Apple posts Java update for Panther, improving functionality...

[WM.]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I'm not sure if I quite explained my predicament correctly before. Let me do it one more time and see if anyone can help me out (bear in mind, this is my first mac, so I'm new to Apple hardware):

I updated 10.2 to 10.3 and installed the 10-28 security update. I then installed 10.3.1 and Java 1.4.1. When I run terminal, I get this reading...

java version "1.3.1"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.3.1-root_1.3.1_030602-20:14)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.3.1_03-69, mixed mode)

This isn't in the Apple tech notes, so I'm not sure what to do. My software update says that Java 1.4.1 was successfully installed, but Terminal doesn't seem to be reading it. I am also unable to use any Java programs or visit Java sites. Am I still able to follow the Apple Tech Notes in my situation? Or should I just wait for Apple to put out an end-user solution? Like I said, I'm new to Apple hardware, and I'm afraid I'm going to mess up my system if I mess around too much. Thanks.

I don't think much of the discussion has been in response to your problem. Frankly, I don't think anyone has any idea what you should do. I haven't seen your problem anywhere else on the Web, and I'm pretty up-to-date on Macintouch. (Actually, there was some similar weirdness when 1.4.1 first came out [for Jaguar] several months ago, but that should be long fixed.) Certainly you do have 1.4.1 installed, in some form, because it's included in Panther.

I agree that it might be best to take it straight to Apple--if your Mac is less than 90 days old (or if you bought AppleCare), you still have free phone support. Otherwise...I guess a reinstall might be in order.

FWIW
WM

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by WM.
I'm not so sure. It seems to me like Apple would have said something like "this update fixes installation problems experienced with 10.3" if this were the case, but instead they refer to "functionality enhancements" or something like that. Plus it updates both 1.3.1 and 1.4.1. That sounds like a lot more than a fix for an installation issue to me.

Where are you getting this information? Not from Apple, I assume, since they haven't updated any KB or developer documentation to reflect this update (AFAICT).

WM

I ran a version check on the Java installed by default with my clean install of 10.3 including the 10.3.1 update. I then just to prove a point downloaded and installed the Java update in question. After restarting I then ran the version check again. No difference same exact build number.

Before update

[12-225-130-113:~] louis% java -version
java version "1.4.1_01"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.1_01-99)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.1_01-27, mixed mode)
[12-225-130-113:~] louis%


After update

[12-225-130-113:~] louis% java -version
java version "1.4.1_01"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.1_01-99)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.1_01-27, mixed mode)
[12-225-130-113:~] louis%

There is no need to install the update if you have the build shown in Apple knowledge base article about the bad Java install. This is the same Java update just reissued due to the failed install problem.

 

[lynnpye]

Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by lynnpye
Those (like me) who did an upgrade instead of an archive/install and found their Java installation broken (HotSpot not found at virtual address message) will still have this problem after this upgrade.

I have upgraded to 10.3.1 and when I saw this Java update, I thought it might fix the problem, but it didn't.

Guess I'll have to go grab my disk and do the manual update *sigh*.

Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything

By that last point, I refer to folks who "say" that if you do the TN2099 fix, but don't do the QT/Java security fix, you still have the QT/Java security fix because you had done the 10.3.1 and Java SU updates. That approach made no sense to me. If TN2099 indicates you have to reapply QT/Java security patch after backlevelling Java to 10.3 version, that suggests the Java framework gets blown away and reinstalled as a result. Even over any SU versions that you may have upgraded to.

Anyway, I decided to go straight to Apple. I have an AppleCare contract and called them up. Essentially, what I was told was that they don't have any more information about it than we do and that the only solution they could think of was to take your current 10.3.1 install and do an Archive/Install back to 10.3 and then go forward from there.

Note that TN2099 does indicate that a user-level (as opposed to developer level) fix from Apple is pending.

I was also told to bring this up to the developers at Apple, though I was not given any indication as to how I might do this.

So, an indication of the "usefulness" of AppleCare? I don't want to condemn them on this point as this is probably a bit further into things than they are intended to go. But it does irritate me that this hasn't been addressed via SU yet and no word has been passed down to the front line support regarding this problem.

 

[MacBandit]

Re: Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by lynnpye
Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything

By that last point, I refer to folks who "say" that if you do the TN2099 fix, but don't do the QT/Java security fix, you still have the QT/Java security fix because you had done the 10.3.1 and Java SU updates. That approach made no sense to me. If TN2099 indicates you have to reapply QT/Java security patch after backlevelling Java to 10.3 version, that suggests the Java framework gets blown away and reinstalled as a result. Even over any SU versions that you may have upgraded to.

Anyway, I decided to go straight to Apple. I have an AppleCare contract and called them up. Essentially, what I was told was that they don't have any more information about it than we do and that the only solution they could think of was to take your current 10.3.1 install and do an Archive/Install back to 10.3 and then go forward from there.

Note that TN2099 does indicate that a user-level (as opposed to developer level) fix from Apple is pending.

I was also told to bring this up to the developers at Apple, though I was not given any indication as to how I might do this.

So, an indication of the "usefulness" of AppleCare? I don't want to condemn them on this point as this is probably a bit further into things than they are intended to go. But it does irritate me that this hasn't been addressed via SU yet and no word has been passed down to the front line support regarding this problem.

To everyone in this predicament. A system reinstall will be the simplest way of curing your problem. Now this is not anywhere near as hard as you may think it is. All that you have to do is start up off your 10.3 install disks. Choose Archive install and chose the option to copy old prefs over. What will happen is a completely new system will be installed but your system prefs and option will be copied to this new system and thus saved. That's all you have to do. You will lose no data. You will not have to do anything but delete the old system which will be in a folder labeled previous system. You will have to change the permissions on the folder labeled 'previous system' in order to delete it. They do this so a non-admin user can't delete vital data on accident.

 

[eogold]

Re: Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by lynnpye
Hi folks.

I am in the group of folks who did the following:
- Had 10.2.x
- Had installed the QT/Java security patch
- Did an upgrade (not archive/install) to 10.3
- Noticed the problem with Java but didn't do anything with it, hoping to get a SU fix
- Upgraded to 10.3.1
- Updated the Java version via SU when it came available
- Saw that they still had a "broken" Java

I have seen a number of folks who have posted what they thought would fix the problem, but what I have not seen is a solution that:
- Fixes Java
- Reinstalls the QT/Java security patch
- Does not require a reinstall of 10.3
- Is "known" to fix everything

Here are a couple things I can add to the discussion:

1. I called Apple support yesterday. They were clueless about my predicament (were not even familiar with the Technote in question). Their only solution was to Archive/Install 10.3, update security via SU, run the 10.3.1 update.

2. Although I have not been having any Java problems and Terminal reports the correct java version, just for the heck of it I manually downloaded the Java/Panther update and successfully installed it.

Everything seems ok, so I guess the only remaining mystery is whether I am still without the 10-28 security update (which I cannot manually install).

I know I can easily do the Archive/Install but I am going to wait a bit to see if there is anything forthcoming from Apple.

There ought to be a solution from Apple that the average user who did an "Upgrade" install of 10.3 can use to get back to having a security-updated Mac and fully functional Java - with having to re-install Panther.

Eric

 

[MacBandit]

Re: Re: Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by eogold
There ought to be a solution from Apple that the average user who did an "Upgrade" install of 10.3 can use to get back to having a security-updated Mac and fully functional Java - with having to re-install Panther.

Eric

In my opinion there is and it's called 10.3.1.

 

[eogold]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by MacBandit
In my opinion there is and it's called 10.3.1.

MacBandit:

I'll make one more attempt to clarify for you...

I (and some of my clients) did the following:

1. Upgrade Install of 10.3
2. SU install of 10-28 Security Patch
3. SU install of 10.3.1
3. SU install of Java/Panther update

However, this still left us with a problematic Java installation as evidenced by an error message after typing "java -version" in Terminal.

Following the instructions in Apple Developer Technote,

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

resulted in the apparent loss of the 10-28 Security update (as plainly stated in the technote) and the inability to re-install the security update either via SU or manual download.

In addition there is the question of how the Panther/Java update was effected by following the technote instructions and re-installing the Java from the original 10.3 disk.

All Apple would recommend was to do an Archive/Install of 10.3, followed by the standard progression of SUs.

I do not understand your comment that the 10.3.1 update somehow solves the problem. As far as I can see, the only "clean" solution for folks in my situation is to reinstall 10.3 via Archive/Install.

My point was that Apple should have provided a way to totally fix the Java issue without forcing an Archive/Install.

Eric

 

[WM.]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I ran a version check on the Java installed by default with my clean install of 10.3 including the 10.3.1 update. I then just to prove a point downloaded and installed the Java update in question. After restarting I then ran the version check again. No difference same exact build number.

There is no need to install the update if you have the build shown in Apple knowledge base article about the bad Java install. This is the same Java update just reissued due to the failed install problem.

Did the build number (as reported by java -version) change with, say, Java 1.4.1 Update 1 (for Jaguar)? I suspect it didn't. I think java -version simply reports which version of the Java spec Apple is using--not which version of Apple's implementation you're running. IOW, I think java -version is reporting the versions of Sun things, not Apple things. So there could be "functionality and stability improvements" that would apply to everyone without incrementing the versions shown by java -version. And I think that's what this Java update is doing.

That said, I don't know a whole lot about Java.

WM

 

[WM.]

A few other things:

--I agree that it would be nice to see a SU fix for this predicament.

--I agree that the best (and, frankly, least confusing) solution at this point, barring a SU download anytime soon, is probably to do an archive and install, then install 10.3.1 and the Java update.

--I agree with lynnpye and eogold that they probably still have an unpatched security hole in their Java.

--I still suggest that perhaps they try deleting the 10.3.1 receipt and installing the 10-28 security update again. I assume that it currently won't install because it sees the 10.3.1 receipt; hopefully removing it would fix that problem.

FWIW
WM

 

[iamscientist]

I feel stupid for asking this, but I can't figure out how to reinstall 10.3 for archive install. I inserted my 10.3 disk 1 and went to install, but I'm not able to select the options tab when I go to do an archive install. It says I have a new version of OS X and cannot install it on the harddrive. I thought Apple computers weren't supposed to have any problems.... ugh.

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by iamscientist
I feel stupid for asking this, but I can't figure out how to reinstall 10.3 for archive install. I inserted my 10.3 disk 1 and went to install, but I'm not able to select the options tab when I go to do an archive install. It says I have a new version of OS X and cannot install it on the harddrive. I thought Apple computers weren't supposed to have any problems.... ugh.

You need to select the clean install option then chose the archive selection. Sounds like you are still trying to do an update which it will not let you do because you have 10.3.1 and it can not backwards update. That would be retrograding.

 

[MacBandit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't fix Panther breakage

Originally posted by eogold
MacBandit:

I'll make one more attempt to clarify for you...

I (and some of my clients) did the following:

1. Upgrade Install of 10.3
2. SU install of 10-28 Security Patch
3. SU install of 10.3.1
3. SU install of Java/Panther update

However, this still left us with a problematic Java installation as evidenced by an error message after typing "java -version" in Terminal.

Following the instructions in Apple Developer Technote,

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2099.html

resulted in the apparent loss of the 10-28 Security update (as plainly stated in the technote) and the inability to re-install the security update either via SU or manual download.

In addition there is the question of how the Panther/Java update was effected by following the technote instructions and re-installing the Java from the original 10.3 disk.

All Apple would recommend was to do an Archive/Install of 10.3, followed by the standard progression of SUs.

I do not understand your comment that the 10.3.1 update somehow solves the problem. As far as I can see, the only "clean" solution for folks in my situation is to reinstall 10.3 via Archive/Install.

My point was that Apple should have provided a way to totally fix the Java issue without forcing an Archive/Install.

Eric

I quite understand your problem from the your very first post. At this point the only sure fire answer is to do the archive install which will take all of 15 minutes.

What I have been trying to say is I believe the security update is built into 10.3.1 and there is no way of removing it without removing 10.3.1. This is my oppinion of course based on what I have read and the results of peoples experiences with 10.3.1 and this Java failure problem. Take if for what you will.

To end this once and for all and to save us all a bunch of time headaches I suggest just doing the reinstall and getting it overwith really it would take less time then you have put into trying to explain your issue to me again.

Sorry if this comes across wrong but I just can't seem to get my point across clearly enough.

 

[BUXEY]

Strange...

What I find a bit strange is that when I checked in my software update panel I discovered that I already installed Java version 1.4.1 a long time ago! Why is this last update also called 1.4.1.?

 

[wms121]

We are definitely getting closer to a 64 bit OS

..lets hope all these newer upgrades help us check for "clean 32 bit" addresses.

Try looking up some of the problems people at Sun and IBM are having with 64 bit Java and Sun's Java 64 extensions. I remember talking to a SGI guy concerning a 64-bit recompile a few years back...he looked so tired an beated it's as though he wished they "had never created 64 bit OS's or processors".

64-bit Universe..here we come Steve Jobs..

<---is going to buy an old performa 5400 for his daughter first