Apple Publishes FAQ to Address Concerns About CSAM Detection and Messages Scanning

[jntdroid]

We’re honored to have on the forum the head engineer of this multi-million $ system, good evening sir.

Thanks for the great insight.

Anybody else wanna adlib in detail about how this system works and fails?

I’ll bring pencils and napkins to write on.

You questioned my expertise. I let you know what that expertise is.

@giggles - C'mon now... is your "expertise" the only one allowed on this thread? You have some very valid and logical points, and there is definitely a lot of misinformation and knee-jerk reaction to this situation that you are doing a good job of countering. But when someone approaches you with a logical and sound thought process that you simply disagree with, you discredit yourself with responses like this, and it only hinders your case. Debate 101. Or heck - Respectful Human Interaction 101.

Thank you for posturing yourself as the leading expert in why this multi-million $$ system is infallible. We're honored to have you with us.

 

[Mebsat]

That happens to me ALL the time...hackers randomly picking me to put offensive images onto my private camera roll so I will then have it uploaded to iCloud to be perfectly matched with multiple images in the CSAM database of hashed images Apple has added to my phone so they can then review and of course prove that I uploaded/saved those photos myself...happens to me at least twice a day... just unlucky I guess.. /s

Consider that maybe you're not the target. Review the Pegasus platform and understand that law enforcement can already root your phone with a text. If they want to create a reason to get a warrant, a way to trigger a NCEC report is a very nice tool to have.

 

[MozMan68]

Consider that maybe you're not the target. Review the Pegasus platform and understand that law enforcement can already root your phone with a text. If they want to create a reason to get a warrant, a way to trigger a NCEC report is a very nice tool to have.

What have you done that makes you think the government wants to do that to you? 🤣

You've been watching too many movies.

 

[Mebsat]

What have you done that makes you think the government wants to do that to you? 🤣

You've been watching too many movies.

I don't think I am the target either, I just recognize the problem.

Report: Pegasus Spyware Sold to Governments Uses Zero-Click iMessage Exploit to Infect iPhones Running iOS 14.6

Journalists, lawyers, and human rights activists around the world have been targeted by authoritarian governments using phone malware made by Israeli surveillance firm NSO Group, according to multiple media reports. An investigation by 17 media organizations and Amnesty International's...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[sracer]

Google has been doing this with GMail since 2014

Google scans everyone’s email for child porn, and it just got a man arrested

Search giant trawls photos for illegal “digital fingerprints”

www.theverge.com

No one bats an eye for that

But when Apple does it, NOW everyone gets upset

Why is this?

It's not complicated. Google has not marketed its products and services as being focused on privacy. Apple does. Apple uses its claim of focus on privacy in part to justify the higher costs of their products and services and why their services are more restrictive than their competitors.

Apple is now slowly but steadily weakening the elements of privacy that they were marketing. The people who are upset at Apple for doing this are well aware of the difference. The promise of privacy is one of the reasons they chose Apple products over Google's.

People like myself who understand that Apple's promise of privacy was essentially nothing more than a marketing tactic aren't angry at Apple. We already knew it was for show.

edited: fixed typo

 

[q64ceo]

If you don't want Apple spying on you, and since Google spies on everyone using Android, this is the phone you should buy:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133614263196

 

[cipher29]

It's legal to have say pics/vids of yourself, say a frat boy, sexually assaulting women? 🤔

Or take dressingroom/upskirt pics? Last I checked that was still all illegal and photos are evidence of your crime (or someone else's)

It's a moral choice by Apple here so that nobody can say you support the pedos; no one can oppose them doing this in principle. Very buzzword hot button issue to finally go after 10 years after icloud was launched. Why now suddenly 10 years later?

The old "won't someone please think of the children" argument.

It's simply Apple reducing their legal risk. For the most part, having a picture up someone's skirt or in a dressing room isn't illegal. It's illegal to "take" those pics, but not illegal in most countries to possess those pictures. A photograph is most certainly great evidence against someone committing a crime, but having the photo itself is generally not a crime.

Possessing child pornography is a crime in most countries. It may actually even be illegal for Apple to be storing it on their infrastructure, even unknowingly (ignorance doesn't mean you get a pass). Apple may feel that there's significant legal risk at this point and is taking steps to mitigate the risk.

Not saying I've solved why Apple is doing it - just my opinion and guess as to why they are taking these steps.

 

[The Game 161]

The way I heard it described on a podcast was like this:

Apple is not doing a visual scan of your photos. They're not looking at the actual contents of your photos.

They are, instead, comparing hashes of *known* CSAM images. These are photos that have already been labeled as child porn.

So there's no danger of Apple flagging a photo of your child in the bathtub or whatever.

With all that said... no one knows what else Apple could do in the future. Perhaps they could start scanning the actual contents of your photos. So I can see why people are freaked out.

But as others have said... all of the big companies are doing similar things. So I dunno.

Yeah this isn’t an issue it’s what they could do in the future is what likely concerns more people

 

[Mebsat]

People like myself who understand that Apple's promise of privacy was essentially nothing more than a marketing tactic aren't angry at Apple. We already knew it was for show.

The problem is now they have made that explicit for everyone. Shareholders will have to judge whether this is a breach of fiduciary duty or not. Consumer trust is a very valuable asset, Apple has damaged it with this decision. Time will tell how much sales and customer sat scores are affected.

 

[sracer]

The problem is now they have made that explicit for everyone. Shareholders will have to judge whether this is a breach of fiduciary duty or not. Consumer trust is a very valuable asset, Apple has damaged it with this decision. Time will tell how much sales and customer sat scores are affected.

I believe that Apple has a great understanding of their customer base. I predict that any effect to sales (which is really the only thing that matters) will be nothing more than a rounding error on the balance sheet.


(fixed typo)

 

[I7guy]

It's not complicated.

It isn't simple either.

Google has not marketed its products and services as being focused on privacy. Apple does. Apple uses its claim of focus on priority in part to justify the higher costs of their products and services and why their services are more restrictive than their competitors.

So therefore Google can be excused for scanning for illegal content? That makes no sense on the face of it. Apple privacy on PII hasn't changed...they aren't going to be complicit in the distribution of illegal matter. That doesn't make them less private.

Apple is now slowly but steadily weakening the elements of privacy that they were marketing.

I disagree, and, imo, the masses of paying customer that enable Apple to generate $50B revenue/quarter won't care or will support this.

The people who are upset at Apple for doing this are well aware of the difference. The promise of privacy is one of the reasons they chose Apple products over Google's.

Nobody from Apple promised distribution of illegal material would be exempt from "privacy".

People like myself who understand that Apple's promise of privacy was essentially nothing more than a marketing tactic aren't angry at Apple. We already knew it was for show.

I don't believe anything really will change as a result of this "revelation".

 

[Mebsat]

I would generally agree with that take but this seems to be heating up. I think they have made a serious error here. Allowing WhatsApp and Sweeney (Epic) a soapbox is a bad move. Coupled with a large vulnerability (could always happen) and they risk being made into the clown. Hubris has blinded them.

 

[SactoGuy18]

BTW I dunno if anyone's old enough to recall Tom Cruise's "Minority Report", could that be the future of Apple?

That's more a future that Google wants.

 

[JeMeCasse]

I hope they release stats on how many people they've caught. The amount of press this is getting it won't be many.

 

[crymimefireworks]

So therefore Google can be excused for scanning for illegal content? That makes no sense on the face of it. Apple privacy on PII hasn't changed...they aren't going to be complicit in the distribution of illegal matter. That doesn't make them less private.

You're right, Google cannot be excused. I have not excused them, I have cut Google out of my life in every way possible. And used the Apple ecosystem to fall back on. That was my mistake. Apple is no better.

2 months ago Apple ran this "Mind your own business" ad. I thought it was a sign of something different:

 

[I7guy]

You're right, Google cannot be excused. I have not excused them, I have cut Google out of my life in every way possible. And used the Apple ecosystem to fall back on. That was my mistake. Apple is no better.

2 months ago Apple ran this "Mind your own business" ad. I thought it was a sign of something different:

I still believe there is a fundamental difference between Apples' stance on privacy and Apples' stance on "aiding and abetting" in the distribution of illegal materials.

 

[jshannon01]

Under that assumption, they could do whatever they want behind closed doors already. Hell, why even publish this stuff about CSAM, if they could just do it without telling people, as you say?

It's a "testing of the waters" so they do not get mass-sued for their previous stance on privacy.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I still believe there is a fundamental difference between Apples' stance on privacy and Apples' stance on "aiding and abetting" in the distribution of illegal materials.

Any thoughts on where that belief comes from? I feel like we're both kind of stuck with different believes but no real "truth". To you this isn't a change to Apple's approach to PII. To me it is. But we're both kind of making assumptions.

Let's say you're completely right, and this isn't a change. Apple's intent and policy conflicted with my values all along, I misunderstood the policies, and I'm just noticing now. Is that wrong of me? What's important about my error to you?

 

[H. Flower]

China has recently been cracking down on Big Tech

 

[turbineseaplane]

Must read on all this from Ben Thompson

He really nails it with Policy vs Capability

Apple’s Mistake

While it’s possible to understand Apple’s motivations behind its decision to enable on-device scanning, the company had a better way to satisfy its societal obligations while preserving…

stratechery.com

 

[Tooldog]

America was founded to have the freedoms you gladly give up for a shiny new gadget. I think maybe those of you who don't love freedom should go somewhere you can be monitored at all times and executed for speaking the wrong thing or loving the wrong person. The freedom you enjoy was paid with blood and toil, yet you give it away as if it was nothing. Members of my family died in both the American and the French revolutions and I have no pity for those of you shilling for the loss of those freedoms. Privacy is a right.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

America was founded to have the freedoms you gladly give up for a shiny new gadget. I think maybe those of you who don't love freedom should go somewhere you can be monitored at all times and executed for speaking the wrong thing or loving the wrong person. The freedom you enjoy was paid with blood and toil, yet you give it away as if it was nothing. Members of my family died in both the American and the French revolutions and I have no pity for those of you shilling for the loss of those freedoms. Privacy is a right.

In what way is Apple infringing your right to privacy?

An on-device AI analysis of images that converts the said data to an encrypted ticket, that is then compared to a known database of indecent images?

I really don’t think a 232 year old parchment of paper says this is wrong…

 

[Tooldog]

Dear Apple Employee. You do not have the right or permission to examine the data on a device owned by me by any known or as yet unknown means. You have do not have the right to enable anyone else, either physically or mechanically, to examine any device or data on a device owned by me. Period.

 

[MozMan68]

Dear Apple Employee. You do not have the right or permission to examine the data on a device owned by me by any known or as yet unknown means. You have do not have the right to enable anyone else, either physically or mechanically, to examine any device or data on a device owned by me. Period.

Dear Tooldog, You do not have the right to maintain child pornography on your device or transmit it physically or digitally…

Hey..this is fun…give me another one!

 

[q64ceo]

You're right, Google cannot be excused. I have not excused them, I have cut Google out of my life in every way possible. And used the Apple ecosystem to fall back on. That was my mistake. Apple is no better.

2 months ago Apple ran this "Mind your own business" ad. I thought it was a sign of something different:

May I suggest that you purchase this as your next phone?

Its got great security and it doesn't spy on you.