Apple Plans to Ditch Intel and Use Custom Mac Chips Starting in 2020

[techwhiz]

When we designed Opteron with a MUCH smaller team than Apple already has (there were maybe 20 key folks dedicated to it). Apple has already hired a large chunk of the folks who worked on those chips on AMD, folks who worked on DEC's Alphas, and folks who worked on the Exponential PowerPC. Plus many other people. They have more than enough talented people to get it done.

Not and continue with the A line of processors.
The new CPU core can be replicated.
They will need a cache coherent fabric to stick it together. ARM's interconnect won't cut it is just not going to cut it.
They are going to need to go to some switched network on chip architecture.
The people doing the snoop filters and the caches are going to be real busy.
They also will need last level cache and an interconnect from the peripherals to get everything talking.

Like I said, I don't doubt they can do it.
I don't think the have enough of the right people to do it and continue on the current path with the A series.

We shall see in 2020.

 

[cmaier]

Not and continue with the A line of processors.
The new CPU core can be replicated.
They will need a cache coherent fabric to stick it together. ARM's interconnect won't cut it is just not going to cut it.
They are going to need to go to some switched network on chip architecture.
The people doing the snoop filters and the caches are going to be real busy.
They also will need last level cache and an interconnect from the peripherals to get everything talking.

Like I said, I don't doubt they can do it.
I don't think the have enough of the right people to do it and continue on the current path with the A series.

We shall see in 2020.

They have several hundred CPU designers. They'll be fine.

 

[DNichter]

The difference is you need to find an app for almost every task. It's a song and a dance just to do what's so easily done with a desktop OS.

>> Oh, you want to do this simple little task? Well first you need to have an Apple account and download/buy these 12 apps!

Not at all

 

[techwhiz]

there are places with talent outside of Austin and the valley. Cheaper too. However, one thing that seemed to sorely missing from the Bloomberg article is that other devices that Apple is trying to push ARM into also how much dilution they will get from their team chasing those too.

One of the critical things they'll have to do is get volume. Being able to use one CPU design you whole Apple Watch line up scales much better than a Mac line that needs 2-3 different dies designs at substantially lower volumes.


The PowerPC lost. ( yes there is some elements left in the modern Power ). 5 million won't cut it. That is a looser volume up against what Intel+AMD are doing in terms of revenue generating to keep supporting pushes to more and more expensive process tech.

Fabs cost 10's of Billion these days.

You are right, there are other places than the Valley and Austin.
But there aren't many other places where you can get the amount of silicon talent you would need.
You aren't doing this in India or China. You aren't because you don't want your IP stolen.
You don't because you want to control locally. Apple's SEG (Silicon Engineering Group) has it's largest footprint in Silicon Valley and Austin, Texas.

Fabs do cost billions and at least a year or two to get to a bleeding edge process node.

Like I said.
Apple has the cash.
They can hire the people.
The ROI needs to make sense.
I'm sure Apple has lots of people counting beans and if it makes sense in terms of control and share holder equity they will do what they need to do.

I have a vested interest in Apple doing well. I've owned Apple stock for more than a decade.

I just don't think the people at Bloomberg know jack about silicon.

 

[Hps1]

Not at all

As you missed my last request: what tasks are you talking about?

If you have no knowledge of application beyond iOS it is best to go do some research and come back with a more substantial response.

 

[aaronage]

It's likely Apple has been working on this for years (the rumour has been around for years, floated by reliable individuals in the industry). The work doesn't start now, it's been underway for some time.

Apple have top talent already (the custom mobile CPU, GPU etc. didn't just materialise out of thin air, and they've a good track record of success now).

Apple have the funds and intent (they've already invested heavily in custom CPU, GPU etc.).

It's a little early to start panicking and planning an exit from the Mac platform. I'm not saying "look at A10X/A11 Geekbench scores, wow so fast" I mean, actually spend some time reading analysis of Apple's current architecture, look at the evolution and growing ambition of Apple's custom SoC design over the years, look at who they've hired and acquired etc.

I totally understand the pessimism and where that comes from - and sure, nothing is ever certain - but the outlook is positive in my view

 

[uwdude]

I think Apple needs to be very careful here, or this could end up being Apple's "jump the shark" moment. Especially if Windows doesn't also switch to arm, or has very little arm64 support, this could end up limiting Mac sales. People still have to be able to do a few work things at home, and all of that stuff needs good windows support.

 

[EdT]

Yes, because the A series as of today runs in the thermal constraint of an iPad and an iPhone.. and sips battery and still benchmarks crazy numbers.
ARM definitely has an advantage performance wise over x86 it's a far simpler and smaller instruction set. x86 has decades of legacy support too.

Decades of legacy support can mean older but still useful, or even irreplaceable, software will run on a system when the original software company either doesn’t exist, has been bought out, or doesn’t make the product any more. Usually that means old and potentially security problematic software, but lots of people and businesses are happy with product ‘X’ and don’t see a need to upgrade to something different.

 

[firewood]

That smartphone processor **is** Apple's idea of desktop power.

Nope. Apple has plenty of engineers who previously designed high-performance workstation processors (and even a few who've worked on TOP500 supercomputers). One way you can tell is by the fact that their A10 and A11 micro-architectures already have some features (issue width, etc.) usually found on high-end server processors. A chip spin for a much higher thermal envelope will require a modified circuit design and a re-layout, but there are engineers there who have done that before.

And not only does the ARMv8.x architecture have more headroom and less baggage the x86-64 ISA, but Apple is rumored to have a full ARM architecture license that allows them to customize to their arm64.x ISA for even more performance.

 

[Altis]

Not at all

It might be slowly getting slightly better, but no -- even some very simple tasks require a legwork and workarounds.

And really, for what?

 

[JoEw]

Decades of legacy support can mean older but still useful, or even irreplaceable, software will run on a system when the original software company either doesn’t exist, has been bought out, or doesn’t make the product any more. Usually that means old and potentially security problematic software, but lots of people and businesses are happy with product ‘X’ and don’t see a need to upgrade to something different.

Great, but legacy support has never been Apples market..

 

[DevNull0]

My general understanding of programming is fairly basic, but my thoughts would be for programs to be easily ported that they wouldn't be very efficient because the high level code would have a heap of junk underneath it to translate it for a new architecture, meaning that it wouldn't be overly optimised.

That's exactly right. At a low level, programming requires a lot of detailed knowledge of the architecture which gets obsolete very quickly. Getting something done generally involves moving data into specific registers or memory locations depending on the CPU and then giving an instruction to do what needs to be done on that data. Even for something as simple as in a string of bits, is the most or least significant bit first. Is 1101 in binary 13 or 11? That depends which CPU you're using.

Most of this is hidden from the developers but hiding it involves a performance penalty so it's not hard to tweak it for a different system. Complex apps that need to run more efficiently need to more directly interface with the hardware, and that means when you change the hardware a lot more needs to be rewritten.

 

[LordVic]

The vendors would have us upload all data to the cloud and rent processor cycles to do the crunching...this is a nonstarter.

Computing as a service is being set back by the Facebooks and Cambridge Analyticas of the world.

I've goten this from some vendors too.

we literally cannot due to regulatory bodies host anything in the cloud. it must be contained in a data centre, in Canada, under security observation 24/7.

the data that passes through our networks must be full encrypted. all data that goes out, must pass through a bevy of HSM units.

the idea of just dumbing everything down to slow and letting online resources deal with the power is not an option for heavily regulated industries such as Financial institutions.

there's a plethora of details in this thread (54 pages now) of real world examples from a few hundred people who are outlining the road blocks this move would be for actual work case scenarios.

and the same 5-10 people trying to argue using sound bites of "great for the future" and the like without understanding, or caring to understand WHY some of us Apple users are saying "pump the breaks"

 

[DNichter]

As you missed my last request: what tasks are you talking about?

If you have no knowledge of application beyond iOS it is best to go do some research and come back with a more substantial response.

Scan documents, then annotate and share with team members. I found doing this much simpler and straightforward on my iPad. I’ll watch video while composing emails or reviewing reports. Picture in picture on the iPad works really well. Pick up a presentation and review it with a team member while in a meeting. Collaboration with others is probably my favorite work related task as the interaction via tablet seems to be much more personal. Sitting at their desk and quickly reviewing a report feels more effective than reviewing separately. Using an iPad all over my office has been great for our business. I know I could probably do this all on a laptop, but it’s a different experience on a tablet, much quicker and simpler, and adds more positive interactions with team members. Hope this helps.

Plenty of knowledge of macOS. It just grew stagnant. iPad is better for me.

 

[shareef777]

I wish they’d make that announcement. I’d immediately short their stock and become rich!

 

[dirt_farmer]

I've goten this from some vendors too.

we literally cannot due to regulatory bodies host anything in the cloud. it must be contained in a data centre, in Canada, under security observation 24/7.

the data that passes through our networks must be full encrypted. all data that goes out, must pass through a bevy of HSM units.

the idea of just dumbing everything down to slow and letting online resources deal with the power is not an option for heavily regulated industries such as Financial institutions.

there's a plethora of details in this thread (54 pages now) of real world examples from a few hundred people who are outlining the road blocks this move would be for actual work case scenarios.

and the same 5-10 people trying to argue using sound bites of "great for the future" and the like without understanding, or caring to understand WHY some of us Apple users are saying "pump the breaks"

Yeah. I'm Canadian too and work in a related industry. Upload to US cloud = thanks for your interest and good luck with your sales pitch

Apple is of course famous for laughing off the needs of enterprise, and the rare Mac that makes it into enterprise does it under the radar via hacks, compromise, and suffering.

That's what boggles my mind here. They are just closing the door on the remaining few fanatics they had who wanted to put in the compromise and suffering needed to make it work.

They will be fine email and web surfing machines forever but it's 2018. Everything from your phone to your TV to your refrigerator can check your email and surf the web.

 

[gavroche]

Well, so it's beginning. I wonder how many people will choose to move on from Apple due to lack of X86 support. I for one will not be buying a Mac that I cannot run windows on

I sincerely hope that Apple does not make major decisions worrying about what a very small portion of the Mac owning population would do. They should focus on what is best for the 95+% of Mac users. Progress isn't always easy. It requires difficult decisions. Progress is change. Young people today view computers in a far different manner than us older people. I think Apple realizes that the goal post isn't something easily viewed today. It's far down the road. Innovation is all about trying to get us down that road.

Anyone that is that worked up about running windows can simply go to any store where they can buy one of a plethora of PCs that cost a mere couple hundred dollars. Frankly, it's kind of selfish to expect the overwhelming majority of Mac users to have to compromise to their needs. Any such person is not an Apple fan.

 

[briloronmacrumo]

I also remember when Apple took it away and my software stopped working, some of which had no Intel replacements.

Reminder: Apple didn't own the rights to Rosetta, so when IBM became its owner, it forced Apple's hand. Same unfortunate result for end users but the blame isn't all Apple's.

 

[DevNull0]

I mean no offence, but I think you have a very narrow mind when it comes to what a computer is. It might seem a simple task today, but think about all the technology behind browsing the web and streaming a video.

I firmly believe these devices are computers. Not as powerful as desktops, sure, but still general purpose computers.

P.S. Technically speaking, even a calculator is a computer. Heck, even the remote control of my TV is.

The of the amount of technology needed in the 1940's to be able to remotely view a video signal was amazing. But a TV was not a computer; a modern TV that is entirely computer based is still a TV. It's not a computer. It's not the tech inside that matters but what you do with it.

A web browser/video watching appliance is not a computer. If you're saying it's tech inside and not what you do with it, is my electric toothbrush a computer? It even has inductive wireless charging. What about my coffee maker that even has a computer-based programmable timer?

 

[kwikdeth]

honestly if this rumor is even remotely true, i wouldnt even consider buying an Intel Mac at this point. those who were around for the Intel transition will remember how quickly and completely all PPC support was completely dropped. PPC only got one major OS update after the switch was announced, after that it was tough luck, buy new stuff. Folks would be wise to consider plunking down $5K for an imac pro at this point. just ask the people who bought the Quad-core G5s.

 

[ipponrg]

The of the amount of technology needed in the 1940's to be able to remotely view a video signal was amazing. But a TV was not a computer; a modern TV that is entirely computer based is still a TV. It's not a computer. It's not the tech inside that matters but what you do with it.

A web browser/video watching appliance is not a computer. If you're saying it's tech inside and not what you do with it, is my electric toothbrush a computer? It even has inductive wireless charging. What about my coffee maker that even has a computer-based programmable timer?

I agree.

I think people are really stretching on what a computer is.

It's true that digital watches, TVs, coffeemakers, etc have a computer. A computer by definition is just a device that stores and processes data in binary form.

I suppose if we want to get into proper terms, we're really talking about a personal computer, which is a laptop or desktop. The iPad I would not really count as a PC because you cannot do ALL the work from a PC on an iPad.

 

[Karnicopia]

So I don't know if this makes sense but I guess I'll throw it out there because I haven't seen this. It sounds like part of the problem with x86_64 is how much legacy support they have to keep around (someone said it was around 20% of the die is dedicated to this). The next update to the OS is supposed to kill a ton of legacy support of 32 bit apps. What if the whole point of this is to remove that 20% of legacy support that Intel has to include and create custom x86_64 chips through AMD who is already creating custom chips for people and has the needed patents. Then they could probably include integrated AMD GPU's as well and it wouldn't take them away from the existing architecture. Like they get the gain in performance by being able to fit more on the die by removing legacy support they don't need, they get control of release schedule because AMD would probably do whatever the hell they want to get the contract and can tailor the CPU to exactly what they need to support and can cut out the legacy stuff they don't need to maximize performance. So maybe the move is away from Intel and maybe they would design their own chips but they could do it with AMD and stay on the x86_64 architecture.

 

[ActionableMango]

I sincerely hope that Apple does not make major decisions worrying about what a very small portion of the Mac owning population would do.

I doubt Apple goes through all the trouble of making Boot Camp utilities and drivers if hardly anyone used it.

I did a poll in the Mac Mini forum and 46% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

I did the same poll in the Mac Pro forum and 75% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

 

[DevNull0]

The value for me? I hope Apple can bring some of the benefits I see of using an iPad to the Mac. Performance, stability, security, privacy, apps/app choices, battery life, flexibility, core technologies, etc.

Intel based macs have better performance. Stability, privacy has nothing to do with the CPU. Core tech is too vague a term.

Flexibility and App choices. Wow. I mean wow.

Find me an iPad app that will allow me to program my arduinos. An iPad app that will let me design parametric 3D components and then print them on my 3D printer. An iPad app that will allow me to communicate with my Particle Photon IoT controllers. An iPad app that will allow me to design printed circuit boards and generate gerber files to have them fabricated. Those are all things I do at least weekly with my mac. There are hundreds of pieces of software from github I use regularly that I couldn't use on an iPad. And electronics just one niche I use my mac for.

Apple's vision of their "what's a computer" is the exact opposite of flexibility and app choice.

 

[gavroche]

I agree.

I think people are really stretching on what a computer is.

It's true that digital watches, TVs, coffeemakers, etc have a computer. A computer by definition is just a device that stores and processes data in binary form.

I suppose if we want to get into proper terms, we're really talking about a personal computer, which is a laptop or desktop. The iPad I would not really count as a PC because you cannot do ALL the work from a PC on an iPad.

You guys seem very restricted in your thinking. Several decades ago, guys would make the same argument in regards to our "personal computers." They would argue that if it wasn't a huge mainframe that occupied an entire room, it wasn't a computer. They days of everyone ownlng a "computer" as you want to restrict it are diminishing. People use computers in so much as they perform tasks they need performed. In the past I would have needed a "computer" to run apps and do things. But guess what... even my new Samsung TV can do most things. It has memory, storage, input, output, processing capability (all elements of a computer BTW). It comes with apps pretty installed, can download and install others, can connect a keyboard... etc. etc. Many people nowadays don't own a "computer." they check email, browse the web, watch videos, do shopping, all on cell phones and tablets. Do you really want to argue that none of those things involve using a "computer".
[doublepost=1522884929][/doublepost]

Intel based macs have better performance. Stability, privacy has nothing to do with the CPU. Core tech is too vague a term.

Flexibility and App choices. Wow. I mean wow.

Find me an iPad app that will allow me to program my arduinos. An iPad app that will let me design parametric 3D components and then print them on my 3D printer. An iPad app that will allow me to communicate with my Particle Photon IoT controllers. An iPad app that will allow me to design printed circuit boards and generate gerber files to have them fabricated. Those are all things I do at least weekly with my mac. There are hundreds of pieces of software from github I use regularly that I couldn't use on an iPad. And electronics just one niche I use my mac for.

Apple's vision of their "what's a computer" is the exact opposite of flexibility and app choice.

There are some tasks that you also can't do on an Intel based Mac. And since you are arguing that only the most fully capable computer/device/thing... whatever you want to call it... is the logical and appropriate thing... why are you on a Mac.
Realize that like anything in life, it's all about compromise. Buy what meets your needs.
[doublepost=1522885016][/doublepost]

I doubt Apple goes through all the trouble of making Boot Camp utilities and drivers if hardly anyone used it.

I did a poll in the Mac Mini forum and 46% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

I did the same poll in the Mac Pro forum and 75% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

[doublepost=1522885142][/doublepost]

I doubt Apple goes through all the trouble of making Boot Camp utilities and drivers if hardly anyone used it.

I did a poll in the Mac Mini forum and 46% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

I did the same poll in the Mac Pro forum and 75% of respondents had an operating system other than OS X on their computer.

Do you really believe that people that hang out in Macrumors represent the average Mac owner? Do you even believe 10% of Mac owners have ever visited this site!