Apple Publishes FAQ to Address Concerns About CSAM Detection and Messages Scanning

[turbineseaplane]

"if they can scan for kiddie porn today, they can scan for anything tomorrow."

A useless statement. If they can scan for kiddie porn tomorrow, and choose not to, they can scan for anything tomorrow.

As Ben Thompson pointed out so well at Stratechery, to echo your thoughts..

Once they've built in the capability on the devices to do this scanning, all that's holding it back from happening is Apple Policy..

That scares many folks, because "policy" is so easily changed (or even covertly forced by agencies, governments, authoritarian regimes).

You are right though... Policy is all that holds it back from expanding.
Thats' why so many are very worried.

 

[MozMan68]

What does that even mean? And you are taking their word for all of this... I don't like or care for this self-serving stand. And this does not add up. Apple says: Just don't use iCloud and you won't be caught? Why would you tell the potential perps how not to get caught? What is the point then? I think that if the phone was found to be loaded with CP, Apple would indeed report it counting on the fact that the person caught would never really know how they were detected. They might think that they were caught in a sting of some sort. And even if they suspected Apple... how could they prove it? And who would care? After all few would have any sympathy.

The point is your personal devices should be like your home (your digital home). Just because you are not doing anything illegal in your home doesn't mean you want others looking in.

Apple doesn’t inform law enforcement.

 

[Mendota]

Apple doesn’t inform law enforcement.

Okay... They inform the group that will then inform law enforcement. If not, what would be the point?

 

[Mendota]

For those of you in this thread who are frustrated by Apple's actions, what's next?
Have you already disabled iCloud? Switching to Linux? Buying a PinePhone

Curious about actions others are taking.

For myself, since Apple is not my primary system, and I have nothing important stored on Apple devices or iCloud, I will keep on using the products and update because it will not impact me in any significant way. Just as I use Gmail for commerce, and casual mail, and use Outlook for things that are important. I would never use Google Drive because they state that what is on there could be used or viewed by them. I am not doing anything illegal, but my computers and devices are mine. I don't want to be searched through there any more than I would want someone snooping through my house.

And for those who blindly trust Apple... because they wouldn't lie?!!! They lie when they say that the App store policy is to "protect" you. No, it is to maximize their profits... They lied when they said that there was nothing wrong with their ill-fated butterfly keyboards (and instructed their employees to lie). There are many instances where they have been less than transparent. So no I don't just trust Apple.

 

[turbineseaplane]

The comments on this article have a lot of really good and interesting viewpoints and even further concerns.

Really worth the time to check it out.

Scanning 'private' content

Child pornography and other types of sexual abuse of children are unquestionably heinous crimes [...]

lwn.net

 

[MozMan68]

The comments on this article have a lot of really good and interesting viewpoints and even further concerns.

Really worth the time to check it out.

Scanning 'private' content

Child pornography and other types of sexual abuse of children are unquestionably heinous crimes [...]

lwn.net

I didn’t see anything new…but they actually do bring up one point that no one on here seems to be yelling about. What about the iMessage specific filtering and how that might be abused.

It seems that a controlling spouse could quite easily set up their partners phone as part of the family account, mark them as underage in their account and get notified if they are receiving nude images.

They also focus on the EU side of things which seems much worse from a regulatory standpoint than the US which has nothing to do with Apple as the governments in the Eau can force any message service to scan for images they deem unacceptable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

What about the iMessage specific filtering and how that might be abused.

I can’t speak for everybody but I have absolutely mentioned that in a few posts.
I am not happy about it whatsoever.

 

[MozMan68]

I can’t speak for everybody but I have absolutely mentioned that in a few posts.
I am not happy about it whatsoever.

Which is worse? The on device iMessage scanning or the CSAM database image tagging?

 

[mw360]

I didn’t see anything new…but they actually do bring up one point that no one on here seems to be yelling about. What about the iMessage specific filtering and how that might be abused.

It seems that a controlling spouse could quite easily set up their partners phone as part of the family account, mark them as underage in their account and get notified if they are receiving nude images.

Like most things people are ‘yelling’ about, this is addressed in the widely unread FAQ mentioned in the headline of the article and the scheme you’re referring to won’t work. And like most other people, you’ll now keep your outrage alive by proposing other functionality that doesn’t exist but which would be ‘easy to add’.

”When a child account sends or receives sexually explicit images, the photo will be blurred and the child will be warned, presented with helpful resources, and reassured it is okay if they do not want to view or send the photo. As an additional precaution, young children can also be told that, to make sure they are safe, their parents will get a message if they do view it.”

 

[MozMan68]

Like most things people are ‘yelling’ about, this is addressed in the widely unread FAQ mentioned in the headline of the article and the scheme you’re referring to won’t work. And like most other people, you’ll now keep your outrage alive by proposing other functionality that doesn’t exist but which would be ‘easy to add’.

”When a child account sends or receives sexually explicit images, the photo will be blurred and the child will be warned, presented with helpful resources, and reassured it is okay if they do not want to view or send the photo. As an additional precaution, young children can also be told that, to make sure they are safe, their parents will get a message if they do view it.”

I’m not outraged at all.

I’m just as confused as you as to how people are so upset about the database being used like Apple already does today with other images.

The iMessage feature though is different and is even more invasive in the fact that it uses a.I. to detect any seemingly “bad” picture like nudes being sent through that service.

While all the worriers on here are freaking out about a highly secure feature designed to catch pedophiles, Apple has added a feature that while unlikely, could be much easier to abuse by the average person.

I can’t understand why either wouldn’t be applauded as efforts to protect kids from creeps.

And I don’t buy the “they are illegally searching my phone without a warrant argument” so many on here want to throw out.

 

[mw360]

I’m not outraged at all.

I’m just as confused as you as to how people are so upset about the database being used like Apple already does today with other images.

The iMessage feature though is different and is even more invasive in the fact that it uses a.I. to detect any seemingly “bad” picture like nudes being sent through that service.

While all the worriers on here are freaking out about a highly secure feature designed to catch pedophiles, Apple has added a feature that while unlikely, could be much easier to abuse by the average person.

I can’t understand why either wouldn’t be applauded as efforts to protect kids from creeps.

And I don’t buy the “they are illegally searching my phone without a warrant argument” so many on here want to throw out.

Fair enough. I misread you. The extension of that, is that Photos already scans and interprets every image we import or take with our own camera. That was ripe for abuse, yet Apple didn’t abuse it, and instead developed these additional very focussed, limited features that seem to have a good answer for all the but the most emotional or philosophical complaints.

 

[MarvinK9]

You are right though... Policy is all that holds it back from expanding.
Thats' why so many are very worried.

I think you missed my point. The fact that they can scan for anything is already established by the fact that this feature could be developed at all… so what is the point of saying that “if they can do this today, they can do something worse tomorrow”? They can do something worse tomorrow anyway, what does doing this have to do with it? The tech to scan images is already done, has been for years. They aren’t making a back door that allows others to scan for some other kind of images. The screaming that this is screwing over user’s privacy is strange. Yes they are violating your right to privately have child porn. Except, you never had any right to privately own child porn. They aren’t violating any right to have any other kind of images, and to say ”well they could do that in the future“ is silly, of course they could do it in the future, just like last year they could have done THIS in the future. Actually developing this now has not opened some door that couldn’t have been opened before, so what is the actual complaint? Some government could ask them to scan for political info? That government didn’t have to wait for this feature to ask that! There is no increased risk of that happening.

 

[Mendota]

The scanning that is being done to recognize faces etc., is nothing more than a feature of the photo software. It is built into a lot of photo editing software to include Photoshop. That in no way has anything to do with surveillance. It amazes me the lengths that people are going to, to try and claim that Apple isn't doing what they are planning to do. They are putting "spyware" on your phone to monitor you. And your only recourse is to disable key systems, designed to work together (the reason many purchased Apple products), crippling the device in order to not be spied on.

 

[lxmeta]

Yes…they can…if my house is also the police station.

You invited them in the second you bought the phone and agreed to use only their operating system on it.

Stop comparing your phone to your house. A better comparison would be your car. It’s your personal property as well and you can keep illegal stuff in it…but if the police walk by and see that in the windows, they’ll arrest you. Sitting in your car and drinking alcohol is illegal in most cases…they can pull your butt out of there and arrest you for that as well, even if you aren’t driving.

Try explaining to the judge that being in your car and breaking law should be okay because you own the car, like it’s some sort of private island.

Apple is not the law enforcement.
Is anyone scanning all locations you visited with the car for potential meetings with drug dealers? Any automatic speed limit violation enforcements? Any automatic scanning of conversations you have in your car for possible violations? Checking the sensors and cameras in your car for other traffic violations?
As stupid car analogies usually are, in this case it did not serve your case!

 

[jseymour]

It amazes me the lengths that people are going to, to try and claim that Apple isn't doing what they are planning to do. They are putting "spyware" on your phone to monitor you. And your only recourse is to disable key systems, designed to work together (the reason many purchased Apple products), crippling the device in order to not be spied on.

This ^^^^^

A little over four years ago my wife and I switched from the Android ecosystem to Apple. This was mostly driven by my feeling that Google was not to be trusted. (That feeling hasn't changed.) As time went on we, particularly me, became increasingly enamored of Apple products. When Apple told the U.S. government "No, we cannot help you break into an iPhone, and wouldn't if we could," I was so impressed I lost all concerns about privacy in using Apple products. So trusting of Apple had I become I was recently considering buying some Apple HomePods. We have Apple phones, tablets, watch, AirPods, and Apple TV streamers. This fall or winter I'd planned to replace our aging desktops with a pair of Macs. Soon I was due for an iPad upgrade.

As recently as ten days ago I was standing in chest-deep water in a local lake, proudly showing off to friends how I could make a phone call with my Apple Watch from right there.

That all changed when, the next day, my wife said "I just saw on the news Apple is going to be installing child pornography scanning software on their phones and tablets." "No way," I replied, "There's no way Apple would do such a thing."

Except it turned out they would. "Shocked" doesn't even begin to describe my reaction.

Since then our phones, tablets, and ATVs have had all data-sharing with Apple disabled--diagnostics and all. All home automation has been removed from HomeKit. Siri has been completely disabled on everything and the histories cleared. My iCloud storage has been reduced to about 1GB - nearly everything other than automated backups removed. Soon, iCloud storage for everything but backups will be disabled entirely. My Apple Watch now sits in a drawer, turned off. I expect I'll be putting it up for sale before much longer. (I'm really going to miss that watch .) This morning I deleted all Health data. My Apple Card will be cancelled tomorrow, after which my Apple Cash will be transferred to our checking account, then I'll remove my other credit cards from Apple Pay.

We will not be purchasing any Mac computers. Instead I'll acquire commodity PC hardware and install Linux upon it. My iPad will not be upgraded to a new iPad, but will be replaced with an Android tablet. My iPhone, when either it or the last iOS 14 release gets too old, will be replaced with an Android phone. (I'll let my wife decide what she wants to do with her iThings, but she will probably eventually follow me.) There will be no Apple Listening Devices in our home.

(We'll probably keep the Apple TVs, but I'll eventually sandbox them on my network so they're limited in what they can "see.")

Apple has lost my trust. And my future business.

It's unlikely they can get either back. Even if they don't follow-through with their plans, the fact they even considered doing what they have has pretty much destroyed my faith in them.

Btw: I'm not doing all this because I don't understand what they plan to do. I'm a retired IT guy with extensive experience in software design (from kernel drivers to applications UIs). No, I'm doing this because I understand exactly what they're doing and find it repugnant.

 

[MarvinK9]

How long before USA and/or China demands Apple to start scanning for content other than CSAM on all iPhones (not just the ones with iCloud Photo Library enabled), or they would not be allowed to sell devices in those markets? These two countries represents two-thirds of Apple's revenue and therefore have a lot of leverage on the company.

What nobody seems to be understanding is that these countries could demand this at any time BEFORE Apple proposed this feature. The tech to do image recognition isn’t *that* new, and matching hashes is simpler.

This feature has NOT enabled what everyone seems to be afraid of. That happened a long time ago, and everyone is using the tech behind it.

As for Apple scanning pics that is about to be uploaded to iCloud, I have NO problem with it. I presume it is illegal for Apple to be storing child porn images on iCloud servers, they have a responsibility to do this if they can.

 

[Mendota]

What nobody seems to be understanding is that these countries could demand this at any time BEFORE Apple proposed this feature. The tech to do image recognition isn’t *that* new, and matching hashes is simpler.

This feature has NOT enabled what everyone seems to be afraid of. That happened a long time ago, and everyone is using the tech behind it.

As for Apple scanning pics that is about to be uploaded to iCloud, I have NO problem with it. I presume it is illegal for Apple to be storing child porn images on iCloud servers, they have a responsibility to do this if they can.

As many others have stated, they have every right to scan their own clouds and servers. BUT they do not need to install spyware on your personal devices to do it. This is about invasion of privacy and control under the banner of: "The possible ends justify the means." And the self-serving statement made by the missing children organization only makes it worse. And again, anyone who actually believes the scanning will stop by disabling iCloud is very naive. If the scanner discovers a phone it "thinks" is loaded with CP, you better believe that it will flag and report it. After all, if you are talking about protecting missing children, flagging photos taken 10 or 20 years ago does nothing for the present. How do you think they gather new information? Now Apple is on the team.

It creates a layer of anxiety for the user. Let me give an example... A few days ago, on I came upon a post from Redditt from a woman asking advice about a relationship. Should I stay or should I go? It turned out she came home early to find her SO, engaging is a particular "kink" while filming himself. While it was disgusting, it was not illegal. He was doing it for his own benefit on his own device. Setting aside his girlfriend's shock... Imagine having to worry and wonder if possibly the nudity was being flagged and sent on for inspection?...

Apple's "one in a trillion" number is just made up. There are no facts to support it.

 

[jseymour]

And again, anyone who actually believes the scanning will stop by disabling iCloud is very naive.

Or that it's going to end with looking for CSAM. Apple's promises ring hollow, being as they've just broken a really, really big one.

Besides, the argument that, if you want to avoid it, just disable iCloud, is disingenuous. A big part of the Apple experience is the "it just works" and the integration between devices. Take away iCloud and much of that simply goes away--greatly reducing the value proposition.

 

[RedRage]

Months ago during the Epic trial - "If you want to side load or have different app stores go to Android! We like our privacy on iOS. Side loading will open up the gates to all kinds of bad things we don't want on our phones. We like it secure and private"

Now - "They all do it! I'm still upgrading to iPhone 13" lol

Apple never cared about your privacy. They were just better at lying about it.

 

[SegNerd]

Apple says the odds of a false positive are “less than one in one trillion per year.” But with millions of customers who each have hundreds of photos, false positives could happen occasionally. So here’s what I would like to know: If I get a false positive and a human snoops and exonerates me, will I be informed that I was snooped on?

 

[MarvinK9]

As many others have stated, they have every right to scan their own clouds and servers. BUT they do not need to install spyware on your personal devices to do it.

But that is precisely what Apple has always stated they won’t do because of privacy. They do processing on your device so the data involved stays on your device. They are supposed to be encrypting the data in iCloud so it is protected - meaning they CAN’T read the pictures on their servers because they don’t have the decryption key. They need your password to unlock the data.

If they only scan photos that are about to be uploaded to iCloud, what is the difference? Other than them never having the illegal images on storage they control - as they have every right to do.

Apple has entirely lost my trust. And my future business.

It’s going to suck not using any technology in the future.

The tech is here, you can’t stop it. You‘re going to have to deal with the consequences regardless.

It’s really ironic that the same people that don’t want to be accused or suspected of crimes they haven’t committed are condemning Apple for future crimes that they have also not committed, just because it is possible that they could commit them eventually (and has been before the introduction of this feature).

Should you care if a machine “sees” your photos and then does nothing?
Would you change your mind if a warrant was needed before a person could review the photos, after a machine identified several images as “probably cause” for a search?
Why shouldn’t technology be allowed to assist law enforcement in this way?

 

[jseymour]

It’s going to suck not using any technology in the future.

The tech is here, you can’t stop it. You‘re going to have to deal with the consequences regardless.

Why shouldn’t technology be allowed to assist law enforcement in this way?

Re: "It's going to suck...": Not really. I got along without it before. I can get along just fine without it again.

Re: "The tech is here, you can't stop it.": Hold my beer and watch this (Hint: Apple, Google, and Microsoft aren't the only games in town.)

Re: "Why shouldn't technology...": How sad it is I grew up in a country in which the vast majority of the citizenry would've been horrified at the thought of such mass surveillance being perpetrated upon them, and now live in one where so many feel "If you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about."

I'm so glad I was born when I was. The way things are going I don't think I'm going to regret departing when my time comes.

 

[AstonSmith]

Why shouldn’t technology be allowed to assist law enforcement in this way?

Because I'm paying for the resources it's using.

Why should I have to surrender my device's performance, memory and battery just because Apple, "law enforcement" or whomever wants to know if I have anything bad stored on it?

 

[MarvinK9]

Because I'm paying for the resources it's using.

Why should I have to surrender my device's performance, memory and battery just because Apple, "law enforcement" or whomever wants to know if I have anything bad stored on it?

Of course your are. As a tax payer you are paying for the law enforcement as well 😱.

Why should you ever have to pull over for the police if it inconveniences you?

Why should you give up your right-of way to let an ambulance by?

Why should your battery get used to receive emergency notices of abducted children when you probably haven’t seen them anyway?

Oh the horror of it all!

 

[Tooldog]

No due process. Guilty until proven innocent. Just because you aren't a criminal today doesn't mean what you do with and around your iphone doesn't become a crime tomorrow. Apple will have whatever information you give them to prove you are a criminal. Apple isn't the only one doing this, but their explicit claims of not doing exactly this is why people will dump them. What is keeping them from selling your information to the highest bidder? You can't trust them to do anything except what makes them the largest profits. Never give up what you can't get back without bloodshed.