Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
HD Audio? So you can put 3 songs on your 8GB iPhone 5C.

Exactly—while it sounds simple, just up the playback to 192/24 lossless, the implications are staggering. File size, price of headphones ($500+ although some would say much more than that), battery life, more expensive DACs, not to mention what music distributors will think they can get away with charging, given the extortion already employed for lossy mp4s.

I'd be very interested in seeing how this is going to be achieved, given the state of Apple's technology. Takes the wind out of Pono's sails (sales?), when a separate player may in fact be a better idea—iPod rises from its grave, with high bit-rate lossless!

All too little too late in audio terms, for Apple. What could have been a gradual increase in quality, setting audio standards for other manufacturers to follow, has now turned into a marketing checklist imperative (screw Neil Young ✔︎).

For years Apple just let iPod die with NO innovation whatsoever. Stereo is last century. We should be listening to at least 5.1 surround, 192/24 uncompressed (turn of the century Blu-ray standard). And iPods could have had a slow increase in quality and reduction in compression, but Apple dropped iPod development in favour of bringing the same last-century capabilities to iPhone.

Same can be said for iPhone/iPod capacities. Given customers' propensity for photos and video, Apple still sells 8, 16, 32 and maybe 64GB devices, when we should have at least 128, 256 and 500GB models by now.

As for USB 3, don't hold your breath. If you've ever tried to transfer GBs of data to an iDevice, just go and get a beverage. iDevice flash is slower than mud. All part of Apple's let-them-eat-cake and pocket the profits policy.

It's the downside of letting designers and parts buyers run the company. Much better than having accountants run the company, but actual engineers don't get a word in. And Apple's media puppets parrot 'it's not about specs'. It IS if you want to have technological evolution. Otherwise it's a usability revolution, which is fine, but leaves a bad taste in the customer's mouths (will iPhone have an 8MP camera again this year??), and an engineering nightmare when a genius like Schiller (who took 2 years to realise customers wanted bigger screens) wants a marketing checklist point.

Apple is a very diverse company now, and running it like a laser focussed start-up is looking less and less relevant every year. There's no attention to lines of hardware, there's no attention to lines of software (iWork, Pro Apps, etc.), just increasingly annoyed customers, because Apple's single track approach is falling apart under the weight of its own diversity. iOS 7 shipped with the re-spring error for 64bit hardware, and it took nearly a year to fix it. It comes from having only one person, with a one track mind, in charge of everything. Genius mind, but incapable of parallel processing.

Quality just ain't what it used to be at Apple, and if Jobs had realised he needed an engineering management hand guiding this diversity, Cook may not have so many executives and staff to replace right now, because they would feel they had much bigger challenges to prosecute, not just the ulcers from not having enough bodies to do everything at once and bleeding everyone to death, just to get product out the door, years behind customer expectations.

All is not lost, though. Expectations are one thing, but reasonable quality mp3s are all most customers want and they don't even understand the improvement mp4s bring, much less Lossless, and have no concept of 192/24 (which is a professional standard and quite lost on iPhone).

I'm looking forward to how this ill-conceived marketing checklist point gets implemented. Don't get me wrong, I'm a musician and I'd love to have even 48/24 lossless in my 500GB iPhone, might get me interested in listening to music on it, but I don't see the wider public wanting the costs that come along with that.

There's a problem with buying parts years ahead of when you need them. Everything you make will be years behind the technological curve. Apple is clever and can to some extent compensate in software, but supply-chain Cook is no technological manager.

Pity Woz never took to management. We need parallel (engineering) processors in Apple's management mix.

Apple has many diverse products these days, all interdependent and necessary for everything to move forward—iWork is vital to the success of Mac, iPhone, iPad. Pro Apps are vital to Mac Pro and Apple's position as a leader in the Pro industry. It's one thing to have a plan, but unless every part of the whole moves forward, every year, Apple sabotages its success (not financial), but technological, which translates into Customer Satisfaction, Apple's most prized goal of all.
 
If Apple don't offer a 128GB storage option for iPhone 6 then that'll be the third year in a row that they've stuck with 64GB. With a handful of Android competitors including 128GB they would have had trouble justifying that anyway, but if these higher-resolution iTunes downloads with the associated larger file sizes materialise then they'll have a doubly hard time justifying their position.
This is really something that is starting to bother me. More so for the iPad than the iPhone. It has gotten to the point that you really feel like Apple is ripping people off with the price structure they have for flash memory. They are basically charging $100 bucks for flash sizes you can buy for $20 retail as SD cards or thumb drives.

Now some idiot will chime in and say that the flash isn't the same. That is obvious but the flash they use is actually pretty cheap stuff. It has been awhile since I looked but flash was dirt cheap a couple of years ago when Apple was charging stiffly for the upgrades. Now it is just offensive.

----------

Especially when you dont even get the full 16GB, by the time the OS is loaded then all the "apple apps" get loaded you're down to about 8 GB free for your own apps, music, videos, etc.

It is even worst on an iPad. If we don't see a significant increase in flash sizes at each price point this year I will have to think Apple has taken one big fat stupid pill. If they don't realize how people make use of their devices by now it will demonstrate just how out of touch they are.

What has it been, about three years now since they have addressed flash sizes. In that time the industry has gone through two generations of flash devices. As a result the price of raw flash has dropped like a rock. Paying $100 for 16 or 32GB of flash is just ridiculous.
 
In reference to the HD Audio coming to the iPhone:

1)Too little, too late. Apple has had years (even far before the iPhone was introduced) to put STANDARDS-BASED lossless/hd files on the iDevices and has not.

2)Even if Apple does put HD audio on the iDevices, it would be very unlikely that anyone would ever hear a difference between a 192k+ mp3 and any lossless format while using a)headphones, b)listening in a car, c)listening on a boombox or similar system. HD audio/lossless audio, requires very high quality audio gear (amp, receiver, AND speakers) to be appreciated and even NOTICED...not to mention the room/listening acoustics....and of course the original material itself is a good "recording" on the original master.

3)The file size of a lossless file is still 30%+ larger than a 320k mp3...that's nothing on computers with 500GB+ drives...but on 16GB-64GB iDevices, that will eat up a lot of space quickly. If you up the ante to a lossless HD file (meaning higher bitrate than standard cd audio), those HD files will likely be 100%+ larger than a 320k mp3. Therefore, Apple would need to start launching iDevices that start at 32GB or 64GB instead of the ridiculous 16GB they have been doing for years.

4)I have all my mp3s @ 320k and they sound really good...but if I pop in the original CD, I can hear a difference on my home stereo (albeit a small difference while paying attention)...and again, that's because I'm using a/v equipment that costs (in total) more than $1500...most people, especially in the past 20+ years with the mass market of bookshelf/room "stereos" ranging from $200-$600, are not going to be able to tell the difference between 192k mp3s and 320k mp3s and even wav/original cds.

5)ANOTHER Lightning cable? I would pray that it is 100% backwards compatible with all the Lightning accessories.
 
This is really something that is starting to bother me. More so for the iPad than the iPhone. It has gotten to the point that you really feel like Apple is ripping people off with the price structure they have for flash memory. They are basically charging $100 bucks for flash sizes you can buy for $20 retail as SD cards or thumb drives.

Now some idiot will chime in and say that the flash isn't the same. That is obvious but the flash they use is actually pretty cheap stuff. It has been awhile since I looked but flash was dirt cheap a couple of years ago when Apple was charging stiffly for the upgrades. Now it is just offensive.

----------



It is even worst on an iPad. If we don't see a significant increase in flash sizes at each price point this year I will have to think Apple has taken one big fat stupid pill. If they don't realize how people make use of their devices by now it will demonstrate just how out of touch they are.

What has it been, about three years now since they have addressed flash sizes. In that time the industry has gone through two generations of flash devices. As a result the price of raw flash has dropped like a rock. Paying $100 for 16 or 32GB of flash is just ridiculous.

Exactly. Whenever this subject comes up, it's like discussing the old, near-bankruptcy Apple.
 
Not necessarily. I run a high end system off iPod/iPhone with portable DAC/amp/headphones. The DAC makes the least amount of difference when taken out of the chain. The quality of the head/earphones has the most effect followed by the amp.

You might as well give it up as audiophiles do not like to have their opinions questioned. Anybody with any sense that has spent a few minutes trying out different headphones or earphones(buds) will have to admit that the quality of the sound varies widely with the devices in question. More importantly the sound varies significantly based on how you wear the device.
 
Exactly—while it sounds simple, just up the playback to 192/24 lossless, the implications are staggering. File size, price of headphones ($500+ although some would say much more than that), battery life, more expensive DACs, not to mention what music distributors will think they can get away with charging, given the extortion already employed for lossy mp4s.

I'd be very interested in seeing how this is going to be achieved, given the state of Apple's technology. Takes the wind out of Pono's sails (sales?), when a separate player may in fact be a better idea—iPod rises from its grave, with high bit-rate lossless!

All too little too late in audio terms, for Apple. What could have been a gradual increase in quality, setting audio standards for other manufacturers to follow, has now turned into a marketing checklist imperative (screw Neil Young ✔︎).

For years Apple just let iPod die with NO innovation whatsoever. Stereo is last century. We should be listening to at least 5.1 surround, 192/24 uncompressed (turn of the century Blu-ray standard). And iPods could have had a slow increase in quality and reduction in compression, but Apple dropped iPod development in favour of bringing the same last-century capabilities to iPhone.

Same can be said for iPhone/iPod capacities. Given customers' propensity for photos and video, Apple still sells 8, 16, 32 and maybe 64GB devices, when we should have at least 128, 256 and 500GB models by now.

As for USB 3, don't hold your breath. If you've ever tried to transfer GBs of data to an iDevice, just go and get a beverage. iDevice flash is slower than mud. All part of Apple's let-them-eat-cake and pocket the profits policy.

It's the downside of letting designers and parts buyers run the company. Much better than having accountants run the company, but actual engineers don't get a word in. And Apple's media puppets parrot 'it's not about specs'. It IS if you want to have technological evolution. Otherwise it's a usability revolution, which is fine, but leaves a bad taste in the customer's mouths (will iPhone have an 8MP camera again this year??), and an engineering nightmare when a genius like Schiller (who took 2 years to realise customers wanted bigger screens) wants a marketing checklist point.

Apple is a very diverse company now, and running it like a laser focussed start-up is looking less and less relevant every year. There's no attention to lines of hardware, there's no attention to lines of software (iWork, Pro Apps, etc.), just increasingly annoyed customers, because Apple's single track approach is falling apart under the weight of its own diversity. iOS 7 shipped with the re-spring error for 64bit hardware, and it took nearly a year to fix it. It comes from having only one person, with a one track mind, in charge of everything. Genius mind, but incapable of parallel processing.

Quality just ain't what it used to be at Apple, and if Jobs had realised he needed an engineering management hand guiding this diversity, Cook may not have so many executives and staff to replace right now, because they would feel they had much bigger challenges to prosecute, not just the ulcers from not having enough bodies to do everything at once and bleeding everyone to death, just to get product out the door, years behind customer expectations.

All is not lost, though. Expectations are one thing, but reasonable quality mp3s are all most customers want and they don't even understand the improvement mp4s bring, much less Lossless, and have no concept of 192/24 (which is a professional standard and quite lost on iPhone).

I'm looking forward to how this ill-conceived marketing checklist point gets implemented. Don't get me wrong, I'm a musician and I'd love to have even 48/24 lossless in my 500GB iPhone, might get me interested in listening to music on it, but I don't see the wider public wanting the costs that come along with that.

There's a problem with buying parts years ahead of when you need them. Everything you make will be years behind the technological curve. Apple is clever and can to some extent compensate in software, but supply-chain Cook is no technological manager.

Pity Woz never took to management. We need parallel (engineering) processors in Apple's management mix.

Apple has many diverse products these days, all interdependent and necessary for everything to move forward—iWork is vital to the success of Mac, iPhone, iPad. Pro Apps are vital to Mac Pro and Apple's position as a leader in the Pro industry. It's one thing to have a plan, but unless every part of the whole moves forward, every year, Apple sabotages its success (not financial), but technological, which translates into Customer Satisfaction, Apple's most prized goal of all.

Yes! You're spot on - Apple needs to retain its creative DNA but that's not mutually exclusive with growth and evolution.
 
No such animal as proper headphones !!!!!
I perfer B&W light and comfortable.

By proper I mean headphones that are actually musically high quality and reproduce it properly, not branded crap you find in over price department stores, I think you'll find all the ones I mentioned light and comfortable, B&W are a very average mainstream hi-fi company.

----------

No.

It started getting embarrassing about no FLAC support years ago, but now FLAC is increasingly used in mainstream usage. At some point the executives that have been holding the gate on this will have to re-evaluate.

FLAC is only used in illegally ripped mainstream usage. So Apple won't budge, they already have an Apple lossless encoder - also it takes less than 8 seconds to convert an entire album with XLD so I have no idea what you're moaning about.

----------

Or you could just be gullible and fall prey to very effective marketing!!! In the end it is what you hear when you put on the headphones that makes the difference. That difference can vary widely from person to person.

The very effectively marketing would be exactly what Bose, B&W and Beats are using, the headphones are mentioned are the ones which deliver far superior sonic quality but are not sold over priced in department stores for people who know no better. Its quite sad really.
 
Apple will probably never support FLAC as they have their own competing ALAC (Apple Lossless) format which is pretty much the same thing. If they want "HD" audio they will simply remove the 16/48k player and hardware limitations (the codec can already go higher than that).
I just had this idea flash in my head, why doesn't Apple make a pro iPod. Here I mean an iPod that can plug right into studio equipment via the use of the most common studio connectors (probably XLR). Sure it wouldn't fulfill mainstream needs but a device that played "HD Audio" and supported good D/A conversion would be very interesting.

By the way, yes I know XLR connectors are big and fat. I'm confident that Apple could find a solution though that works for a larger iPod device, maybe something to replace the Classic.
Thunderbolt relies on PCI-Express to work. iPhone and iPad hardware don't have any PCI-E lanes and adding them is not feasible.
I'd have to argue about feasibility. It isn't impossible to add PCI Express to an ARM based SoC. The incentive to do so might not be there but I would rule it out.
USB3 is very possible, however.

This needs to happen soon. Apple has really let things slide with respect to iPods / iPhones. However note that this isn't much different than adding PCI Express to a SoC. USB 3 needs more hardware support than the older versions so I understand why it may be taking Apple awhile to implement UsB3.
 
By proper I mean headphones that are actually musically high quality and reproduce it properly, not branded crap you find in over price department stores, I think you'll find all the ones I mentioned light and comfortable, B&W are a very average mainstream hi-fi company.

B&W's headphones are a bit of a disappointment, but I find their loudspeakers are excellent and well worth their price. However, every speaker has their own unique sound, so they may not be your cup of tea.

I doubt Apple is going to release HD audio soon. Nobody can hear the difference between CD and HD audio, and very few believe they can. It's not a large market.

I know that comment is going to generate some :rolleyes: but until anyone can provide evidence that any human can hear the difference between 16/44.1 and HD audio, there's no point. The science is here: http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
Refute it if you like.

I must admit, I'd be happy if they released ALAC files at 16/44.1, but I'm not expecting it. I'd actually start buying from iTunes if they did that.
 
By proper I mean headphones that are actually musically high quality and reproduce it properly, not branded crap you find in over price department stores, I think you'll find all the ones I mentioned light and comfortable, B&W are a very average mainstream hi-fi company.

----------



FLAC is only used in illegally ripped mainstream usage. So Apple won't budge, they already have an Apple lossless encoder - also it takes less than 8 seconds to convert an entire album with XLD so I have no idea what you're moaning about.

----------



The very effectively marketing would be exactly what Bose, B&W and Beats are using, the headphones are mentioned are the ones which deliver far superior sonic quality but are not sold over priced in department stores for people who know no better. Its quite sad really.
Not sure why you putting B&W in same sentence with Beats and Bose. B&WMakes audiophile quality products.
 
The idea of mobile devices with the inevitable poor quality headphones for 24-bit audio playback is a joke. You don't need a lightning cable for HD playback. The worlds best systems are still analog stereo when they hit the speakers.

The quality is in the DAC, the amplifier and speakers / headphones. When people want to listen to audiophile level audio they are not popping in a pair of in-ear headphones.

I also can't imagine the battery hit on something like this.

The internal DAC and amplifier in a small device such as an iPhone or iPod Touch will never meet the quality of a good DAC and amplifier seen in a home system.

I personally do not care if the mobile devices support the hi-res. I am fine with iTune Match using a 256k version when I stream to my device. I do not plan on using my mobile device for "critical" listening. I will save that for my home system with higher end equipment.

I will also never store my hi-res library on my mobile device. However, the concept of Lightening to an external DAC is interesting and with the right storage size could produce decent audio to an external system.

So, with all that said, a pair of high quality, high-end headphones (in-ear or over the ear) really makes no sense if the device cannot produce a decent quality output. Although I occasionally use a higher end Denon in-ear headphones with my phone, it is not so I can listen to hi-res music. They feel better and provide a better dynamic, IMO, than some of the others I have used.

I do use the new Apple earbuds, but usually just when I am taking a call.

You can play 24/96khz in iTunes too.

It can also play 24/176 and 24/192 ALAC files. I use Max to convert my FLAC files to ALAC. I purchase my HD music from HDTracks. I would use iTunes if the price and quality was comparable. Not all HD music is created the same. Also, iTunes Match is early able to match my 96/176/192 files. If I want them available by the cloud, I need to manually create a AAC version for the cloud to "match."

Although the native Mac CoreAudio will not change sampling rates per song, you can bypass the CoreAudio and allow a third party software to do it. I run both Amarra and Audiarvana as my software. It changes sampling rates which are validated on my DAC's interface.

----------

Not sure why you putting B&W in same sentence with Beats and Bose. B&WMakes audiophile quality products.

I know, right.

I don't have B&W headphones, but I do have a 5.1 B&W setup at home using their 800 Series speaker line. :cool:

----------

B&W's headphones are a bit of a disappointment, but I find their loudspeakers are excellent and well worth their price. However, every speaker has their own unique sound, so they may not be your cup of tea.

It is not always the speakers fault. It is sometimes the pairing of the speaker an an amplifier. The digital amps, IMO, produce a harsher sound than the AB amps. I prefer a bit of a warmer sound. It give off a more pleasing bottom end.
 
Solely emotional and not necessarily for any other reason. Given that MR is a US-based site and the US has a history of not wanting to remain British... :)

Most companies these days are international in distribution so I don't identify many with the country they evolved in. There are few products I think of as British, none of which come to mind at the moment.
 
Not sure why you putting B&W in same sentence with Beats and Bose. B&WMakes audiophile quality products.

Definitely NOT audiophile quality, you find me a hifi forum or a pro audio forum where anyone is running B&W anything. They're money comes from hideous sounding and overprice iPod/iPhone docks sold in department stores and high street electronics retailers. Harman Kardon are also as bad.
 
This is good news! In times of high-res video downloads and streaming these compressed audio formats are ridiculous.

But I'd rather have dynamically intact lossy compressed audio formats than dynamically slammed and lifeless high resolution lossless/uncompressed 24/96 formats.

Is this really good news if we're still going to get loudness wars tracks?

Well, no need to worry about that. It'll only be Mastered for iTunes albums that they release in higher quality. They don't have the lossless versions of "iTunes Plus" tracks and it'd be a step backward to release CD- or better-than-CD-quality albums that had been mastered during all the loudness rubbish.

I've seen a lot of Mastered for iTunes albums that are "loudness rubbish."

I bet those 10 people that ordered pono players are super psyched about this...

The thousands of people that have ordered them will be if they commit to releasing only dynamically intact music. Mastering and production are infinitely more important than bit-depth and sampling rate.

Yes. And I'm not a famous musician that can leverage my name. I was just pointing out that audiophiles are a small segment of consumers.

But that small segment is keeping several labels in business (Audio Fidelity, Analogue Productions, MOFI, etc) while the major labels are in a tail spin trying to stop the bleeding.

FLAC is only used in illegally ripped mainstream usage.

Vast majority of artists I buy from who sell directly offer FLAC as the lossless option and no other, artists like Phish, Dave Matthews Band and Pearl Jam also now offer a 24-bit FLAC option for the newest releases. Most audiophile stores that sell digital downloads use FLAC or DSD.
 
Sony in-ear buds are the best. $20. Best headphones I've ever gotten. And I bought Beats (then sold them)

You are not wrong. And I should know. :roll eyes:
I've tested quite a few. In my honest opinion, there is no substitute for a 13.5mm driver. (plus a modicum of noise-canceling on the side)
 
MDR7509 were great but discontinued 2 years ago any floating around "new" and are knockoffs and sound terrible so avoid buying from eBay and Amazon third party resellers.
People ought to stop buying expensive consumer headphones and but what music engineers musicians in studios use they're cheaper and they're the best most accurate representation of what you're listening too so think: Sony MDR7506, Senn HD25-1 II and the Beyerdynamic, audio tehnica equiv industry standards - professional headphones like these will give you the best bang for your buck and give you some street cred,
This certainly is good advice but it also supports my point which is that what sounds best is often very subjective and personal. You put a hundred sound engineers into a room and ask them which headphone is best and you will likely get a hundred different answers. This from people with extensive experience with all sorts of hardware.

This is why when somebody tries to say that device XYZ is the absolute best, I have to reject them completely.
if you become and sh a musician, a sound recordist a mixer whatever you have pro cans for everyday use already.
Buy once buy right, don't by consumer over exaggerated bass stuff in the long run it's not a solid investment.

True it is best to avoid hardware that over exaggerates base, if for nothing else than to save your hearing. However not everything consumer has over exaggerated base.
 
I just had this idea flash in my head, why doesn't Apple make a pro iPod. Here I mean an iPod that can plug right into studio equipment via the use of the most common studio connectors (probably XLR). Sure it wouldn't fulfill mainstream needs but a device that played "HD Audio" and supported good D/A conversion would be very interesting.

Worst idea ever.

This needs to happen soon. Apple has really let things slide with respect to iPods / iPhones. However note that this isn't much different than adding PCI Express to a SoC. USB 3 needs more hardware support than the older versions so I understand why it may be taking Apple awhile to implement UsB3.
iPods are phasing out because nobody who carries a smartphone would carry an iPod with them.
 
Heh. No need to have to go to the top of Shure's line to beat Apple's buds. Even the SE215s can beat those clowns. I'm a big fan of Shure though and VERY happy Apple didn't by them out. :D I've never had the privilege to listen to the SE846s -- way above my pay - but I did graduate to the SE535s a couple years ago. Painful to spend that much money but they'll also likely be the last buds I ever need.

I use the 535s while DJing. The best $500+ dollars I ever spent and they have virtually stopped ear fatigue and saved my hearing.
 
The apogee mic 96k uses the lightning port for digital HD. So why not?

Youre missing the point. Why is it necessary for Apple to make a new (and you can bet your behinds more expensive, too) cable when:
-Standard USB cables have been in use for years with 24/96 audio equipment
-apogee can already handle 24/96 over lightning.
-Apple's whole pitch of ditching the 30-pin dock ecosystem in favor of lightning because "its more versatile for the future" yet here we are two years later and theyre saying they have to make new, different ones (which will only be compatible with the new hardware, of course)

Whats happening here is the user community smelling something that isnt flowers...
 
Unless they bring out a subscription based service like google play all access or spotify, if you have access to that, then I'm not really interested. Sound quality is good enough on those services.

Give me subscription that I can download to my mobile devices and stream on my computer then I would almost certainly jump ship from GPMA.
 
No matter what Apple do on the software / D-A side, it won't matter as their devices are too thin to handle the large components needed for exceptional audio quality.
 
Bluetooth headphones

I agree with the earlier poster. When you switch to bluetooth headphones. It's near impossible to switch back. You realize what annoyance and how you have to alter your body movements to avoid getting caught up in the cord.

I have Jaybird BlueBuds and I lost them after having them for a year. I tried switching to cords again, but couldn't do it and ended up dropping another $150 on a new pair of BlueBuds.

Sound quality is slightly degraded compared to wired high-end ear monitors but it is mostly not noticeable unless you are in a very quiet environment without distractions.

I actually think they actually sound slightly better than the apple wired headphones, they emphasize frequencies that are more pleasant to my ears and don't fatigue my ears with prolonged listening even at higher volumes.

I have a few more expensive cans for audio production, but they are just inconvenient for every day usage. I don't typically buy expensive ear monitors. I bought shure 315s a few years back, but blew the driver in them after 6 months by accident.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.