards ?
Let me explain, if the new macpro only has 2 pcie slots for the GPUs, I think it would be enough.
Personnaly I do mostly audio work, but sometimes also video and photography. I don't really see the absolute need for pcie slots in my case. A few audio manufacturers already offer TB interfaces and I'm sure a lot more are on the way. Avid has already released a TB native audio interface, and I heard they're working on a TB hdx interface. And for video, new cameras are also relying on TB. If the new macpro has TB 2.0, it will be capable to stream 4k video data if I'm not mistaken, so why the need for pcie expandability ?
And for storage, I think TB is also just fine. If you need a LOT of drive storage, even 4 or 6 internal drive bays still won't be enough. Most if not all of the professionals I know that are using mac pros, have a lot of external drives through firewire or fibrechannel in addition of their internal drives.

I think a smaller mac pro with fast CPUs, enough RAM slots to fit the same expandability as the old one, 2 GPU-dedicated pcie slots with a config of 1 or 2 video cards, one or maybe two SSD/fusion drive internal bays, and at least 4 TB 2.0 ports would work for me and probably for a lot of pros. And it would probably fit in a 1U rack enclosure or a very small tower (maybe a cube) about twice the height of a mac mini. Besides RAM expandability and the possibility to update the video card, I'm not sure that more internal flexibility is absolutely necessary.

 

[paul4339]

If it works and fills the requirements then it is suitable.
...
Business requirements and skills are far more relevant metrics than price tag (being a large barrier to entry) and exclusiveness.

Agreed... that's what I mean by 'professional context' --- how it's used, not just who uses it. In the professional context the results of reliability & support etc has much more significant weight than using it in a non professional context. This is usually because there's a significant financial consequence if something went wrong (due to using consumer parts). Likewise for support, etc... Large companies do not like a whole mess of different kinds of machines to support. They often approve of a few lines of machines and contractually make sure that they are supported by the vendor. (eg. You can get IBM server parts from 1999 and have them delivered to you in 48 hours). IBM makes sure that they still have them in stock.

So when Apple (or any other company) makes a line of professional grade workstations, it's designed to suit these enterprise (or 'higher') requirements. The shops that don't have such special requirements will still have to pay for the engineering of the machines (and the more expensive parts). Unlike Dell, Apple basically makes one line of MacPro, so they have to satisfy the 'higher end' customers demands (the 'lower end', for lack of better words, can still use it). ... I'm speaking in very general terms, since there's many different situations.

For Apple to make a tower with consumer parts, is almost like making another line of tower machines geared towards a prosumer market; OR changing the existing pro line is similar to hi-jacking this line and making it work for the prosumer market and not optimized for use in the professional context.

 

[monkeybagel]

I don't think it will have an optical drive, nor do I think it will house spinning hard drives (unfortunately)

I have something like 8TB inside my MP, and close to 30TB spread out over different units on my desk + a NAS 12TB in the basement.

It's cable he'll, and it doesn't sound like the new MP will help me improve my mess ;-)

Apple made some really good moves in 2006. A smooth transition to Intel processors, which was good for their power consumption and performance. Then they invented the best trackpad in the industry. Then they released the best smartphone in the industry. Then the tablet.

Now what are they doing? If they are doing what all of these "rumors" are suggesting, they are going to lose it again. There is absolutely no reason to omit an optical drive on a dual processor workstation. Nor FW800.

I bought a Mac Pro because it is really the only machine left in Apple's lineup that is a nice true workstation. If it's days are numbered, I guess I will just be using their phones.

I must say the Mac Pro is my favorite computer of all that I have owned since 1985. I love it. I just hope they don't screw it up.

 

[monkeybagel]

Well, there won't be a disc drive so that's a no-brainer.

Apple has my money if...

- MacPro is smaller and lighter.
- More energy efficient. My current MacPro puts off too much CO2.
- No disc drives.
- More USB ports.
- Designed for SSDs
- Did I say lighter?

Don't they already have a product for you called a MacBook Pro with Retina Display and a Thunderbolt Display? No hard disk. No optical drive. No Ethernet and all of that other wasteful stuff [/sarcasm]

 

[clank72]

I fear that Apple will create not an easily expandable and upgradeable professional machine, but will rather follow its odd new vision of proprietary machines where you cant even upgrade the ram!

For me its been a painful realization that Apple dont give a F about their professional users anymore, those users being the basis of their revival back in the mid '90s with apple domination in desktop publishing.

The iphone generation is a blip on the radar screen. Those folks will jump ship when the next fad rolls around and although its an easier device to make and they sell alot of them, there are people like myself who have built careers around Apple hardware and OS. Faithful, longtime, professional users are being thrown under the bus!!!

Shame on you Apple for forgetting your roots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"

Well, it's all about where the money is. I think there are a lot of "Pro" users out there but not enough to meet demands and possibly not worth large production runs which Apple is focusing on. Comparing to the general market the Pro users are probably less then 5%.

There's just not a whole lot of power needed anymore to run pro apps. Photoshop, Music Software and Adobe Premiere run fine on a 27inch. People are doing live concerts now with MacBook Pro's and I know people editing films and doing AfterEffects with a 27" iMac.

However, I understand about wanting more juice to handle multiple threads, video and 300 audio tracks. It sucks, yes, but people in this group are starting to become more specialized.

 

[AidenShaw]

modular, but only slightly

It would be interesting to have a smaller Apple Pro - shave off those painfully sharp handles (so that it fits in a rack), move to 2.5" disks (solid state and/or spinning). Go for a thinner form factor - 2U - and offer a set of rackmount brackets as an option. For desk use - offer tower and pizza box stands.

The modular part wouldn't be a "lego Apple" with lots of different modules.

Offer 1 module - a matching 1U disk expansion cabinet with 2.5" or 3.5" slots and a T-Bolt connection to an on-board hardware RAID controller. Front panel disks in hot-plug slots, internal disks have simple connections, but do require powering off to add/replace.

Or, at the risk of confusing the fans with too many choices - also offer a 2U disk cabinet for lots of storage.

Of course, the disk cabinets would elegantly attach to the CPU/GPU cabinet for a seamless form. There should also be tower/pizza box stands to hold the mated CPU/disk.

 

[Mago]

Workflow is one thing; end product is another. Many clients still want DVDs for whatever reason; and actually BluRay authoring is something that still "has" to be done.

I don't care if we have to get an external drive to get the job done; but you are clearly yapping and yelling about stuff you don't really know about, so calm down.

-mark

Congrats, you are one of those 1%...

How often your office do burn CDs every week? (or month)?

Is Burning CDs a common practice when you doing your work? or only an optional Data Delivery operation (and actually optional for some customers)...

So you really dont use a DVD until your work is done (so your workflow dont includes cd/dvd), not as 10yr ago when very common to swap CDs 10+ times every day, rigth now CD/DVDs still popular for data delivery (specially by mail given that most couriers consider CD/DVD as std mail not merchandise,not same for Pendrives considered merchandise).

Most Content producers dont use the workstations (and spend its premium staff time on that) for data delivery operation (burn cd, create presentations) rather another station as an iMac is dedicated to such task, operated by secondary staff, internal data workflow use to be done thru the LAN and sometimes using Pendrives or External removable haard drives.