Apple Publishes FAQ to Address Concerns About CSAM Detection and Messages Scanning

[MarvinK9]

How sad it is I grew up in a country in which the vast majority of the citizenry would've been horrified at the thought of such mass surveillance being perpetrated upon them, and now live in one where so many feel "If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about."

“Mass surveillance” has been common for a long time… it just gets more efficient.
I personally would prefer it to be open and known as opposed to hidden and secretive. But let’s face it , it will always be a bit of both.

We already know that the government will listen to our phone conversations or track our whereabouts without a warrant. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker)
Police officers will hide in the shadows and point radar guns at us. Security cameras are all over the place watching you walk down the street. (If not by the government, often just at the whim of some guy that installed a fancy doorbell.)

Have we ever had more than the illusion of privacy?

If we can use technology to stop what we as a society agree are crimes, and the only consequence is that a machine processed our photos, convince me why we shouldn’t do it without appealing to some hypothetical future abuse that could be done anyway simply without telling us.

And again, anyone who actually believes the scanning will stop by disabling iCloud is very naive. If the scanner discovers a phone it "thinks" is loaded with CP, you better believe that it will flag and report it.

That statement is just "made up". "There are no facts to support it." Do you have any evidence that Apple is not going to do exactly what they said they would do? If you think they are going to do something different, what does their announcement have to do with anything? They could be doing something different all along without telling you. If you were really concerned about privacy of this stuff you should have protested the second that portable communications devices were invented - after all they could be abused from the start. Just a regular non-smart phone can be used to track you. Your conversations could be spied on since the telephone was invented. But suddenly now that Apple tries to do something against CP you are complaining? Ridiculous.

Anyone that thinks this use of technology to detect these crimes can be prevented is very naive.

Apple's "one in a trillion" number is just made up. There are no facts to support it.

Similarly that very statement is "just made up". Do you have any facts to support your assertion that Apple "just made up" the one in a trillion number? I presume it was based on the likelihood of the hash for the known CP images matching a non CP image, but like you, I don't know either. The chances are probably *lower*.

 

[jseymour]

“Mass surveillance” has been common for a long time…

Fine, but I don't have to invite it onto my personal property--and won't.

 

[MarvinK9]

Fine, but I don't have to invite it onto my personal property--and won't.

You already have. Every time you turn on your mobile phone "they" know where you are. Apparently you've been okay with that so far. It's the cost of having that computer in your pocket. Society has always accepted restrictions of freedom in exchange for other benefits. This is no different.

 

[jseymour]

You already have. Every time you turn on your mobile phone "they" know where you are.

For the love of God. Knowing "where I am" is a far cry from being able to scan the files located on my device.

Are some of you really that oblivious to the scale of the difference? So in love with Apple products you'll find any excuse or explanation no matter how logically fallacious? Or just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Fine, you still trust Apple not to do what this software will clearly enable them to do. That's your choice. But if you have the faintest clue as to what's really happening you cannot reasonably equate "knows where you are" with "able to scan files on your device." The two capabilities are worlds apart.

 

[Tooldog]

Anyone posting here that is compensated while or for doing so should be aware that you must self identify. If you are an employee of a commercial organization that stands to sustain a gain or loss as a result of the conversation or that the conversation happens at all, you must self identify. The FTC has it all spelled out on their web site. Consumers don't fall under these rules.

I don't use my phone for work. Does Apple/Google/FB/Twitter/etc. have the "right" to rummage around in my data as they please? They do not. Does anyone else have the right to sift through my data? They do not. Will I knowingly give anyone permission to do that? I will not. Anyone who feels differently is free to publish their passwords or data at any time.

Unknowingly being searched is a special kind of violation of personal property. It may be the worst.

 

[JBGoode]

Apple says the odds of a false positive are “less than one in one trillion per year.” But with millions of customers who each have hundreds of photos, false positives could happen occasionally. So here’s what I would like to know: If I get a false positive and a human snoops and exonerates me, will I be informed that I was snooped on?

You have to have 30 “false positives” before anyone even checks. Assuming you don’t have 30 images of child porn on your phone, this will never happen. This entire process is essentially going to be invisible to everyone except the pedos with known child porn on their device ( and even they apparently can have 29 illegal images before anyone notices.)

 

[Tooldog]

@JBGoode I don't think this is the case because I don't believe Apple, who ignores everything but profit and Image, will adhere to anything they say. Its too easy for them to expand and extend. It could be the case, and likely is, that they have been sifting through data all along. They regularly change older operating systems to prevent them working on older Macs. They are in the business of selling products and anything they can do to increase those sales, or improve their brand Image, is what they will do. Its all about the money, they could care less about anyone as a person. EDIT: I think its a false narrative to say Apple Inc. has feelings.

 

[jseymour]

[Apple] are in the business of selling products and anything they can do to increase those sales, or improve their brand Image, is what they will do.

Somehow I hardly see them adding spyware to their devices and computers as promoting sales

I'll tell y'all this: The several people I've talked to over the last few days, when I appraised them of what Apple plans to do, were horrified. And most of them weren't techies.

 

[Tooldog]

@jseymour neither of us has evidence they do not add spyware which by its nature requires it to be "secret." When it becomes not secret is when it affects sales. In this case, they got in front of some security researchers who would have outed them. The press release is all about saving their Image.

 

[jseymour]

@jseymour neither of us has evidence they do not add spyware which by its nature requires it to be "secret."

Neither of us has evidence the do or have, either.

In this case, they got in front of some security researchers who would have outed them. The press release is all about saving their Image.

Yeah... they missed

 

[Tooldog]

Perhaps you misspoke. We do in fact have evidence they do and have. Its the topic of this entire thread.

 

[jseymour]

Perhaps you misspoke. We do in fact have evidence they do and have. Its the topic of this entire thread.

No, we're talking about what they plan to do, not what they have done.

 

[Tooldog]

Its nuanced in the language they have used, and omitted in some, but they "tested" it. No information directly from them how or what exactly they "tested." Let's just keep in mind they are a business for profit and protecting anyone from anything isn't in the charter. They are not our friends. Anything not profitable they don't do for long. They do not deserve our trust or adoration above the usefullness of their products. If stealing is profitable they will do that. If spying is profitable they will do that too. Profit is their sole reason for being.

 

[jseymour]

A realistic POV, @Tooldog

 

[Mendota]

“Mass surveillance” has been common for a long time… it just gets more efficient.
I personally would prefer it to be open and known as opposed to hidden and secretive. But let’s face it , it will always be a bit of both.

We already know that the government will listen to our phone conversations or track our whereabouts without a warrant. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker)
Police officers will hide in the shadows and point radar guns at us. Security cameras are all over the place watching you walk down the street. (If not by the government, often just at the whim of some guy that installed a fancy doorbell.)

Have we ever had more than the illusion of privacy?

If we can use technology to stop what we as a society agree are crimes, and the only consequence is that a machine processed our photos, convince me why we shouldn’t do it without appealing to some hypothetical future abuse that could be done anyway simply without telling us.


That statement is just "made up". "There are no facts to support it." Do you have any evidence that Apple is not going to do exactly what they said they would do? If you think they are going to do something different, what does their announcement have to do with anything? They could be doing something different all along without telling you. If you were really concerned about privacy of this stuff you should have protested the second that portable communications devices were invented - after all they could be abused from the start. Just a regular non-smart phone can be used to track you. Your conversations could be spied on since the telephone was invented. But suddenly now that Apple tries to do something against CP you are complaining? Ridiculous.

Anyone that thinks this use of technology to detect these crimes can be prevented is very naive.


Similarly that very statement is "just made up". Do you have any facts to support your assertion that Apple "just made up" the one in a trillion number? I presume it was based on the likelihood of the hash for the known CP images matching a non CP image, but like you, I don't know either. The chances are probably *lower*.

The only rebuttal you have to the points I have made is basically, "I trust Apple." Well... I don't. Apple has lied and deceived many times. The battery slow down, the keyboard fiasco, the app store, the spotlight issue, etc. So no, I don't just blindly trust Apple.

 

[MarvinK9]

Fine, you still trust Apple not to do what this software will clearly enable them to do.

So you are already convicting Apple of future crimes you think they are obviously *going to commit* ? Yeah, all you've said there is that we have reason not to trust *you*.

Anyone can write this software at any time *and not tell you about it* - all smartphones are already *enabled* to do this. They just need a little bit of software that isn't difficult to make. Apple's announcement, however poorly communicated, did more to gain my trust than lose it, regardless of whether I agree with implementing this feature.

The only rebuttal you have to the points I have made is basically, "I trust Apple." Well... I don't. Apple has lied and deceived many times. The battery slow down, the keyboard fiasco, the app store, the spotlight issue, etc. So no, I don't just blindly trust Apple.

If you don't trust you, don't trust, this feature hasn't changed anything.

The point I've been trying to make is that announcing this feature hasn't magically opened any door to abuse. The possibility of the imagined future abuse was already there, in all smartphone products by all manufacturers.

If stealing is profitable they will do that. If spying is profitable they will do that too. Profit is their sole reason for being.

The implication that anyone wanting to make a profit (which likely includes all of us) will ignore all rules of law is unfounded. Not everyone is a criminal, at least not to that extent.

 

[GBaughma]

People do realise that companies such as Google, Adobe, Facebook et. al already use some form of automated technology to scan for and detect CSAM? Adobe does it with Creative Cloud:

Child Safety

Adobe’s commitment to keeping children safe online and fighting the spread of child sexual abuse material.

www.adobe.com

That's just one example.

And that's fine. It would be expected that if I'm going to store something on someone else's computer, that it would be scanned for malware, and even CSAM images. That's because they own the server that I'm storing those files on.

Meanwhile, I BOUGHT my iPhone/iPad/etc. This is forced surveillance. There is no other word for it.

This is persecution of the many to ensure prosecution of the few. Apple's response of "Our system is designed only to scan for CSAM images" is hogwash. A simple "Security update" to IOS 15.1 or whatever will "security fix" that little issue when China wants to look for political dissidents. You'd never know it was happening, until the police were busting down your doors.

While I understand that the mere POSSESSION of CSAM images is illegal, it doesn't really help to capture the people who are creating those abusive situations, does it? To get into the CSAM database, it has to be something that was already discovered, and hashed, by the government. The system is broken to begin with. Not defending pedos in any way, but I fail to understand how possessing an image makes someone a sex offender.

Apple is a technology company; they are not law enforcement. What they are doing is, in my opinion, illegal searches in violation of the 4th amendment (which they get around by having you agree to an EULA, which you have to agree to in order to continue using the equipment that you PURCHASED, which IMHO isn't an option; you have to agree to it, or your crap stops working after a while... so it's entrapment.)

I'd be very interested in knowing some legal opinions on how we're coerced into an EULA which waives our 4th amendment rights regarding search.

 

[GBaughma]

So you are already convicting Apple of future crimes you think they are obviously *going to commit* ?

Like Apple is scanning our photos just in case someone out there has an image that is illegal to possess?

Do you see the irony of your statement there? Apple is assuming OUR guilt, and is acting as an investigator and mandatory reporter, by violating our right to privacy and violating the 4th amendment regarding unwarranted search without cause.

 

[GBaughma]

Will I knowingly give anyone permission to do that? I will not.

But you will. When you click "Agree" to the EULA. Or eventually, your apps will stop working as they demand to run on ios15 or greater.

 

[GBaughma]

Apple doesn’t inform law enforcement.

Ummm... yes, they will. That's kind of the point of this whole thing.

 

[GBaughma]

Probable cause does not pertain to Apple as Apple is not a representative of law enforcement nor is Apple acting as an agent for the state or federal government.

If Apple is not acting as an agent for law enforcement, then it seems to me that they are breaking even more privacy laws; hacking perhaps. Invasion of privacy.

Just as a person (not law enforcement) wouldn't be allowed to walk in and search your home (they couldn't even get a warrant without being law enforcement), Apple shouldn't be given permission to just peruse your files at their leisure.

I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV), but I really think that the lawyers at the EFF and even the ACLU need to tap in on this.

 

[jseymour]

So you are already convicting Apple of future crimes you think they are obviously *going to commit* ?

Reading is fundamental. Reading comprehension equally so. You need to work on the latter. Unless you meant to put words in my mouth, in which case...

Yeah, all you've said there is that we have reason not to trust *you*.

Pot: Meet kettle.

Anyone can write this software at any time *and not tell you about it* - all smartphones are already *enabled* to do this.

Until somebody figured out what they were doing and outed them. As noted by somebody else: Apple almost certainly made this announcement when they did to beat getting outed.

ETA: Oh ohhh... may have been too late for that. Looks like maybe Apple lied, has been caught, and outed: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...m.2307591/page-17?post=30187162#post-30187162

They just need a little bit of software that isn't difficult to make.

Really? And you've been writing software in a production environment for how many years?

 

[MozMan68]

Ummm... yes, they will. That's kind of the point of this whole thing.

Your reading comprehension is a little off....Apple does NOT inform law enforcement. They simply notify the NCMEC of the flagged accounts an images. It is the NCMEC that investigates and involves law enforcement if appropriate as they do with all incidents reported to them for the past 20+ years.

I repeat, Apple has NO direct contact with any law enforcement agency or government agency.

 

[GBaughma]

Your reading comprehension is a little off....Apple does NOT inform law enforcement. They simply notify the NCMEC of the flagged accounts an images. It is the NCMEC that investigates and involves law enforcement if appropriate as they do with all incidents reported to them for the past 20+ years.

I repeat, Apple has NO direct contact with any law enforcement agency or government agency.

This is directly from Apple's announcement on their site.
"CSAM detection will help Apple provide valuable information to law enforcement on collections of CSAM in iCloud Photos."

TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.
I went directly to apple's site and read their announcement.

 

[GBaughma]

This is directly from Apple's announcement on their site.
"CSAM detection will help Apple provide valuable information to law enforcement on collections of CSAM in iCloud Photos."

TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.
I went directly to apple's site and read their announcement.

Third paragraph, on this page.

Child Safety

Expanded Protections for Children

www.apple.com