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Apple Publishes FAQ to Address Concerns About CSAM Detection and Messages Scanning

jntdroid said:
They do a lot with data on our phones already, but most of those things have a toggle to opt out. And most of those things aren't built with the intention of catching bad guys. I believe the intentionality is fundamental difference. It's Apple dipping their feet into a role that the authorities would normally have.
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Just to add on to this. I'm not at all interested in a future where law enforcement roles are proactively taking place on my device by going through my files.

Law enforcement needs to take normal steps and have just cause and get warrants to be going through data.

Having tech companies "help them" by installing ways to scan everyones stuff, on their devices, with no reasonable cause or suspicion...

Is flat out wrong and on the path to dystopia.
 
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turbineseaplane said:
Just to add on to this. I'm not at all interested in a future where law enforcement roles are proactively taking place on my device by going through my files.

Law enforcement needs to take normal steps and have just cause and get warrants to be going through data.

Having tech companies "help them" by installing ways to scan everyones stuff, on their devices, with no reasonable cause or suspicion...

Is flat out wrong and on the path to dystopia.
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I wouldn't go that far with it, but only because I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, to a fault. But the fact of the matter is there is a path that leads to what you describe, and what Apple is doing here, even if shrouded in good intention, is putting one foot on this path.
 
turbineseaplane said:
Sure does!
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No it doesn’t.
Nobody has hacked Secure Enclave for TouchID or FaceID right? If I’m correct and the Hash is created and stored in the secures enclave and processed before uploading, and since the info is not publicly accessible it’s not easily spoofed or extracted to malicious web or text like the person you’ve quoted thinks should indefinitely be fixed.

A square isn’t a 3 sided object nor is a cube a prism
 
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VulchR said:
First, the process apparently only matches known examples of content already deemed illegal, so it won't stop new material from being generated on somebody's iPhone. As I said in my first post, I appreciate Apple's sentiment. However, this search without probable cause, and therefore I think this idea lacks balance, to put it mildly. We can stop the vast majority of all sexual assaults by locking up all men. We can protect the rights of all men by making sure they are never locked up. The point is to get a balance between these two extremes. I believe Apple has got the balance way wrong because I believe they should have either probable cause or my permission to scan private photographs; I believe Apple are not properly estimating the likelihood of false positives; I am uncomfortable the human review they propose after a picture matches a hash; and I know that their system could be altered just ever-so-slightly for purposes far less noble than detecting child porn. If an autocratic government gets a hold of this, you can kiss goodbye to any political opposition and say hello to all sorts of systematised oppression.

It's simple: the pictures I take are mine (indeed in the UK the taker of a picture has an unalienable copyright). They are none of Apple's business unless they first suspect a crime or that I have otherwise violated their T&C's,. Apple should have probable cause before they do anything so invasive as scanning my photo's. Seriously, what's next? Scanning text? Tracking web traffic? Monitoring audio calls? Law enforcement is already doing that, and we don't need Apple piling on.

I am sorry to hear about your friend's sister. My family has been affected by sexual abuse, but nothing Apple proposes to do would have changed that. Better law enforcement would. If Apple wants to help, let it donate funds to law enforcement.
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much appreciate the sentiment and I’m sorry your family has been affected by sexual abuse.

this reply in full best explains where Apple went wrong and now I see it better. Thank you.

sometimes we need healthy debates like this to come to this understanding, enlightenment and realization that our own convictions or opinions may not be the best ones made.

cheers
 
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VulchR said:
First, the process apparently only matches known examples of content already deemed illegal, so it won't stop new material from being generated on somebody's iPhone. As I said in my first post, I appreciate Apple's sentiment. However, this search without probable cause, and therefore I think this idea lacks balance, to put it mildly. We can stop the vast majority of all sexual assaults by locking up all men. We can protect the rights of all men by making sure they are never locked up. The point is to get a balance between these two extremes. I believe Apple has got the balance way wrong because I believe they should have either probable cause or my permission to scan private photographs; I believe Apple are not properly estimating the likelihood of false positives; I am uncomfortable the human review they propose after a picture matches a hash; and I know that their system could be altered just ever-so-slightly for purposes far less noble than detecting child porn. If an autocratic government gets a hold of this, you can kiss goodbye to any political opposition and say hello to all sorts of systematised oppression.

It's simple: the pictures I take are mine (indeed in the UK the taker of a picture has an unalienable copyright). They are none of Apple's business unless they first suspect a crime or that I have otherwise violated their T&C's,. Apple should have probable cause before they do anything so invasive as scanning my photo's. Seriously, what's next? Scanning text? Tracking web traffic? Monitoring audio calls? Law enforcement is already doing that, and we don't need Apple piling on.

I am sorry to hear about your friend's sister. My family has been affected by sexual abuse, but nothing Apple proposes to do would have changed that. Better law enforcement would. If Apple wants to help, let it donate funds to law enforcement.
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Probable cause does not pertain to Apple as Apple is not a representative of law enforcement nor is Apple acting as an agent for the state or federal government.
 
jntdroid said:
I wouldn't go that far with it, but only because I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, to a fault.
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You're far more generous than I - :D ;)
These tech companies have earned every bit of skepticism they get, at least in my opinion.

Better to err on the side of caution in my view.
Once the cat is out of the bag on technology like this, it's borderline impossible to reel it back in.

For example - look at airport security theater that we've had in the USA post 9/11
We haven't really rolled back any of the misery - mostly expanded it - and what it actually "stops" is almost nothing.

But -- it has facilitated a wide rollout of programs to get very detailed information on a lot of the population.
 
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Someone please educate me: I thought iMessage was end-to-end encrypted. Is it not? Does the encryption only apply to accounts that are not monitored by parents? Are the child’s iCloud account being monitored by a parent no longer encrypted messages?
 
Just remember, having illegal images in one's possession applies to Apple as well as individuals.

They are simply putting measures in place to protect themselves (as well as others).

They manufacture the device, they have the right to have only their software installed on it (which you agree to when you buy it) including specific apps that everyone complains about and wishes they weren't defaulted on there in some cases... 🤣

You might as well be mad at them for forcing you to have cameras and microphones on there which could be used as tools to spy on you as well (and actually can and have been by hackers in the past).

While some tracked info CAN be opted out of and turned off, not everything can...and this is just one of them, but they have put security measures in place that make ME feel comfortable with it. You can disagree with me on that, but people jumping to the conclusion that this WILL be used to end the free world as we know it, need to calm down as this doesn't even come close to people truly spying on other people and honestly, is not even the easiest way to do it on an iPhone.
 
audiophilosophy said:
Someone please educate me: I thought iMessage was end-to-end encrypted. Is it not? Does the encryption only apply to accounts that are not monitored by parents? Are the child’s iCloud account being monitored by a parent no longer encrypted messages?
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The scanning/blurring/notification of the image happens on device after the text has been received.

This only applies to family accounts and where the user is under 13 years of age (although, I'm sure some parents will find a way around that).
 
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Apple_Robert said:
Do you want Apple to set policy based on their corporate morals? If so, there is no way to really hold them accountable much less expect true privacy and security.
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Apple pretty much based its brand on democratisation and privacy of computing devices. This is reneging on years of trust they had built up with the Apple community. I fail to understand why they can't see this, but I suspect they are trying to find functions for their new chips, which can do a lot more local processing than before. It's a shame they started with surveillance of their customers.
 
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jntdroid said:
Also, after going back and forth on this for the past few days, my brain keeps coming back to the idea that this might not help at all. It's essentially an opt out "feature" for those that do keep CSAM on their devices. Turn off iCloud Photos, and you have nothing to worry about. So I don't fully understand the heaps of praise that the NCMEC, Ashton Kutcher, etc., are placing on Apple. Honestly I'm a little surprised they haven't seen more "it's not enough" type of messages.
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In the very least, it allows Apple to confidently declare to law enforcement that they do not have CSAM on their cloud storage. I suspect it’s the first in a number of steps towards enabling encrypted iCloud storage while keeping the FBI off their backs.
 
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Mendota said:
Because Apple is invading your private device. The others are only monitoring their own clouds and servers.
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They are not "invading" anything...it is no different than any other iOS diagnostic tool they have on "your" phone as part of the software you agreed to when you bought the phone. Turn off iCloud Photos and the tool doesn't even check anything. No different than turning off any other "opt in" diagnostic tool they include in dozens of other areas of the phone.
 
lxmeta said:
Does the police need a judge court order so it can search your house, or are they allowed to search your house any time even without any suspicion. Any day, any time, without even telling you…
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Yes…they can…if my house is also the police station.

You invited them in the second you bought the phone and agreed to use only their operating system on it.

Stop comparing your phone to your house. A better comparison would be your car. It’s your personal property as well and you can keep illegal stuff in it…but if the police walk by and see that in the windows, they’ll arrest you. Sitting in your car and drinking alcohol is illegal in most cases…they can pull your butt out of there and arrest you for that as well, even if you aren’t driving.

Try explaining to the judge that being in your car and breaking law should be okay because you own the car, like it’s some sort of private island.
 
Just what we need in a nation that is supposed to be an example of right to privacy and all of the other items spelled out in the document that is the basis of our nations existence. Another mega corp. (Orwellian big brother) taking it upon themselves to violate what we are supposed to stand for as a people and a nation.
It was my intent to move to apple products exclusively due to the better than average stance on privacy and protection of personal data. Once a back door has been integrated in the OS it's over. More and more intrusive behavior may be integrated at any time and nobody will ever know. Apple has also put into serious question their defense of "we can't get it either because we don't have access or the encryption key" when pressured to release personal data.
You are not law enforcement Apple, let law enforcement do their job and require them to obtain warrants and to properly use the legal system. It is setup that way for a reason!

Linux is looking better and better!
 
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NeverConcede said:
Just what we need in a nation that is supposed to be an example of right to privacy and all of the other items spelled out in the document that is the basis of our nations existence. Another mega corp. (Orwellian big brother) taking it upon themselves to violate what we are supposed to stand for as a people and a nation.
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I’m pretty sure the vast majority of the people in this nation are against child pornography and Apple’s right to not be a part of that.

FYI…there is nothing in the document you reference about a private company being able to control the diagnostic tools on their product. It does give you the right not to purchase their product and use one of the thousand of other options out there. Unless you feel you have the RIGHT to use an iPhone due to all of the great apps and features it offers versus a burner phone with basic texting and phone call options?
 
I've given this a lot of thought and no matter how I look at it, we are FRAKKED. There is simply nowhere to go, and nothing we can do.

Aside from those that decide to go off-grid altogether, we're playing Russian roulette with our lives at this point.

If we live online in ANY way we accept the game, and hope that the bullet doesn't get to the chamber when the government pulls the trigger.

The way that politics around the world have been going, we're ALREADY living in a Black Mirror episode.

So I'm not going to worry about this anymore and file it along with all the rest of the crap that a non-white, foreign-born, English-as-a-second-language, middle/working class, non-American-sounding-name-having, non-religiously-devout, anarcho-lefty has had to worry about by merely existing in these United States already.
 
MozMan68 said:
They are not "invading" anything...it is no different than any other iOS diagnostic tool they have on "your" phone as part of the software you agreed to when you bought the phone. Turn off iCloud Photos and the tool doesn't even check anything. No different than turning off any other "opt in" diagnostic tool they include in dozens of other areas of the phone.
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It is very different than "diagnostic" tools. Those tools don't have any personal or direct connection to the user. This "tool" of Apple does. How else are they going to inform law enforcement?
 
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MozMan68 said:
They don’t…read into it…
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What does that even mean? And you are taking their word for all of this... I don't like or care for this self-serving stand. And this does not add up. Apple says: Just don't use iCloud and you won't be caught? Why would you tell the potential perps how not to get caught? What is the point then? I think that if the phone was found to be loaded with CP, Apple would indeed report it counting on the fact that the person caught would never really know how they were detected. They might think that they were caught in a sting of some sort. And even if they suspected Apple... how could they prove it? And who would care? After all few would have any sympathy.

The point is your personal devices should be like your home (your digital home). Just because you are not doing anything illegal in your home doesn't mean you want others looking in.
 
"if they can scan for kiddie porn today, they can scan for anything tomorrow."

A useless statement. If they can scan for kiddie porn tomorrow, and choose not to, they can scan for anything tomorrow.
 
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