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This mornings WSJ discusses J&J plans for a vaccine.

Full scale production by the end of 2021 assuming this untested candidate turns out to be effective.

As with all of the information being discussed, it's important to keep context around announcements like that. This is a vaccine candidate. They haven't even begun human testing, and hope to by September 2020. If the candidate is effective, they hope to begin production a year from now with full production on line by the end of 2021.

This is in line with other vaccines undergoing trials. Moderna has one in human trials that, if successful, they don't expect to be available for 18 months.

The word that people seem to keep omitting is "eventually". If there's incentive to stop this it may be stopped eventually. That said, there are other diseases we appear incentivized to stop and we aren't doing a great job of it. How many years have we been looking for an HIV vaccine? I also expect, but don't know for sure, that we'll find a solution eventually.

Hopefully by 2022 I'll be able to get a Covid-19 shot in my right arm at the same time I get a flu shot in my left.

Now, back from the future:

I’m not sure. I’m talking about perspective for the speculators and projectors that are multiplying 350M Americans times 70% infected times 2% to get a number of dead people. People are doing this on TV. It’s destructive and stupid.

Bad analogies don't give perspective to bad math. If the numbers people are using aren't based on supportable scientific models (and there are many, many experts in this field working to build supportable models) then those numbers are meaningless at best. Likewise, if numbers are based on a completely different disease, those numbers are meaningless at best.

A bad analogy is also destructive (because it gives people the incorrect impression that something new is actually familiar) and stupid (because the science simply doesn't transfer over).

The models that are used aren't simple chained multiplies, by the way. The infection rate and mortality rates are themselves based on models of varying sophistication. As one example of how the human interactions figure in, look here:

And, critically, mortality models account for health care capacity which is why there's not a simple sliding scale between a controlled outbreak and an uncontrolled outbreak-- there's essentially two different scenarios: within our capacity, and beyond our capacity and the anticipated outcomes for those two scenarios are strikingly different.
If the flu kills 61,000 Americans and at the end of this, we lose say 60,000 Americans to COVID 19, what would be your conclusion? Our social distancing worked very well? The flu was worse? They were the same?
If, when the dust settles, the only information I have is that the 61,000 Americans died of Covid-19, I can't draw much of a conclusion at all. To really understand the danger of the disease and the impact our countermeasures had, we'll need to evaluate the models we've been using, see how well they matched the actual spread and health impacts of the disease with and without various social control mechanisms and from that data determine whether we did enough, too much, or too little. Over time we'll get better comparative data across regions, demographics, and policy approaches.

That information will come after the fact. For now, we work from the best available data and I have yet to hear a respected expert say we should model our response on the 2018 flu.

I’m not nearly as scared as most people for 2 reasons:

1) Cases are very likely into the millions in America, agree?
2) While some are dying, the mortality rate is likely far lower due to these undiagnosed cases.

This strongly shows to me this is could be more like the bad flu year where 61,000 Americans died than the current fear level indicates.
You've made two baseless assertions entirely in your own head and then present them as evidence for a conclusion that has more free variables than the two you just laid out.

This doesn’t mean the viruses are the same. We aren’t treating them the same, but the destruction would be similar in terms of lives lost, which is the whole point here.

I told you, I support the social distancing and would support it even more strongly. I only resent the half hearted approach because we are ruining the economy while not even controlling the virus effectively. Way too much flying, traveling, and running around to be effective. I would shut down NY completely.
I mean, the destruction is way worse because of all the attention it’s gotten, but if the end story is fewer deaths than the flu of 2017-2018, I wouldn’t be surprised.

But others will just say it’s because we socially distanced effectively.

Some of the blowback you're getting may be because most of the "it's just like the flu" arguments are intended to downplay the current risks-- so if you're confused why people don't understand that you want harsher controls even though you think it's just another flu, you might want to flesh out your argument a bit more so people see the nuance you're trying to provide.

It also sounds a bit like you consider 61,000 an "acceptable loss", which some people may take offense to.

My confusion though is that you seem to be saying that the social distancing guidelines aren't helpful (if the death toll is flu level then others will say it was because distancing worked), or even important (because only a flu-load of people would probably die), but we should make them stronger and more invasive.

I talk about the flu only so people have perspective that we haven’t nearly approached that destruction, despite everything that’s been said and projected. The projections are simply absurd.

So all I ask is people don’t get on TV and online to speculate and project the future. It‘s not helpful and it’s logically stupid.

Saying this is going to be like the 2018 flu is speculating and projecting the future but doing so in a way that no infectious disease expert thinks is supportable. To me, that's far more logically stupid than working from models based on the current disease.

Even when we talk about the flu each year, we don't assume it will be the same as the previous year-- we model its unique behavior each year as it moves from country to country. So comparing two completely different viruses is completely baseless.
 
Full scale production by the end of 2021 assuming this untested candidate turns out to be effective.

As with all of the information being discussed, it's important to keep context around announcements like that. This is a vaccine candidate. They haven't even begun human testing, and hope to by September 2020. If the candidate is effective, they hope to begin production a year from now with full production on line by the end of 2021.

This is in line with other vaccines undergoing trials. Moderna has one in human trials that, if successful, they don't expect to be available for 18 months.

The word that people seem to keep omitting is "eventually". If there's incentive to stop this it may be stopped eventually. That said, there are other diseases we appear incentivized to stop and we aren't doing a great job of it. How many years have we been looking for an HIV vaccine? I also expect, but don't know for sure, that we'll find a solution eventually.

Hopefully by 2022 I'll be able to get a Covid-19 shot in my right arm at the same time I get a flu shot in my left.

Now, back from the future:



Bad analogies don't give perspective to bad math. If the numbers people are using aren't based on supportable scientific models (and there are many, many experts in this field working to build supportable models) then those numbers are meaningless at best. Likewise, if numbers are based on a completely different disease, those numbers are meaningless at best.

A bad analogy is also destructive (because it gives people the incorrect impression that something new is actually familiar) and stupid (because the science simply doesn't transfer over).

The models that are used aren't simple chained multiplies, by the way. The infection rate and mortality rates are themselves based on models of varying sophistication. As one example of how the human interactions figure in, look here:

And, critically, mortality models account for health care capacity which is why there's not a simple sliding scale between a controlled outbreak and an uncontrolled outbreak-- there's essentially two different scenarios: within our capacity, and beyond our capacity and the anticipated outcomes for those two scenarios are strikingly different.

If, when the dust settles, the only information I have is that the 61,000 Americans died of Covid-19, I can't draw much of a conclusion at all. To really understand the danger of the disease and the impact our countermeasures had, we'll need to evaluate the models we've been using, see how well they matched the actual spread and health impacts of the disease with and without various social control mechanisms and from that data determine whether we did enough, too much, or too little. Over time we'll get better comparative data across regions, demographics, and policy approaches.

That information will come after the fact. For now, we work from the best available data and I have yet to hear a respected expert say we should model our response on the 2018 flu.


You've made two baseless assertions entirely in your own head and then present them as evidence for a conclusion that has more free variables than the two you just laid out.




Some of the blowback you're getting may be because most of the "it's just like the flu" arguments are intended to downplay the current risks-- so if you're confused why people don't understand that you want harsher controls even though you think it's just another flu, you might want to flesh out your argument a bit more so people see the nuance you're trying to provide.

It also sounds a bit like you consider 61,000 an "acceptable loss", which some people may take offense to.

My confusion though is that you seem to be saying that the social distancing guidelines aren't helpful (if the death toll is flu level then others will say it was because distancing worked), or even important (because only a flu-load of people would probably die), but we should make them stronger and more invasive.



Saying this is going to be like the 2018 flu is speculating and projecting the future but doing so in a way that no infectious disease expert thinks is supportable. To me, that's far more logically stupid than working from models based on the current disease.

Even when we talk about the flu each year, we don't assume it will be the same as the previous year-- we model its unique behavior each year as it moves from country to country. So comparing two completely different viruses is completely baseless.
We can agree to disagree. Sometimes, you have to accept less than ideal
scenarios and it’s still a win. The flu is incredibly bad and Is largely ignored, which is the main point.

I think the nuance is that people need to cool down on projections and with the correct measures, this will be less deadly than the flu. I think with better culture, this would have been far less deadly than the flu.

Again, I am optimistic treatment can development work. This doctor has treated 699 patients (even those with breathing issues) with 100% success.

 
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We can agree to disagree. Sometimes, you have to accept less than ideal
scenarios and it’s still a win. The flu is incredibly bad and Is largely ignored, which is the main point.

I think we can agree to agree on this. Flu is bad. Get your flu shot and take proper precautions during flu season, especially if you or someone you interact with is part of a vulnerable population.

It's just strange to keep talking about the flu in a covid-19 discussion during a massive covid-19 crisis while insisting that you only want to make people aware of the flu. Personally I think the Rolling Stones should have stopped recording decades ago, but I don't keep threading that into this discussion.

I wouldn't be surprised if infection numbers exceed the sales figures for A Bigger Bang and Blue & Lonesome.

I think the nuance is that people need to cool down on projections and with the correct measures, this will be less deadly than the flu. I think with better culture, this would have been far less deadly than the flu.

We can agree to agree on the idea that correct measures and better culture will help keep this virus in check. Aside from being hopeful I'm not willing to sign up to the idea that we'll keep the impact below that of the flu, and I would certainly disagree if you'd say it would be less than the flu without any policy action.

Again, I am optimistic treatment can development work. This doctor has treated 699 patients (even those with breathing issues) with 100% success.


"An exclusive interview by Rudy Giuliani" ?!!! I'm supposed to believe that the President's personal attorney took the time to interview some guy for a no-name website? YouTube pulled the video for a policy violation. Sorry, but I don't see a reason to put any credibility in that report at all.

This is a source you're willing to link to, but you don't trust the expert opinions of epidemiologists?

Now I need to go run Malwarebytes to see what I picked up by clicking that link...
 
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In our prior exchange I laid out the math for how a single person ultimately infects 59,000 people. It’s actually a higher number but let’s play it safe.

You yourself have mocked that the death rate as a measly 1%. So you’re ok with ending the lives of over 500 people.

Here’s something else you said today:

“Good. They'll see I don't care about their stupid "stay at home" BS.”

At the end of the day people with your apparent activities should be charged and imprisoned on manslaughter charges. Regardless of how little you care. Or maybe because of it. It’s sociopathic.
You're funny.
 
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