Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?

[yoak]

It would have to be downsized and made more affordable (no 30 lb worth of aluminum- plastic works for Dell and HP desktops) but the platform, a tough, strong brute of a processor, is a must for Logic, Final Cut, and scientific users. They are a bargain, too, because they last.

My Mac pro dates to 2006, and it's quad core processors and high end video card are still performing quite nicely in 2012, while ALL of my family's many Apple laptops but one have gone belly up, with faulty motherboards. I got my money's worth and then some, while theirs fell in their prime..

It would be a shame if it were cut, leaving a big gap in consumer needs. Let's hope cooler heads prevail, and a more affordable performance platform be offered in its place. One can only hope,

Al

I'll happily pay whatever the custom is for that aluminium case.
I have sent my MacPro as checked luggage on flights in its original box and nothing else. I admit I would have preffered a flight case, but it was a one off situation and it had to be shipped. It survived, and later I have moved it with car and boat around the country to where ever we needed it on a production. Still looks like new, still works well (although after a rendering of a 1.30h sequence from my RED 4k timeline took 25 hours, I'm ready for an upgrade

 

[dbit]

This year I'm moving into doing a lot more 3D production and compositing work. I need a workhorse pro machine. I think it's crazy that I'm totally willing to spend $5000 on a mac pro for this knowing that I could build a comparable PC for half the price, but I am. I'm not that well off by any means, I'll be socking away money diligently this year to buy a new system. The way I see it, I spend more time with my operating system than I do with any other single individual in my life. Why would I not want to enjoy that relationship? But I fear that apple has become a consumer electronics company primarily. Without a solid roadmap for pro machines I truly fear what I may have to do. I do NOT want to go to the darkside (I've done that enough freelancing onsite). I really do not want to do that. le sigh.

 

[mBox]

... I could build a comparable PC for half the price..

Or just get thet latest Mac Pro and BootCamp it.
Most 3D shops do it all the time due to the ease of logging back and forth.
We do it cause to date, our Mac Pro 2008 still rocks with Windows XP for a lot of 3D work using mostly Maya.

 

[Yebubbleman]

This year I'm moving into doing a lot more 3D production and compositing work. I need a workhorse pro machine. I think it's crazy that I'm totally willing to spend $5000 on a mac pro for this knowing that I could build a comparable PC for half the price, but I am. I'm not that well off by any means, I'll be socking away money diligently this year to buy a new system. The way I see it, I spend more time with my operating system than I do with any other single individual in my life. Why would I not want to enjoy that relationship? But I fear that apple has become a consumer electronics company primarily. Without a solid roadmap for pro machines I truly fear what I may have to do. I do NOT want to go to the darkside (I've done that enough freelancing onsite). I really do not want to do that. le sigh.

If this is a work machine and all of the programs being used are available on both platforms, then as much as Mac OS X offers a better experience than Windows, a Windows PC is the better buy, especially if it's a desktop tower. Which is not to say that the Mac Pro, for when it was released, wasn't a good deal, because it was; but you can build a tower with far better graphics card options and have it be far more upgradable than a Mac Pro could ever be. If all you're doing by "spending more time with your operating system than you would any single individual in your life" is manipulating files with Windows Explorer, then it's not like your experience is going to suck all that much more in Windows 7 than it would in Lion. I'd personally still have something like a MacBook Pro around in addition to said tower for things like Mail, Calendars, Address Book, iChat, general all-purpose non-professional use, because let's face it, Mac OS X does make all of those tasks noticably nicer than in Windows. But for a machine designed to get work done, and with things like the Adobe apps that are identical on both platforms, a custom-built Windows PC is the best investment, hands down.

 

[milo]

I have to agree, if you're doing heavy duty apps that are cross platform, the PC is a better deal. Or hackintosh if you really want to run OSX.

 

[yoak]

I don't know if a pc is the better investment. For it certainly is not. Having to spend all day in windows is just not something that's worth saving a few buck IMHO.
I do understand that you can get a better spec'd pc for less money at the moment, but when I got my mac pro it was a bargain and it is still running like it was new.
The only crash I ever had was last month, after installing Adobe CS5.5.
It hasn't happend again though

----------

I have to agree, if you're doing heavy duty apps that are cross platform, the PC is a better deal. Or hackintosh if you really want to run OSX.

I'm not saying you have to spend hours on maintainance running a PC these days, but that certainly seems to be the case with hackintosh.
And any hour wasted on that, you can add to the cost compared to getting a mac pro

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I've had to do very little to maintain my Dell Netbook Hackintosh...certainly not hours. A couple of times I had to re-run the setup utility to restore sound after a regular Apple software update, but that's about it (couple of minutes at most).

 

[Eidorian]

I was reading my RSS feeds just now and HP just announced this 27" AIO workstation. I suggest watching the video at the bottom of the page.

It is LGA 1155 based and upgrading it appears to be rather easy.

 

[Peace]

I was reading my RSS feeds just now and HP just announced this 27" AIO workstation. I suggest watching the video at the bottom of the page.

It is LGA 1155 based and upgrading it appears to be rather easy.

Saw that. Interesting specs until you read the specs for the low-end.

http://www.hp.com/united-states/cam...ures.html?jumpid=ex_r11260_go_z1#.Tzq9ep_FXjA

 

[Eidorian]

Saw that. Interesting specs until you read the specs for the low-end.

http://www.hp.com/united-states/cam...ures.html?jumpid=ex_r11260_go_z1#.Tzq9ep_FXjA

I agree, starting at $1,899 does not offer you much but you do get the panel and 3-year warranty out of it.

 

[Peace]

I agree, starting at $1,899 does not offer you much but you do get the panel and 3-year warranty out of it.

Don't get me wrong. The high-end specs are very good but I'm guessing it wouldn't be $1899. Probably something along the line of $3299. For that kind of price I'd rather have a box than an AIO.

 

[Eidorian]

Don't get me wrong. The high-end specs are very good but I'm guessing it wouldn't be $1899. Probably something along the line of $3299. For that kind of price I'd rather have a box than an AIO.

I just wish the GPU slot looked a little more standard. RAM and an additional drive can be installed by the user depending on the situation. You also have a chance for a down the road upgrade to the E3-1200 V2 CPUs.

Keep in mind this is a AIO machine with the included 27" display.

 

[yoak]

I've had to do very little to maintain my Dell Netbook Hackintosh...certainly not hours. A couple of times I had to re-run the setup utility to restore sound after a regular Apple software update, but that's about it (couple of minutes at most).

But do you edit 4K HD video on it, adding PCI cards, upgrading graphic cards, running external Raids over eSATA etc?
I´m not doubting what you are saying, but it´s a bit more pieces to the puzzle when you deal with workstations

 

[nanofrog]

If this is a work machine and all of the programs being used are available on both platforms, then as much as Mac OS X offers a better experience than Windows...

This is more a matter of preference these days, as Windows has come a long way in terms of stability.

a Windows PC is the better buy, especially if it's a desktop tower.

Again, it depends on the specifics.

For example, if the specific usage doesn't require the use of a Xeon and/or ECC memory (think core count that requires a DP system to achieve), a consumer based system would suffice, and can be had much cheaper than a MP (considerably so, even compared to the base Single Processor system).

But for those that need DP systems (core counts) or ECC memory functionality, Xeons are a necessity, and the prices are much closer between PC's and MP's generally speaking (the base SP MP model is an exception as the margin is 56 - 57%, which puts it considerably higher compared to PC equivalents running the same exact CPU).

I don't know if a pc is the better investment. For it certainly is not. Having to spend all day in windows is just not something that's worth saving a few buck IMHO.

See above, as things have certainly changed.

What you mention would have been true in the past, but is no longer the case, so such statements today is now FUD.

I'm not saying you have to spend hours on maintenance running a PC these days, but that certainly seems to be the case with hackintosh.

Maintenance isn't a big deal on either a Windows system or Hackintosh these days (not really different from OS X at all), so again, it seems your POV is mired in the past rather than based on current facts.

Heck, repairing permissions for OS X requires more time and effort than I put into maintaining Windows 7.

Please understand, I'm not stuck on any particular OS (I run multiples, including Linux), but want an OS + hardware that does the best job possible for what I'm doing. What works best for me may not be that way for someone else, but it's the best approach for any user rather than follow falsehoods (whether they were once true or not; do the research and make the best choice and be done with it). It results in the specific user getting the best overall solution to their needs rather than following useless trends for their purposes.

Just a thought anyway.

 

[Liquinn]

I'm a little concerned. If apple are not updating the Mac Pro then they quite could possibly kill off the Macbook Pro instead or something. I hope they keep both of the machines. The damn iPad/iOs devices is getting the attention now a days and not the Macs.

 

[GermanyChris]

I'm a little concerned. If apple are not updating the Mac Pro then they quite could possibly kill off the Macbook Pro instead or something. I hope they keep both of the machines. The damn iPad/iOs devices is getting the attention now a days and not the Macs.

Apples not going to kill the Mac Pro and they defiantly won't kill the MBP geeeezz talk about shooting the company in the foot. you could make a business case for the MP but not the MBP everyone and their sister has one.

 

[yoak]

This is more a matter of preference these days, as Windows has come a long way in terms of stability.


Again, it depends on the specifics.

For example, if the specific usage doesn't require the use of a Xeon and/or ECC memory (think core count that requires a DP system to achieve), a consumer based system would suffice, and can be had much cheaper than a MP (considerably so, even compared to the base Single Processor system).

But for those that need DP systems (core counts) or ECC memory functionality, Xeons are a necessity, and the prices are much closer between PC's and MP's generally speaking (the base SP MP model is an exception as the margin is 56 - 57%, which puts it considerably higher compared to PC equivalents running the same exact CPU).


See above, as things have certainly changed.

What you mention would have been true in the past, but is no longer the case, so such statements today is now FUD.


Maintenance isn't a big deal on either a Windows system or Hackintosh these days (not really different from OS X at all), so again, it seems your POV is mired in the past rather than based on current facts.

Heck, repairing permissions for OS X requires more time and effort than I put into maintaining Windows 7.

Please understand, I'm not stuck on any particular OS (I run multiples, including Linux), but want an OS + hardware that does the best job possible for what I'm doing. What works best for me may not be that way for someone else, but it's the best approach for any user rather than follow falsehoods (whether they were once true or not; do the research and make the best choice and be done with it). It results in the specific user getting the best overall solution to their needs rather than following useless trends for their purposes.

Just a thought anyway.

Ok, I believe you guys if you say running a hackintosh is no problem these days, no matter what hardware you have. I have no experience with it other than thinking about trying it out a few years ago.

BUT, when it comes to spending my days in a windows environment, I'm standing by what I said. And it's not about reliability, I'm sure windows is doing fine these days, I just can't stand the look of it.
You were jumping to conclusions on that one. I wasn't saying anything other than, to me, looking at a computer all day, it's certainly worth a few bucks extra for that screen to look like OSX

 

[nanofrog]

Ok, I believe you guys if you say running a hackintosh is no problem these days, no matter what hardware you have. I have no experience with it other than thinking about trying it out a few years ago.

Hackintosh tools have come a long way in a rather short period of time. Especially so IMO, given the case they're not professionally developed.

BUT, when it comes to spending my days in a windows environment, I'm standing by what I said. And it's not about reliability, I'm sure windows is doing fine these days, I just can't stand the look of it.

What you're on about is preference, which was stated in the very first line of my last post. Granted, it was typed beneath Yebubbleman's post that was quoted, but it was relevant to both of you (figured you'd have read the entire thing - bad assumption on my part , but I really wish people would slow down and pay more attention to the details as there can be critical information there that is missed otherwise). Please understand, that's how I write, and accustomed to things being written (i.e. component datasheets, White Papers, ... sorts of things).

But the way your post was written, it gave me the impression there was more to it than the UI, or not even based in fact but marketing (either technical issues, or even that of an OS X fanboi).

Please understand, I'm not being judgmental or accusatory, but that's been seen a lot on both sides (Windows fanbois trolling MR as well as OS X fanbois trying to start an argument with anyone that writes a positive post on Windows, regardless of supporting facts).

That's not to say personal preference is meaningless, far from it actually. But it's only one aspect in the decision process, and from my POV, a system is just a tool to accomplish specific tasks (hardware + software), so the technical aspects take precedence. So if OS X does the best job, go for it. Or whatever OS + software + hardware that will (i.e. whatever creates the fewest headaches/aggravation for the user).

For example, I have to use tools I'm not all that fond of, but there's nothing better available on the market. And comparing what's available between Windows and OS X, Windows wins (more available choices). Even Linux beats OS X, as there's more available (precious little on OS X, and what's there, isn't that great).

 

[thekev]

I just wish the GPU slot looked a little more standard. RAM and an additional drive can be installed by the user depending on the situation. You also have a chance for a down the road upgrade to the E3-1200 V2 CPUs.

Keep in mind this is a AIO machine with the included 27" display.

It could be a good display, but their configurations need to be competitive when you break down the TCO for workstation users given that they're marketing it as one. I'm not going to figure out all the numbers right now. It's just that people who use quadro cards and things aren't necessarily concerned with the aesthetics of the computer or space sensitive regarding a tower in most circumstances. On a side note... I still want one of the new cintiqs.

Don't get me wrong. The high-end specs are very good but I'm guessing it wouldn't be $1899. Probably something along the line of $3299. For that kind of price I'd rather have a box than an AIO.

I was thinking the same thing. It has to be competitive as a complete solution. The imac was aimed at the role of a consumer desktop. Its use outside of that purpose is more of a leveraged thing. The mac pro is expensive, so some people go for the imac if they can get away with it. It's a little different with Apple. You buy out of what they decide to produce or you don't buy at all.

 

[GermanyChris]

Hell, if the high end iMac can handle Adobe CS and CAD well, then there is little need for a Mac Pro. Of course I could be totally wrong.Image
Image
Image

you are..

 

[Yebubbleman]

I don't know if a pc is the better investment. For it certainly is not. Having to spend all day in windows is just not something that's worth saving a few buck IMHO.
I do understand that you can get a better spec'd pc for less money at the moment, but when I got my mac pro it was a bargain and it is still running like it was new.
The only crash I ever had was last month, after installing Adobe CS5.5.
It hasn't happend again though

----------



I'm not saying you have to spend hours on maintainance running a PC these days, but that certainly seems to be the case with hackintosh.
And any hour wasted on that, you can add to the cost compared to getting a mac pro

1) If you are using software such as Microsoft Office 2010/2011 or Adobe Creative Suite apps on your workstation, and that's all you're doing; the internet is only used for basic software updating and maintenance and you're doing very little work in anything else, then given that the software costs the same between platforms, a Windows machine is a better value. This is solely in terms of how much money is being spent and what it buys you in terms of hardware muscle. If you spend 95% of your time in an Adobe app and only 2% using either Windows Explorer or the Finder, then it seems stupid to pour more money into that 2% given that the user experiences between the two, for very simple stuff, is similar enough that it doesn't really matter. That said, my primary (non-gaming-tower) personal machine will always be a Mac, but on my Mac I won't spend 95% of my time in a cross-platform application.

2) You don't have to waste "hours" on a Hackintosh. You spend AN hour doing the research on the most compatible/easy-going build, and if you like computers, it's not like that's a chore. Then you spend minutes following those directions to set them up. Even when installing point release updates such as the 10.7.3 update to Lion, you manually download it, run the package installer, then before rebooting, put all of your kexts, drivers, and any other odds and ends back (which should take a maximum of ten minutes) and then you reboot. You only waste "hours" on this if you fail to follow directions or do things correctly.

I was reading my RSS feeds just now and HP just announced this 27" AIO workstation. I suggest watching the video at the bottom of the page.

It is LGA 1155 based and upgrading it appears to be rather easy.

Wow. I'm skeptical because it's an HP, but as far as all-in-ones go, that design is nothing short of wonderful. As a technician, the iMacs are a nightmare to service and have been since the days of the iSight-enabled iMac G5. Apple could really take a cue here. Though, I'd say, that even HP could afford to make this machine a little thicker for better air-flow.

Again, it depends on the specifics.

For example, if the specific usage doesn't require the use of a Xeon and/or ECC memory (think core count that requires a DP system to achieve), a consumer based system would suffice, and can be had much cheaper than a MP (considerably so, even compared to the base Single Processor system).

But for those that need DP systems (core counts) or ECC memory functionality, Xeons are a necessity, and the prices are much closer between PC's and MP's generally speaking (the base SP MP model is an exception as the margin is 56 - 57%, which puts it considerably higher compared to PC equivalents running the same exact CPU).

Right, but you can't configure a Mac Pro to use two video cards in either an SLI configuration or a CrossFireX configuration, which is terrible, given that the Mac Pro can support multiple video cards otherwise. Not only that, but if you want to upgrade the video card on a Mac Pro, you are either stuck with Apple's options or you have to go out, buy an off-the-shelf card, flash its firmware, hope you don't break it, and hope you can find a driver for it. Not only that, but on a custom-built workstation, you can replace/upgrade the motherboard and the CPUs with little to no difficulty, plus it's not like the Mac Pro is the only workstation/workstation Motherboard that will take Xeons and ECC RAM.

 

[Eidorian]

Wow. I'm skeptical because it's an HP, but as far as all-in-ones go, that design is nothing short of wonderful. As a technician, the iMacs are a nightmare to service and have been since the days of the iSight-enabled iMac G5. Apple could really take a cue here. Though, I'd say, that even HP could afford to make this machine a little thicker for better air-flow.

This video explains some of their reasoning behind an AIO workstation.

 

[Yebubbleman]

This video explains some of their reasoning behind an AIO workstation.

Yeah, it's making me way more sold on the idea. I really want to see more people doing something like this; or at least replacing the stupid all-in-ones we have now with stuff like that. Especially the iMac; that machine could seriously benefit from some of these design factors.

 

[nanofrog]

Right, but you can't configure a Mac Pro to use two video cards in either an SLI configuration or a CrossFireX configuration, which is terrible, given that the Mac Pro can support multiple video cards otherwise. Not only that, but if you want to upgrade the video card on a Mac Pro, you are either stuck with Apple's options or you have to go out, buy an off-the-shelf card, flash its firmware, hope you don't break it, and hope you can find a driver for it. Not only that, but on a custom-built workstation, you can replace/upgrade the motherboard and the CPUs with little to no difficulty, plus it's not like the Mac Pro is the only workstation/workstation Motherboard that will take Xeons and ECC RAM.

No, OS X doesn't support either of those capabilities (SLI and CrossFire). But given the fact it's a workstation and not a gaming tower, it isn't necessary from that POV, and it seems Apple used that fact as a means of justification for skipping out on support for either of those features.

It also skips any licensing requirements and/or additional hardware as well, which translates into more money they'd have to spend per unit. Complain or not, this isn't likely to change given Apple's history.

And in the case of a workstation, even if you're able to leverage GPGPU processing, SLI and CrossFire are not necessary anyway.

However, it is possible to run CrossFire under Windows on a MP, and IIRC, there's a hack available that allows SLI to run under Windows as well, once its performed. And as per gaming on a computer, Windows offers a lot more titles ATM.

So I don't see it as all that big of a deal, as the MP + 1 - 2x GPUS + second OS (Windows) + whatever games you want, can still users with a good gaming experience without the need to buy 2x different systems for dedicated use.

There are limits of course, as a separate gaming machine would allow a user to exceed what's possible with a MP (i.e. board that supports 3x or 4x GPU cards, Over Clocking, ... types of hardware tweaks not possible with a MP). But a system of this sort is rather expensive, and more so if the primary system (work) is a MP.

 

[Yebubbleman]

No, OS X doesn't support either of those capabilities (SLI and CrossFire). But given the fact it's a workstation and not a gaming tower, it isn't necessary from that POV, and it seems Apple used that fact as a means of justification for skipping out on support for either of those features.

It also skips any licensing requirements and/or additional hardware as well, which translates into more money they'd have to spend per unit. Complain or not, this isn't likely to change given Apple's history.

And in the case of a workstation, even if you're able to leverage GPGPU processing, SLI and CrossFire are not necessary anyway.

However, it is possible to run CrossFire under Windows on a MP, and IIRC, there's a hack available that allows SLI to run under Windows as well, once its performed. And as per gaming on a computer, Windows offers a lot more titles ATM.

So I don't see it as all that big of a deal, as the MP + 1 - 2x GPUS + second OS (Windows) + whatever games you want, can still users with a good gaming experience without the need to buy 2x different systems for dedicated use.

There are limits of course, as a separate gaming machine would allow a user to exceed what's possible with a MP (i.e. board that supports 3x or 4x GPU cards, Over Clocking, ... types of hardware tweaks not possible with a MP). But a system of this sort is rather expensive, and more so if the primary system (work) is a MP.

To the best of my knowledge, SLI isn't solely used in gaming. In fact, unless I'm severely mistaken, NVIDIA is marketing it more at workstation users these days given that gamers are aware enough of it and its benefits so that any marketing on it aimed at them is a waste of money. I'm pretty sure the ability to do SLI with a Quadro is evidence of this fact. CrossFireX, on the other hand is, I think, still being primarily marketed at gamers, but that's because NVIDIA has more of a marketshare in high-end gaming graphics cards than AMD. That's not to say that a non-game developer couldn't utilize CrossFireX in the same way that they could SLI, but I think AMD is more focused on pulling customers of high-end cards away from NVIDIA, hence the Quadro having more marketshare than the Fire cards. Given Apple's push with OpenCL and AMD abandoning ATI Stream technology in favor of it, and even NVIDIA's push with CUDA and support for both CUDA and OpenCL in Snow Leopard and later, an SLI or a CrossFireX solution would be amazing for non-game pro apps. Motion 5 and Final Cut Pro X, and Adobe Premiere, and Adobe After Effects, not to mention AutoCAD, and a boat-load more, would all benefit from that kind of feature, and it's stupid that the Mac Pro doesn't have that ability. Though the fact that it ships with Radeon cards and not the workstation class Fire cards or even the Quadro cards is also extremely silly. If it's a workstation computer, why are you giving me a consumer-level video card?