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No the taxes are what they are. The people who run Apple, a US company, is just avoiding puting the money in a US bank account. That's avoidance really.

Again save the spin for dummies. This is all about a small handful of multi millionaires making sure that they.....no, more like their grandkids.,,.won't ever need to work.

I'm not spinning anything, I really hate these new political terms that come out each week.

I'm saying it's the laws that allow avoidance. It's the laws that let those millionaires insure extreme padding for their next generation (Or just hoarding it for themselves). It's also the poorest class that takes in but only puts back a small amount into the pot.

It's the middle class who generally carries the brunt. The families like mine who have no kids because we know we can't afford it. Make just enough to not qualify for any government assistance. That and small business owners who usually get taxed to the death of their business leaving only huge corporations in their place.
 
I'm not spinning anything, I really hate these new political terms that come out each week.

I'm saying it's the laws that allow avoidance. It's the laws that let those millionaires insure extreme padding for their next generation (Or just hoarding it for themselves). It's also the poorest class that takes in but only puts back a small amount into the pot.

It's the middle class who generally carries the brunt. The families like mine who have no kids because we know we can't afford it. Make just enough to not qualify for any government assistance. That and small business owners who usually get taxed to the death of their business leaving only huge corporations in their place.

"Laws" are not living entities. They are inanimate markings on paper. Designations. The result of human actions.

Guess who makes and changes laws? People. Rich people. Like the ones that run and own companies and donate money to politicians and the US Chamber of Commerce, who makes stuff like this happen.

And none of it happens by mistake.

These are not "loopholes". They are custom built exemptions.

Last but not least, everyone bears the brunt in this society including the working class and the poor. Meanwhile this nation is richer than everywhere else in the world except a tiny handful of petro nations. If the Swedish postman or French farmer has a better life than the US masses, that's a choice made by rich Americans, like the ones who run and own This company.

So again, spare us the propaganda. This is all done by design.
 
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"Laws" are not living entities. They are inanimate markings on paper. Designations. The result of human actions.

Guess who makes and changes laws? People. Rich people. Like the ones that run and own companies and donate money to politicians and the US Chamber of Commerce, who makes stuff like this happen.

And none of it happens by mistake.

These are not "loopholes". They are custom built exemptions.

So again, spare us the propaganda. This is all done by design.

Propaganda huh? Yeah. Me saying that laws should be written fairly is propaganda. Who said anything about them being alive, that's irrelevant. I'm aware rich people write them, that's the most frustrating. I'm not going to continue this conversation if you think that our current laws are fair and equal to all businesses and citizens alike. Exemptions or not, you can safely say that some are getting the top end of the bargain. Period.
 
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I'm not sure I follow. If companies don't repatriate funds, there is no tax gain but there isn't loss. The current situation just continues.

@IJ Reilly 's explanation was quite eloquent. I don't think I can do better. The Wall Street Journal and a couple other papers commented on this during Obama's first term. Michael Mundaca commented on this while employed as assistant treasury secretary. The typical conclusion is that the 2004 tax holiday was ultimately a net loss due to changes in corporate behavior. If Congress issues a new tax holiday, they get to avoid actually solving the problem. Press speculation declines temporarily with less cash is held overseas, yet it doesn't solve anything going forward. With the possibility of a net federal revenue loss, I don't see the benefit. These things also have the tendency to disproportionately benefit the larger companies, which I personally hate. Anytime one of them fails, it does too much damage.

This is one of these moments when we get to ask ourselves some fundamental questions about the purpose of tax policies, and maybe, why we have taxes and government at all.

For the last 35 years or so we've been running an economic experiment. The hypothesis was, and still is: if you free up capital, everyone will benefit. This is called supply-side economics, AKA, trickle-down. What it has succeeded in doing over those 35 years is to steadily concentrate wealth in the hands of the already wealthy and leave pretty much everybody else with less. If it has enlarged the pie at all, even more of that pie has gone to those who already have the most. If supply-side economics was supposed to be of broad benefit, then it has clearly failed, miserably.

So now we look at all the cash corporations such as Apple have socked away, not just overseas, but in the U.S. as well. If Apple was able to repatriate a big part of their overseas cash hoard, what expansion of their business would they be able to undertake that they cannot do today? I think the clear answer is none. They would be able to buy back more stock and pay a larger dividend to shareholders. Anyone who thinks this has the same economic affect as expanding plant and equipment didn't take Econ 101. The reality is, it isn't designed to benefit everybody or the economy broadly. It is designed to comfort the already comfortable. That's the secret, hidden in plain sight.

And just for the record I say this as someone who is a stockholder who could very likely find myself with more value in my portfolio as a result. Yet, I have no problem understanding that something that might make me fatter and happier is not necessarily good economic policy. The sad part is know it will happen and it will be sold as the same old bill of spoiled goods.

That was very nicely stated.
 
It's not as simplistic as you state. Expats do not pay full U.S. income taxes as-if they lived in the U.S. They start off with a $96K deduction (so if they only make this much they, in fact, pay no U.S. taxes). Then they get a Foreign Tax Paid deduction. Then they get a housing deduction.

Like companies though, they are liable for income taxes due in the country the income was made.



Stock splits are smoke and mirrors. They do not de facto create value for the shareholder and not much in style now and provably forever more -- notice all the securities that are in the multiple $100s now. In the "old days" those stocks would have been split to get them back down below $100.

The rationale was the lower price made it more digestible for the individual investors. But the individual investor has mostly gone away or migrated to ETFs and also with digital markets there no longer is a surcharge for trading "odd lots" -- those under 100 shares. Also Institutions control the market direction now. So there is no marketing reason anymore to split stocks. In fact it's elite and desirable now for a company's stock to be $400, 500, 600+. Occasionally you'll get a company like Google that does it to preserve control like when they split the stock into voting and non-voting shares.

Yeah I see your point, but I'd still like to get 49 for the price of one.
 
Ah a well stated position. My thanks.

I agree with much of what you say except the "They would be able to buy back more stock and pay a larger dividend to shareholders. Anyone who thinks this has the same economic affect as expanding plant and equipment didn't take Econ 101."

If Apple pays dividends instead of building a plant, yes Apple does not create jobs (as an example econ benefit) directly. However, the shareholders (rich or otherwise) now have more money to spend or save. If they spend it on lattes or Ferraris or whatever they creating jobs at the companies making those products. If they save it, the bank will then lend it to others that are A) buying expensive products which create jobs for the people making those products or B) starting or expanding a business - perhaps with a new plant. (Apple's money is currently being loaned out by banks or invested in other companies similar to this individual example).

Just because money goes to a bank or a rich person doesn't mean its next stop isn't in the pocket of a factory worker making a luxury car or barista at starbucks.

Well again, that's trickle-down economics. We've been running that experiment for 35 years now, and we've seen that it succeeds in further concentrating wealth. That has been the main impact of supply-side economics, and if you ask me, its real purpose. What never fails to astonish me is how easy it seems to be to persuade people who've had their upward mobility crushed by this theory for two generations to continue to vote for people who promise more of it.
 
Tax holiday. Such a benign term for a gift to those who didn't pay their taxes and used those funds to extort the government into lowering rates before they would.

Government also carries blame for allowing delayed repatriation and not forcing repatriation. I hope the holiday closes the loophole without opening up two new ones.

There were no taxes owed, and no one extorted anyone. The income was earned in a foreign country, and not subject to tax in the US. If you have a problem with that your gripe is with Congress, though your "forced repatriation" idea is a non-starter because it violates the Constitution.
 
Well again, that's trickle-down economics. We've been running that experiment for 35 years now, and we've seen that it succeeds in further concentrating wealth. That has been the main impact of supply-side economics, and if you ask me, its real purpose. What never fails to astonish me is how easy it seems to be to persuade people who've had their upward mobility crushed by this theory for two generations to continue to vote for people who promise more of it.

I think you misunderstand my point. I am talking about how money works (in a relatively free market). It keeps moving. Now of course this isn't instantaneous with loan applications, investment decisions, and buying decisions slow down this process some. And the lack of hot investments or must buy products and can further slow it down. Generally the faster the velocity of money the better. But within reasonable constraints money doesn't stop moving. So we want exciting new things to buy (or invest in the company making them) because it increases the speed of this turnover of money that increases the economic pie for everyone. These are economic facts of capitalism.

Now 'supply side' and 'demand side' economics each claim to have a magic lever that can control these underlying economic forces and magically create economic growth be it changing interest rates or government spending or various tax policies. And while all of these things have some ability to either help or hinder economic growth the underlying idea that either side can fundamentally alter the economy in some magical way is bollocks.

Two things create economic advantage: innovation and human work. Everything else is academics and politicians trying to claim they have a magic fix.

Sure the rich take care of the rich. Of course. But the widening gap between the rich and poor is not from the poor being crushed, but the upward mobility increasing. Technology not economics have increased the amount of money someone can amass in a lifetime from millions to billions.

80% of millionaires are first generation rich

Did 'supply side' economics help Bill Gates become a Billionaire? Steve Jobs? Elon Musk? Or did they found a company that created a product that many people bought?

Does the free market make everyone a billionaire? No of course not. But just because it allows a few people to become super rich doesn't mean it somehow must be crushing poor people. Capitalism has raised the standard of living for the poor too. An American at the 'poverty line' has a similar lifestyle to the average European. And don't get me started on true poverty - we have it so good here in America we have lost sight of what bad even is.
 
Two things create economic advantage: innovation and human work. Everything else is academics and politicians trying to claim they have a magic fix.

You're a bit hung up on ideological concerns, none of which relate to a potential tax holiday. As I pointed out, the last one in 2004 was passed based on the ideas that it would drive certain corporate behavior and provide a net increase in federal revenues. Neither happened, yet they (lobbyists, Congress, Trump) are pushing for a tax holiday under the same reasoning. Their proposed reasoning is not ideological in nature. It presents specific claims, which are unlikely to materialize.
 
Sure, it's not illegal but taking advantage of tax loopholes as one of the most profitable companies isn't ethical especially as a company that seems to take moral high ground on other issues.
Also, it's a weak argument that everyone else is doing so it's ok because it is not ok to break speed limit since others are doing it.
Your second paragraph represents a logical fallacy—specifically, invalid parallelism. Breaking the speed limit is breaking the law. Taking full advantage of the tax code as written, however, is not. You and I taking advantage of every deduction we can is neither illegal nor is it unethical. The same applies to corporations, no matter how much people try to demonize them.

In short, using the tax code to one's advantage is not a matter of ethics. In fact, not doing so would explicitly be unethical. Why? Because corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize value.
 
I think you misunderstand my point. I am talking about how money works (in a relatively free market). It keeps moving. Now of course this isn't instantaneous with loan applications, investment decisions, and buying decisions slow down this process some. And the lack of hot investments or must buy products and can further slow it down. Generally the faster the velocity of money the better. But within reasonable constraints money doesn't stop moving. So we want exciting new things to buy (or invest in the company making them) because it increases the speed of this turnover of money that increases the economic pie for everyone. These are economic facts of capitalism.

Now 'supply side' and 'demand side' economics each claim to have a magic lever that can control these underlying economic forces and magically create economic growth be it changing interest rates or government spending or various tax policies. And while all of these things have some ability to either help or hinder economic growth the underlying idea that either side can fundamentally alter the economy in some magical way is bollocks.

Two things create economic advantage: innovation and human work. Everything else is academics and politicians trying to claim they have a magic fix.

Sure the rich take care of the rich. Of course. But the widening gap between the rich and poor is not from the poor being crushed, but the upward mobility increasing. Technology not economics have increased the amount of money someone can amass in a lifetime from millions to billions.

80% of millionaires are first generation rich

Did 'supply side' economics help Bill Gates become a Billionaire? Steve Jobs? Elon Musk? Or did they found a company that created a product that many people bought?

Does the free market make everyone a billionaire? No of course not. But just because it allows a few people to become super rich doesn't mean it somehow must be crushing poor people. Capitalism has raised the standard of living for the poor too. An American at the 'poverty line' has a similar lifestyle to the average European. And don't get me started on true poverty - we have it so good here in America we have lost sight of what bad even is.

I don't think I misunderstand your point, but I think you must misunderstand mine. Mine is supply-side economics is a proven concentrator of wealth. None of this should come as any surprise, since this is the basic mechanism at work. In a supply-side scheme, earnings from capital investment is taxed at a far lower rate than earnings from labor. That's the formula, pure and simple. it's an economic plan designed by rich people and for rich people. We are about to get supply side voodoo in steroids, wrapped in a phony-baloney promise that it will help people in the middle class. It won't. It never has, and it never will. This sad truth is it was never supposed to do it.

I should be celebrating since I stand to benefit, as someone who earns most their income from investments now and will be soon be leaving the labor force. But I find no reason to celebrate the American people getting snookered again.
 
Yes I was pointing out the absurdity of the many posters saying that Apple should pay more in taxes for reasons like "fairness" or "ethics" or other meaningless phrases without any other basis for A) why they should pay more and B) how much more is enough.

For instance, the item I responded to that you got all huffy about:
"Sure, it's not illegal but taking advantage of tax loopholes as one of the most profitable companies isn't ethical especially as a company that seems to take moral high ground on other issues."
  1. This person is admitting that Apple pays all of the taxes legally required, so rule of law is not sufficient.
  2. Calls a legal tax deduction a pejorative 'loophole'.
  3. Suggests that use of a deduction by a highly profitable company is unethical.
  4. Suggests that a company taking a moral stand on another issue such as gay marriage should impact the amount of taxes it pays.
  • Is every IRS deduction a 'loophole'?
  • Is taking a tax deduction always unethical or just the ones companies making a lot of profit?
  • Is a lot of profit absolute and revenue based or profit margin based?
Once we've established what amount is too much profit to guide corporate decisions by tax law, how must a company rectify this unethical position of "not paying enough" due to their profitability? Should they pay a set higher rate than other companies? Or should it be based on profitability - the more profit the higher the rate? Should we just set a maximum amount of profit that companies can make and then they turn over any amount over that to the government?

I've never heard the rule of law described as a feel good position before, but it be crazy times. Feel free to explain your position as well instead of simply attacking mine.

Great points. I always cringe whenever people start talking about "loopholes". I sometimes flat out ask them to define for me in objective, legal language what is the difference between "regular" tax laws and "loopholes". If they answer at all they usually speak to intent - that "loopholes" are built into tax code to favor certain companies or individuals.

The problem is it really doesn't matter what the "intent" was, once a piece of legislation is passed, that is the law. Whether anyone likes it or not, thinks it is fair or not, or even understands it or not, it is the law - the rules of the game. I find it hypocritical to fault a company for following the law. I have personally disliked the majority of Representatives, Senators and recent presidents but the legislation they all passed & signed is still the law and it is not Apple's responsibility to pay more than they are required to by law.
 
I hope the tax break happens quickly. Both political sides have agreed for years this has to happen yet it hasn't.

It should be a huge shot in the arm for Apple... Maybe they'll finally release a decent computer and get into TV.
 
Great points. I always cringe whenever people start talking about "loopholes". I sometimes flat out ask them to define for me in objective, legal language what is the difference between "regular" tax laws and "loopholes". If they answer at all they usually speak to intent - that "loopholes" are built into tax code to favor certain companies or individuals.

The problem is it really doesn't matter what the "intent" was, once a piece of legislation is passed, that is the law. Whether anyone likes it or not, thinks it is fair or not, or even understands it or not, it is the law - the rules of the game. I find it hypocritical to fault a company for following the law. I have personally disliked the majority of Representatives, Senators and recent presidents but the legislation they all passed & signed is still the law and it is not Apple's responsibility to pay more than they are required to by law.

I always cringe when I hear someone say that corporations and those who make their money though investments don't lobby for and receive favored treatment in the tax code.

So yeah, intent matters. Intent is everything.
 
Apple has that money in foreign countries. To bring it to the United States would cost 35% in taxes.

So, Apple simply borrows money at a 3% rate, saving 32%.

Example:
Apple needs $10 million for operations in the US...
Apple would need to pull $15.5 million from Ireland, bringing in $10 million after taxes...

OR

Apple can BORROW $10 million at 3% interest, thus paying only $10.3 million

This saves Apple over $5 million.
Well put. Replace million with billion and now everyone knows how each fraction of a percentage counts.
 
Since it's safe to assume a majority of that 94% is from sales inside the US, how does that money actually make it out of the US without first paying tax on it?

Apple's tax practices seem to be greatly misunderstood, even when considering them in broad strokes. Far too often what it does domestically is conflated with what it does internationally, and people assume that it is doing things with regard to domestic taxes (i.e. those paid to the U.S. and to U.S. states) which it is not doing.

The short version of my point: No, the majority of that 94% you refer to isn't from sales inside the United States.

A bit longer version of that point: Yes, it is true that when it comes to profits that Apple legitimately generates outside of the U.S., Apple uses accounting practices that effectively funnel, as some refer to it, a large portion of those profits through jurisdictions where it realizes very low tax rates. In other words it avoids income taxes on them to a great extent, presumably legally. In this way Apple saves billions in foreign taxes which it might otherwise have to pay.

Just to be clear, when I say legitimately I mean based on a fair - some might call it a common sense - assessment of where those profits were really generated, without using accounting tricks to claim that they were generated in certain jurisdictions when in reality they were generated elsewhere. I mean something close to: For the most part, where you sell something is where you 'make' the profit that comes from that sale. Obviously in practice - based on standard accounting methods - it's considerably more complicated than that.

When it comes to the profits that I would consider as legitimately made in the United States, Apple for the most part doesn't do the kinds of things that it does with its foreign profits. It doesn't use accounting tricks to shift those profits out of the U.S. and thus avoid paying U.S. income taxes on them. I'm gonna walk through some sales and tax numbers. I'll of course be oversimplifying things, there's more to the actual calculations (and considerations) than these numbers get at, but I'm trying to give a big picture view of the situation.

Apple doesn't break out its U.S. revenue or income, but it does break out revenue and segment operating income for the Americas as a whole. Over the last 3 fiscal years, revenue for Apple's Americas segment was $260.6 billion while operating income for that segment was $85.5 billion. That segment operating income doesn't take into account Apple's non-segment operating expenses - expenses that are more properly attributed to the company as a whole than to particular geographic segments. Those expenses totaled $36.6 billion for the last 3 years. If we apportion those company expenses to the respective geographic segments (in this case I used revenue share, but there are other basis we could use), we get an income of around $70.4 billion for Apple's Americas segment. (Again, I'm oversimplifying.) We could argue the numbers on the margins, but that's a fair ballpark at least for Apple's pre-tax profits from sales made in the Americas. There's a small amount of investment income (net of interest expenses) that should also be attributed to that geographic region, but its exclusion is more than made up for by the reality that the profit share we're looking at includes more than just the U.S., it includes all of the Americas (which increases the supposed tax base that we're looking at by around $8 billion).

For those 3 years Apple paid $28.0 billion in U.S. federal income taxes. That does not include provisions that Apple made for so-called repatriation taxes on unremitted foreign earnings. Those provisions show up as deferred taxes on Apple's reports and contribute to the effective tax rate that gets reported. That represents Apple saying: We don't owe these taxes right now because the foreign subsidiaries which made that money haven't remitted it to the parent company yet; however, we intended for that to happen at some point in the future, so we're accounting for that tax liability in our earnings reports. (Apple does that with about half of the foreign earnings that it doesn't bring to the United States.) The $28.0 billion only includes current U.S. federal income taxes, not those deferred taxes. It also does not include U.S. state income taxes.

Comparing that $28.0 billion in U.S. federal taxes to the $70.4 billion in profit from sales in the Americas would yield an aggregate tax rate for those 3 years of 39.8%. The federal corporate tax rate is 35%. And that 39.8% is after deductions for domestic production activities and credits for research and development which combined represent around 2.7% in tax savings. In other words, without those deductions and credits the rate would be around 42.5%. That's without considering state incomes taxes or deferred federal taxes, and while including sales from other parts of the Americas while only looking at the taxes paid to the U.S., not to other nations in the Americas. If we looked only at sales in the U.S., but added in the investment income I referred to earlier, the rate would be something like 47-48%. That's way above the (maximum) federal corporate tax rate of 35%.

Again, there's considerable nuance (e.g. relating to income recognition rules) that is being left out here. But the point remains: Apple doesn't (on-net) funnel profits from U.S. sales offshore in order to reduce its U.S. tax liability. The U.S. taxes that it pays effectively use a base that is actually significantly greater than the profits from its U.S. sales. That's to be expected based on some of that nuance that I referred to. Apple also pays U.S. taxes - so-called repatriation taxes - on some, though not the great majority of, its foreign earnings. In other words, it returns some of those earnings to the United States.

Turning to Apple's foreign taxes, and skipping over some of the detail (while using computations similar to those used above for domestic taxes), we get a supposed aggregate foreign tax rate for those 3 years of around 7-8% based on the profits from Apple's foreign sales. Combining quite high domestic (including state) income taxes with quite low foreign income taxes, over the last 3 fiscal years Apple paid $40.1 billion (net of deferred tax effects) in income taxes on $187.4 billion in total pre-tax income. That represents an effective tax rate of 21.4%. That's lower than Apple's reported effective tax rate (of around 26% for each of those years) due to not including deferred taxes that were accounted for.



The TL;DR takeaway: Apple doesn't for the most part using accounting tricks to funnel its U.S. earnings off-shore in order to avoid paying lots of U.S. federal income taxes. It actually pays very high U.S. taxes. It does, however, funnel a lot of its foreign earnings through jurisdictions with low effective tax rates in order to avoid paying lots of foreign income taxes. In recent years it's paid more than 3 times as much in domestic taxes as it has in foreign taxes even though its foreign revenues (and foreign segment earnings) have been close to twice as much as its domestic revenues (and domestic-sales-based earnings). Also, Apple does avoid paying even more domestic taxes by not remitting most of its foreign earnings - its legitimate foreign earnings, not earnings that are only foreign by way of clever accounting - to the United States (i.e. to the parent company from foreign subsidiaries).
 
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Why does Apple need to raise money? They have billions "in cash". Why borrow?

Many people who can afford to pay full price in cash for things like cars, homes, etc., choose to install finance or mortgage because simply it's advantageous to do so. When you pay something in full likely it comes out of your savings which is after paying off your income tax, whereas if you're paying off a loan, it's done pretax, so in the long run even though you're paying interest you come out ahead in more ways than one including help build or increase your credit.

I may have watered it down a bit, but it's just a byproduct of the very complicated tax laws. Even I do this, though at a smaller scale.
 
what are dividends and bonds for an amateur? lol

Dividends: cash payments made to stockholders by a company, usually quarterly, on a per-share basis. Apple's current dividend is $0.57 per share per quarter.

Bonds: loans made to a company by investors, usually paying a fixed interest rate over a number of years.
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Many people who can afford to pay full price in cash for things like cars, homes, etc., choose to install finance or mortgage because simply it's advantageous to do so. When you pay something in full likely it comes out of your savings which is after paying off your income tax, whereas if you're paying off a loan, it's done pretax, so in the long run even though you're paying interest you come out ahead in more ways than one including help build or increase your credit.

I may have watered it down a bit, but it's just a byproduct of the very complicated tax laws. Even I do this, though at a smaller scale.

The only loans that can be said to be repaid with pretax income are mortgages, because mortgage interest is deductible. Consumer loan interest used to be deductible but that allowance was ended a long time ago. So any loan other than a mortgage is repaid with taxed income. I am scratching my head as to the benefit of increasing credit, especially for people who don't need to borrow in the first place.

The first piece of advice you are likely to get from any financial advisor who is thinking of your interests instead of their own is to pay off your consumer debt before doing anything else.
 
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Tax holiday. Such a benign term for a gift to those who didn't pay their taxes and used those funds to extort the government into lowering rates before they would.

Government also carries blame for allowing delayed repatriation and not forcing repatriation. I hope the holiday closes the loophole without opening up two new ones.

What I think is hugely naive by many Trump supporters is the idea that these companies are going to magically invest that money into new factories in the United States to employ more people. Until the United States drops the 'strong dollar policy' and allow the currency to devalue and make American exports competitive then all these 'tax holidays' basically are is little more than pandering to a few rich elites because it avoids having to do some real structural economic reform. The American dollar is vasty overvalued for the basic economic fundamentals that face the country with the only thing propping it up are the credit ratings agency politically motivated reports that keep peddling the illusion that everything is as cool as a cucumber.
 
I'm not spinning anything, I really hate these new political terms that come out each week.

I'm saying it's the laws that allow avoidance. It's the laws that let those millionaires insure extreme padding for their next generation (Or just hoarding it for themselves). It's also the poorest class that takes in but only puts back a small amount into the pot.

It's the middle class who generally carries the brunt. The families like mine who have no kids because we know we can't afford it. Make just enough to not qualify for any government assistance. That and small business owners who usually get taxed to the death of their business leaving only huge corporations in their place.

Couldn't agree more.
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Dividends: cash payments made to stockholders by a company, usually quarterly, on a per-share basis. Apple's current dividend is $0.57 per share per quarter.

Bonds: loans made to a company by investors, usually paying a fixed interest rate over a number of years.
[doublepost=1486340334][/doublepost]

The only loans that can be said to be repaid with pretax income are mortgages, because mortgage interest is deductible. Consumer loan interest used to be deductible but that allowance was ended a long time ago. So any loan other than a mortgage is repaid with taxed income. I am scratching my head as to the benefit of increasing credit, especially for people who don't need to borrow in the first place.

The first piece of advice you are likely to get from any financial advisor who is thinking of your interests instead of their own is to pay off your consumer debt before doing anything else.

Is rent deductible?
 
Dividends: cash payments made to stockholders by a company, usually quarterly, on a per-share basis. Apple's current dividend is $0.57 per share per quarter.

Bonds: loans made to a company by investors, usually paying a fixed interest rate over a number of years.
[doublepost=1486340334][/doublepost]

The only loans that can be said to be repaid with pretax income are mortgages, because mortgage interest is deductible. Consumer loan interest used to be deductible but that allowance was ended a long time ago. So any loan other than a mortgage is repaid with taxed income. I am scratching my head as to the benefit of increasing credit, especially for people who don't need to borrow in the first place.

The first piece of advice you are likely to get from any financial advisor who is thinking of your interests instead of their own is to pay off your consumer debt before doing anything else.

If I'm earning 3% on the money in savings I lose that 3% as soon as the money comes out. If I take a loan for that same dollar value yet only pay 1.5% I keep 1.5%.
 
I always cringe when I hear someone say that corporations and those who make their money though investments don't lobby for and receive favored treatment in the tax code.

So yeah, intent matters. Intent is everything.
Agreed. Lots of money is spent to help elect legislators who are "friendly" to certain causes / industries. Sometimes a company may not spend any of their own money to influence legislation but they happen to be in an industry that gets favorable tax treatment due to lobbying efforts by others in the industry. Other times, companies benefit from personal connections to high ranking politicians who look out for them (i.e. Solyndra received $535,000,000 in federal loan guarantees from the Obama administration then went bankrupt).

My point was not that we have a perfect system. Rather, once a law is passed, you can't blame a company for following the law. Campaign finance and buying influence (by companies, unions or any other entity) is a whole other topic.
 
Is rent deductible?

Only if it's a business expense. Why that question?
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If I'm earning 3% on the money in savings I lose that 3% as soon as the money comes out. If I take a loan for that same dollar value yet only pay 1.5% I keep 1.5%.

Yes, this is known as opportunity cost, but your example is predicated on some unrealistic numbers. Consumer loans at 1.5% aren't available anymore except as special promotions from automakers, and when they offer them, they also offer equivalent value cash incentives. Secured market-rate consumer loans are now around 4%. Consumer credit is far more expensive than that. It quickly becomes pretty difficult to justify debt.
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Agreed. Lots of money is spent to help elect legislators who are "friendly" to certain causes / industries. Sometimes a company may not spend any of their own money to influence legislation but they happen to be in an industry that gets favorable tax treatment due to lobbying efforts by others in the industry. Other times, companies benefit from personal connections to high ranking politicians who look out for them (i.e. Solyndra received $535,000,000 in federal loan guarantees from the Obama administration then went bankrupt).

My point was not that we have a perfect system. Rather, once a law is passed, you can't blame a company for following the law. Campaign finance and buying influence (by companies, unions or any other entity) is a whole other topic.

I understand your point, but I don't see it as an entirely different subject. The tax code is a product of these influences, and will continue to be. I am not arguing that corporations should be volunteering to pay more, only that if the tax codes were not molded to their interests, they would be paying more.
 
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