Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?

[Popeye206]

But it IS NOT the flagship product !

The iPhone is.

So everyone needs to ask yourself this:

You own a car company and sell a stand-alone GPS unit. That Unit is bought by everyone else who owns different cars then the one you sell.

It becomes your #1 Item and the Idea of a flagship product becomes that product.

Sure,..your car company still makes engines for other machines ....

But are you going to stop making your best car because all of a sudden your cheapest product becomes SO successful that ANYONE can buy it??

NO !

It makes no sense !

So CHILL everyone ! The Mac Pro will still be around ........For those who can AFFORD it !

Wow... I sort of have to agree with you!

Really... it would seem unlikely that Apple would kill the Pro line. Although I know in graphics, publishing and printing, iMacs and even the Mini are more than able to do the work these days. Video production seems to be the real application anymore for the Mac Pro.

 

[AppliedMicro]

If Apple disscontinue the Mac Pro without replacing it with a new high-end machine I will throw Logic and Apple out the door and get a PC with Pro Tools HDX, that goes for the rest of the pro audio marked and mosy of the "prosumers" as well

We'll come back to that statement when/if Apple actually discontinues the Mac Pro line.

It would be just an absurd an absurd overreaction for most people invested in Logic to drop Apple altogether. Especially from a hardware standpoint. Though there might a danger from a software standpoint, i.e., in Apple "dumbing down" Logic to a prosumer product.

People telling us what we need and not. Who needs 4TB storage and overkill CPUs? Well, I'm not into the video/3D field. But I can tell you that those of us working with music/audio/ sound design etc. needs it!

I cannot tell you, what you need. I do, however, have a picture, of what most people need and actually buy. Music/audio professionals are a niche for Apple nowadays. And I can see Apple clearly not giving a ***** about several of their niche markets and customers' needs (Xserve, Server, PPC applications and backwards compatibility with older software)... They are strongly focusing on their mobile devices.

Incidentally, I know several people who work in music/audio, including a guy with a recording studio. He just replaced his machines with iMacs and couldn't be happier.

 

[irobot2003]

The Mac Pro serves a different market than the iMac, so saying it is not price competitive seems off point...

I actually don't know how big the workstation market is these days... I imagine it's smaller than consumer or low to mid range desktops, but that's just a semi-educated guess.

HP & Dell do still make workstations comparable to the Mac Pro, so I'm thinking the market can't be all that miniscule. What markets do workstations serve? Content creation, R&D in government, academia, and industry, and home power users/hobbyists.

One probably could offload most of what one uses a workstation for to the cloud, but I, and I imagine others, like to maintain a little more control/independence over my computing resources.

[...]

The Mac Pro [...]
it's hardly competitive in price to Apple's own iMac line anymore.
...unless (I repeat myself) you absolutely need the Mac Pro's expandability.
...which (I repeat myself again) only a small minority needs.

The Mac Pro is competing (and might be competitive) in its small niche - a niche that I wouldn't be sure whether Apple still wants to compete in...

 

[Eidorian]

ASRock is going to have a Micro ATX LGA 2011 board. I want a Micro ATX system but the available cases are just not to my liking.

Maybe Dell will have a Micro ATX Xeon LGA 2011 system somewhat like the Studio XPS 435MT was for Nehalem. Well using Xeon processors of course and on the workstation/enthusiast socket.

 

[iBug2]

Memory: Standard Intel doesn't support ECC memory - only Xeons.

I have one thing to say about ECC memory. I have used a Mac Pro since 2006, and probably had less than 10 ECC errors corrected in 5 years of time. I really don't seem the point of ECC. 10 more crashes in 5 years would be ok.

 

[gugy]

Really? The applications used in our studio are Illustrator, In Design, and sometimes Photoshop. Neither In Design or Illustrator can take advantage of 4+ cores nor the GPU. So they will run the same speed on a Mac mini as they do on a 12 Core Mac Pro.

The only applications in that studio which would utilize a Mac Pro is Photoshop, and only when certain filters/plugins are used. And those type of Photoshop stuff is not done much in our studio, so it'd be useless. They mostly use Photoshop to airbrush and clean up. No processor heavy plugins are used.

So maybe the jokes on you.

Now I see, If you talk with any professional relying in tools like After Effects, Logic, variety of 3D software for animation, FCP, Avid etc
These folks would rather not use an iMac if they had a choice of a MacPro.

 

[Mr. Gates]

Highly doubtful this will happen. It is probably a redesign in the works. Relax people, there's no way Apple is going to opt out of the professional market just because the macbook air will potentially be their #1 profit in computing in the future.

Yup !

It would be like a kid chasing candy all day and then forgetting where they live.

I would hope Apple is smarter then that

 

[Bubba Satori]

Tried skimming through all the posts as fast as I can.

It seems that most Mac Pro users want a customizable desktop that runs Mac OS. It seems the 4 HD bays is not negotiable. The ability to hook up your choice of display(s). And an upgradeable processor and graphic card (I doubt these things Apple will allow).

If you were a designer working for Apple, how would you redesign the Mac Pro?
AND make it a viable commercial product?

Offer a complete line of i7 and Xeon bto towers and slap a $500 Apple sticker on them.
They'd sell like hotcakes and still have decent margins on them.
When do I go to work, Apple?

 

[wiz329]

Quite down the road? Intel promised that in couple years it'll jump to 100mbit and soon to Gbit, as far as I can remember. They said that it's very easy to implement higher speeds due to the design.

i'm pretty sure its already at 10 Gb/s current, and they want to push it to 100 Gb/s in the future using optical cords. Currently they only use copper, because they are having problems with the optical connections. Either way, the technology isn't even here yet, let alone implemented.
Keep the mac pro =)

 

[iBug2]

You used the example of your father.

Sorry man, nothing personal but I am a veteran designer on the TV and film industry and like I told you, worked in several studios from small to large ones in few large markets across US.
MacPro is heavily used on these companies. iMacs are growing in acceptance due their increasing power but the lack of expandability and AIO solution is NOT the machine of choice for folks that heavily depend on major software applications to create media content across a variety of industries.
If you want to think otherwise, then I will not try to change your mind.

Maybe look at the sales numbers? Desktop Macs, 4.5 million in 2011. Mac Pro's, at most 5 digit numbers, mostly 4 digit. So assuming they are 4 digits, they are around 0.1% of all desktop sales. If you assume that half the desktop sales go to professional use, then you have other desktops having 500 times the user base than Mac Pro in the pro market.

Assume the most optimistic scenario, that Mac Pro sales are in 5 figures. Then it's around 1% of all desktop sales, so again assuming half the desktop sales go to professional use, iMac+mini are 50 times higher than Mac Pro in pro market space.

I didn't give my fathers design studio as an example to support the overall picture. I gave it to shut up the idiots who think all design studios need a Mac Pro.

The big picture is in the numbers.

 

[ucantgetridofme]

Offer a cheaper version with a single Core i7, it will sell like crazy... But still offer an 8-/12-core for the professionals who need one.

I own a 2009 8-core now, but it's overkill for me. A Core i7 version would be perfect.

Wtf is a single core i7? Are you trying to say single cpu? If so they already have that. You're proof that the typical mac Apple fan needs nothing more than an ipad for their computing needs. You wouldn't know what to do with a real computer.

 

[iBug2]

i'm pretty sure its already at 10 Gb/s current, and they want to push it to 100 Gb/s in the future using optical cords. Currently they only use copper, because they are having problems with the optical connections. Either way, the technology isn't even here yet, let alone implemented.
Keep the mac pro =)

Future = couple years they said. And no, they are not having problems with optical connections. It's just too expensive. The tech is there. The first TB demo 2 years ago was done using optical 100mbit speed.

 

[MSlaw]

I doubt they'd continue offering any kind of server software, then discontinue the mac pro.

 

[macpeach55]

But i DO use full screen with multiple monitors. Or at least I used to -- for applications that allowed it (quicktime for example). Now I use VLC for anything I need full screen.
It works just fine with applications who don't use Lion's UI for full screen -- ie moving to a completely new space or desktop or whatever its called. The problem is, with more and more applications using Lion's full screen UI, it doesn't work.

Ok, that is clear and I can now fully understand your frustration with this.

But does that really make Lion a total failure?

 

[iBug2]

Now I see, If you talk with any professional relying in tools like After Effects, Logic, variety of 3D software for animation, FCP, Avid etc
These folks would rather not use an iMac if they had a choice of a MacPro.

Surely. I just gave our studio as an example to shut up the ignorants who think all design studios need a Mac Pro.

That being said, most Logic work can be done even on laptops. I know several professional artists who use nothing other than their MacBook Pro to do all their audio production. There are areas where one definitely needs a Mac Pro in music production certainly, but limited.

 

[wikus]

Really? The applications used in our studio are Illustrator, In Design, and sometimes Photoshop. Neither In Design or Illustrator can take advantage of 4+ cores nor the GPU. So they will run the same speed on a Mac mini as they do on a 12 Core Mac Pro.

The only applications in that studio which would utilize a Mac Pro is Photoshop, and only when certain filters/plugins are used. And those type of Photoshop stuff is not done much in our studio, so it'd be useless. They mostly use Photoshop to airbrush and clean up. No processor heavy plugins are used.

So maybe the jokes on you.

I don't work for your dad.

Luckily though, I have both a Mac Pro and a MacBook Pro (which am now using hooked up via TB to my 24" LCD). The last job I worked had an iMac I was forced to use, so I can give an honest opinion on all the solutions as ive been exposed to a lot in my time. Let me tell you from the perspective of a professional;

The iMac in a studio environment was the least pleasant experience on any machine I've worked on. The screen was crap to the point my ditzy coworker used as a mirror, the graphics card inside was the equivalent garbage to that of a mobile gpu forced into a desktop where it has no godly place being, I could not install a secondary hard drive for greater storage of files and when working on intensive documents, regardless of being in photoshop or not, it was a slow tragedy. And if you think Indesign doesnt require a good computer, you might want to talk to your dad about CS5, its by far the worst piece of software in the entire Creative Suite there is. I don't mean that by functionality, I mean that in performance.

 

[fs454]

Do they really expect places like Pixar to set up a room full of iMacs to do their rendering as they currently do with Mac Pros? All those screens.


There is no way this is happening.

 

[wiz329]

TB is PCI if it can be done via PCI it can be done via TB it just hasn't yet. The current iMac has two TB ports which is the equivalent of PCIe x 8. You put 4 on there and you would have the equivalent bandwidth of PCIe x 16. TB can pretty easily replace everything PCI does. You may not like it that way, but it could.

Correct. TB really IS PCIe. truly external in fact. I believe the current mac pro has 1x16 and 2x4. First, I don't think the iMac would ever have 4 TB ports.

And you are also right that I don't like it that way. I don't think anyone wants to have their graphics cards, storage, RAM, and everything else hooked up on the outside.

Do they really expect places like Pixar to set up a room full of iMacs to do their rendering as they currently do with Mac Pros? All those screens.


There is no way this is happening.

Pixar doesn't use macs.

Ok, that is clear and I can now fully understand your frustration with this.

But does that really make Lion a total failure?

Not a complete failure. I have it, and I use it (although I have considered going back to SL multiple times). Its just not as good as it could have been, by a long shot.

 

[AppliedMicro]

This would effectively end pro app development for mac os x. If software vendors are going to be limited to mac mini processing power or iMac screen restraints, then software devs will no longer pay and invest in the os x platform.

What "screen restraints"?
The iMac can handle not one but two 30" external displays.

You own a car company and sell a stand-alone GPS unit. That Unit is bought by everyone else who owns different cars then the one you sell.
It becomes your #1 Item and the Idea of a flagship product becomes that product.
Sure,..your car company still makes engines for other machines ....
But are you going to stop making your best car because all of a sudden your cheapest product becomes SO successful that ANYONE can buy it??
NO !
It makes no sense !

Nokia used to be a big name (at least on a national level) in producing "paper products, car and bicycle tires, footwear (including rubber boots)" and some other things...

 

[MSlaw]

Actually now that I think about it, a lot of new APIs in OS X pertain to multiple graphics cards also. How to offload work onto a card that is not being used for display, etc.

*Edit.
This was from last years developer conference.

 

[gugy]

Maybe look at the sales numbers? Desktop Macs, 4.5 million in 2011. Mac Pro's, at most 5 digit numbers, mostly 4 digit. So assuming they are 4 digits, they are around 0.1% of all desktop sales. If you assume that half the desktop sales go to professional use, then you have other desktops having 500 times the user base than Mac Pro in the pro market.

Assume the most optimistic scenario, that Mac Pro sales are in 5 figures. Then it's around 1% of all desktop sales, so again assuming half the desktop sales go to professional use, iMac+mini are 50 times higher than Mac Pro in pro market space.

I didn't give my fathers design studio as an example to support the overall picture. I gave it to shut up the idiots who think all design studios need a Mac Pro.

The big picture is in the numbers.

Look beyond profits. Apple understands there is an industries that create content for their iToys out there. If you don't understand that then I give up.
As for you father studio, I would recommend you look beyond that. There are many other places that do rely on software that actually demand way more power than an iMac.
Cheers bro.

 

[macpeach55]

Maybe look at the sales numbers? Desktop Macs, 4.5 million in 2011. Mac Pro's, at most 5 digit numbers, mostly 4 digit. So assuming they are 4 digits, they are around 0.1% of all desktop sales. If you assume that half the desktop sales go to professional use, then you have other desktops having 500 times the user base than Mac Pro in the pro market.

Assume the most optimistic scenario, that Mac Pro sales are in 5 figures. Then it's around 1% of all desktop sales, so again assuming half the desktop sales go to professional use, iMac+mini are 50 times higher than Mac Pro in pro market space.

I didn't give my fathers design studio as an example to support the overall picture. I gave it to shut up the idiots who think all design studios need a Mac Pro.

The big picture is in the numbers.

Not always. If you want to keep control of an area, even if you lose money on it, and your company can afford to support that area from other sales, then sometimes it makes sense to hang in there

 

[Umbongo]

I have one thing to say about ECC memory. I have used a Mac Pro since 2006, and probably had less than 10 ECC errors corrected in 5 years of time. I really don't seem the point of ECC. 10 more crashes in 5 years would be ok.

For your usage, for most peoples on these forums too. Not for critical applications and systems, or where down time means loss of revenue far out classing the extra cost of ECC functionality. Just another feature required by those who are the big customers of Xeon platforms and gets passed on to others. Much like the massive memory bandwidths, SAS support, memory mirroring, virtualisation optimisations and so on.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Correct. TB really IS PCIe. truly external in fact. I believe the current mac pro has 1x16 and 2x4. First, I don't think the iMac would ever have 4 TB ports.

And you are also right that I don't like it that way. I don't think anyone wants to have their graphics cards, storage, RAM, and everything else hooked up on the outside.



Pixar doesn't use macs.



Not a complete failure. I have it, and I use it (although I have considered going back to SL multiple times). Its just not as good as it could have been, by a long shot.

Oops.

 

[Loa]

Hello,

I've skimmed the discussion and read countless arguments. I've even said some of them myself in the past, but now I think it's much simpler.

Value A = how much profit would Apple make by keeping its Mac Pro line.
Value B = how much money would Apple save by killing its Mac Pro line.

If A is greater than B, the Mac Pro lives. If not; it will die.

Simple as that. Everything else is irrelevant now, and has been ever since Apple stopped making Mac-PC Photoshop comparisons.

Remember folk, Apple is a business, not your friendly neighbourhood shop!

Loa