Apple Releases Apple Maps Mobility Data Trends Tool to Help Mitigate COVID-19 Spread

[Rigby]

I wasn't replying to you about that. If you'd like to know what I was talking about, you're welcome to scroll back through the thread and read the responses that led to the comment you're addressing.

If you don't like responses, don't post in a public forum. So what were you talking about when you claimed that "Apple uses their phone to gather data"?

 

[Dave-Z]

As far as the billboards, it's a slogan, not a statement of absolute truth. When one goes to safari and one types: "www.google.com", in a technically accurate way, information is leaving the iphone with the users consent. To me there is no dichotomy with the Siri recordings. A slogan is still a slogan and doesn't render the slogan invalid whether contractors or employees listen to Siri recordings.

There's a huge difference between asking a computer something and being served an automated response, versus having a human being listen to what you, specifically, spoke.

If you don't like responses, don't post in a public forum. So what were you talking about when you claimed that "Apple uses their phone to gather data"?

I like responses just fine. I'm simply not going to repeat myself multiple times for no other reason than one random person doesn't want to tap the Up arrow a few times and spend five minutes reading words on a screen.

 

[I7guy]

There's a huge difference between asking a computer something and being served an automated response, versus having a human being listen to what you, specifically, spoke...

Agreed, but this verbiage (about humans listening to the recordings) was in the TOS. It was in the TOS and not readily apparent, which was part of the issue of why there was a bit of backlash. Apple changed the process, so some good came out of the backlash. Apple is huge and because some verbiage was buried, doesn't mean there was some malevolent intent.

 

[TiggrToo]

Agreed, but this verbiage (about humans listening to the recordings) was in the TOS. It was in the TOS and not readily apparent, which was part of the issue of why there was a bit of backlash. Apple changed the process, so some good came out of the backlash. Apple is huge and because some verbiage was buried, doesn't mean there was some malevolent intent.

Sadly a dumb mistake is seem by some folk as a nothing short of a international conspiracy.

 

[Gasu E.]

Like what, it’s clear if people are forced to work from home, public transport doesn’t run and people get fined if using cars, the number of people moving around will be lower.

"How much" lower matters. A 10% drop is far different from a 60% drop.

 

[I7guy]

[

That's not how it works. Google gives us a delete button and when we click it the data disappears. You're claiming it's actually still there, per forum rules you need to provide a source:



Google outlines how they retain my data here (notice I'm providing a source):

https://policies.google.com/technologies/retention

It's pretty clear that if I delete, for example, a question I asked Google Assistant, that such data is removed. Per that document, which details both data that is removed and data that is not.

Now you are telling me that's not the case. So, sure, if there's an active wire-tap in place, then obviously my data is not actually expunged. But to make a blanket statement that Google is retaining everything regardless of action on my part is a broad claim and requires a valid source.

Ok, I’m going to ensure this is an opinion. In my opinion, if law enforcement asks google for your activity using their products in the recent past, google will be able to provide that information even when you opt-out. The same way ones’ iCloud data can be turned over to law enforcement. Because your google data is in the cloud, imo, there is retention above and beyond the opt-out. Now the question is: is there a way to prove or disprove this opinion? Probably not by us mere mortals, sitting behind the keyboard, because the information provided by google with your own link is generic and supports my opinion.

 

[Marekul]

Ok, I’m going to ensure this is an opinion. In my opinion, if law enforcement asks google for your activity using their products in the recent past, google will be able to provide that information even when you opt-out. The same way ones’ iCloud data can be turned over to law enforcement. Because your google data is in the cloud, imo, there is retention above and beyond the opt-out. Now the question is: is there a way to prove or disprove this opinion? Probably not by us mere mortals, sitting behind the keyboard, because the information provided by google with your own link is generic and supports my opinion.
View attachment 906020

And in your opinion, apple does none of that?

 

[I7guy]

And in your opinion, apple does none of that?

What does none of that mean? The difference is with Apple the customer is not the product.

 

[Websnapx2]

One could make the same argument against Apple, though. For example, people who purchase an iPhone may not realize that when location services are turned on Apple uses their phone to gather data. Unaware iPhone users may not realize this is happening (A), they may not know they have control over it (B), and they may not know where those settings are on their phone (C).

You can't make the same argument, iOS tells you exactly what is happening as you set up the device, be it Siri recordings, Location data and how to know if your location is being tracked at a glance, health and research data, or Apple pay. Right as you set up it explains what it's doing, gives you the chance to opt-out right there and tells you how to opt-out later if you want to give it a try. None of that stuff is buried (they have a top-level category in settings called "privacy") and the stuff you can't find? It's because they aren't keeping it.

I really do not see the difference in this regard. If anything, Google and Microsoft (just to name a couple I've looked into) have much better tools for seeing what data they have about you, settings limits, as well as removing said data... Mostly because both of those two companies provide a section on their web site when you manage your account for seeing and managing this data. I'm not aware of Apple providing this short of them sending you a link with all your data (which would be tedious if you wanted to just check up on a few things), or providing you with a method to delete your entire account (which would be tedious because who wants to destroy and create an account everytime you want one or two things removed).

Google and Microsoft provide those settings because they actually keep that data, where as apple isn't collecting any of it - at least not tied to accounts. Most of their data, be it exchange keys for messages, direction lookups, even when you pay with Apple pay — they used anonymized keys generated by secure enclave on device and Apple doesn't keep any of it unless you tell them to in a backup.

My bigger issue is how they brag about privacy but let contractors listen to the recordings. It was only after they were caught did the implement additional measures.

So what about contractors — what's the difference? A contract is a contract... whether it be for term employment or long-term salary. If you think internal workers are more likely to keep that private how did Google, Samsung and Amazon stuff leak? Internally, that's how. Internal workers are no more loyal than contractors — it's the optics that "looked" bad but the reality is there just isn't a difference if the employee is hired to do a job, professionalism is still required. I don't see where the benefit of being internal comes into play. And if Contractors really are the sticking point for you, have that same energy with Microsoft as they did the same thing, and I'd be much more concerned with that considering the corporate and government contracts they have.

 

[Azrael9]

China not included. How interesting.

How ironic. I thought Apple could have tracked all those religious minorities in 're-education camps.'

'Chi-na.'

Azrael.
[automerge]1587040766[/automerge]

'Apple see customers as customers not products.'

We can keep telling ourselves that.

But Apple are more bothered about shareholders now than products or customers.

Looking at the pathetic updates to the iPad and Mac Mini. I don't see value for money. Only money for old rope.

And the recent move to sleep in bed with Google?

Or to cosey up with other tech' firms to censor certain 'non-mainstream' viewpoints ie de-platform people who's viewpoints we may not agree with. Who gets to decide what the 'truth' is? Cook? Government? Corporate backed Science? The CEOS of Twitter, Google, Facebook, YouTube, Apple... It's become quite a cosy little club, eh?

*Long silver spoons. I remember that being asked of Apple's leadership under Amelio.

Apple are no better than M$ with iMacs. M$ spanked them with the Studio desktop.

Apple harvest data for their own profits to benefit shareholders rather than the customer. 'You' really are the product when it comes to subscriptions and endless direct debits.

Apple have cheap labour in Chi-na. Whilst selling products for a premium. But having a nickle and dime upsell with models that are gimped to get you to fork over $200 for 8 gigs of ram.

Jobs said innovate through a recession. (I do remember him saying that. But the iMac got jacked £300 here in the UK in 2008.)

Under the current recession, Cook has given us the iPad 'z' (uh-huh...), the Mac Mini (mini specs, true dat...) and the 'warmed over' SE.

These are 'basically' good concepts from when Jobs was around. A product guy. But the 'evolution' of the profit machine under Cook is marketing. A supply chain guy.

And yes, Apple teaming up with Google. Disgusting. They're into privacy...but happy to team with a company that isn't? What happened to Job's 'thermo nuclear' war with Google..? Apple are just another corporation. Tracking us 'for our own good'. Sure, they're all heart. What about our rights to privacy? Will owning a smartphone and tracking software be mandatory for us? Who gets to go out? Or use transport? Only those that have Gate's 'mandatory' vaccinations? Will we get 'down voted' if we don't have one? Will our health records be publicly available by then for 'our own good.'

Perhaps Cook should do a public march in Chi-na for those in the re-education camps or join some of their factory workers on a many long hour shift for what they are paid.

“Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”


Azrael.

 

[Dave-Z]

Ok, I’m going to ensure this is an opinion. In my opinion, if law enforcement asks google for your activity using their products in the recent past, google will be able to provide that information even when you opt-out. The same way ones’ iCloud data can be turned over to law enforcement. Because your google data is in the cloud, imo, there is retention above and beyond the opt-out. Now the question is: is there a way to prove or disprove this opinion? Probably not by us mere mortals, sitting behind the keyboard, because the information provided by google with your own link is generic and supports my opinion.

Okay, fair enough. But now you're slightly transitioning what we were originally talking about. You said:

They don't remove the data, they only make it invisibile to you. There is a huge difference.

And I pointed you to a document in which Google says otherwise. Now with court orders of course that changes things. If Apple receives a court order for cloud data they also are obligated to wiretap or otherwise provide the data as well (just like Google is). The point I was making was that Google provides a clear way to remove the data it has on you, which the document I provided supports.

You can't make the same argument, iOS tells you exactly what is happening as you set up the device, be it Siri recordings, Location data and how to know if your location is being tracked at a glance, health and research data, or Apple pay. Right as you set up it explains what it's doing, gives you the chance to opt-out right there and tells you how to opt-out later if you want to give it a try. None of that stuff is buried (they have a top-level category in settings called "privacy") and the stuff you can't find? It's because they aren't keeping it.

Nothing you mentioned counters what I wrote. Also, when setting up a Google Pixel users are provided similar options for location, data sharing, etc.:

So what about contractors — what's the difference? A contract is a contract... whether it be for term employment or long-term salary. If you think internal workers are more likely to keep that private how did Google, Samsung and Amazon stuff leak? Internally, that's how. Internal workers are no more loyal than contractors — it's the optics that "looked" bad but the reality is there just isn't a difference if the employee is hired to do a job, professionalism is still required. I don't see where the benefit of being internal comes into play. And if Contractors really are the sticking point for you, have that same energy with Microsoft as they did the same thing, and I'd be much more concerned with that considering the corporate and government contracts they have.

I think you missed what I was saying here. Again, I don't fault Apple that a contractor violated their work agreements. I would not fault Apple if an individual Apple employee did the same. Neither is Apple's fault. My concern is one that @I7guy summed up nicely:

this verbiage (about humans listening to the recordings) was in the TOS. It was in the TOS and not readily apparent, which was part of the issue of why there was a bit of backlash.

Apple was "transparent" in as much as many other companies are (which is to say, not really) because they buried the fact that humans listen somewhere in a legal document that normal people either don't read or cannot understand. Instead of just being more open about it. Things changed and like i7guy said, they are for the better now. Personally, I find the changes inadequate, which is why I simply keep Siri turned off.

Google and Microsoft provide those settings because they actually keep that data, where as apple isn't collecting any of it - at least not tied to accounts. Most of their data, be it exchange keys for messages, direction lookups, even when you pay with Apple pay — they used anonymized keys generated by secure enclave on device and Apple doesn't keep any of it unless you tell them to in a backup.

I will agree with you that Google and Microsoft use the data differently than Apple. However, how you present Apple handling data is not entirely accurate and there is plenty of data that is stored on Apple servers for which Apple does hold the encryption key. You can see this from Apple's own support document on the matter:

iCloud data security overview - Apple Support (CA)

iCloud uses strong security methods, employs strict policies to protect your information, and leads the industry in using privacy-preserving security technologies like end-to-end encryption for your data.

support.apple.com

My original comment that you are replying to was that Microsoft and Google provide options for managing that data and that it would be nice if the data that is store on Apple's servers were available for viewing on a single web site or page, with the option to review and delete individual portions, or set limits on how long that data is kept.

 

[I7guy]

Okay, fair enough. But now you're slightly transitioning what we were originally talking about. You said:



And I pointed you to a document in which Google says otherwise. Now with court orders of course that changes things. If Apple receives a court order for cloud data they also are obligated to wiretap or otherwise provide the data as well (just like Google is). The point I was making was that Google provides a clear way to remove the data it has on you, which the document I provided supports.

What I said dovetails perfectly with the link you provided. To me it's common sense that for example, ne'er do wells cannot erase their tracks using a cloud based service to gather information to commit a crime.

I think you missed what I was saying here. Again, I don't fault Apple that a contractor violated their work agreements. I would not fault Apple if an individual Apple employee did the same. Neither is Apple's fault. My concern is one that @I7guy summed up nicely:



Apple was "transparent" in as much as many other companies are (which is to say, not really) because they buried the fact that humans listen somewhere in a legal document that normal people either don't read or cannot understand. Instead of just being more open about it. Things changed and like i7guy said, they are for the better now. Personally, I find the changes inadequate, which is why I simply keep Siri turned off.

I don't think Apple did this with malice, but rather they are so big that where things were place just got stuck without any forethought.

As for Siri, I understand and YMMV.

 

[Websnapx2]

Nothing you mentioned counters what I wrote. Also, when setting up a Google Pixel users are provided similar options for location, data sharing, etc.:

Yes, it does — you said that information was buried, or not accessible and I mentioned that it's not buried, it's presented to you in the device set up, and it is in a top-level selection in "settings". As far a the Pixel is concerned, that's great — but not indicative of the whole android experience so while I'm impressed that Google themselves did that, the Pixel is not a high enough volume device to represent what most Android users are experiencing. Whereas the iOS setup is the same for every device across the board.

Apple was "transparent" in as much as many other companies are (which is to say, not really) because they buried the fact that humans listen somewhere in a legal document that normal people either don't read or cannot understand. Instead of just being more open about it. Things changed and like i7guy said, they are for the better now. Personally, I find the changes inadequate, which is why I simply keep Siri turned off.

Here is the thing — and everyone with some light knowledge of AI, machine learning and computer science, in general, knows that an AI system cannot test its self — it needs humans listening to samples to know if what is being said is being understood by the system, and to what degree of accuracy. It's not a fault — it's a safeguard. Facebook had tried to have two nodes of AI instruct each other and it ended disastrously. It started to develop a shorthand "language" that the developers couldn't understand so they had to pull the plug (this is a leaked and well-documented story), damn near almost became SkyNet.

You need people to listen to AI and every company — every company in AI — does this and will continue to do this, the problem is that they don't know (or care, possibly) that others outside of tech don't know and never took it upon themselves to educate them. That's the transparency part I have an issue with. Sure the ToS mentions it but no one reads those so if you think (as a company) that location tracking is important enough to make a high level, customer-facing explanation in the setup about what is happening with location tracking on an iPhone, you should do it with Human reviewing of Siri as well — all the companies should have but didn't. I will say though, the way Apple did it was smart — randomized samplings of a percentage point of the total amount of requests Siri gets (something like 0.01%). None of it was identifiable unless someone said something identifiable in the clip (the files were hashed and identifying markers beyond when it was recorded and on what type of device (not THE device) for diagnostics, but that's it).

I will agree with you that Google and Microsoft use the data differently than Apple. However, how you present Apple handling data is not entirely accurate and there is plenty of data that is stored on Apple servers for which Apple does hold the encryption key. You can see this from Apple's own support document on the matter:

iCloud data security overview - Apple Support (CA)

iCloud uses strong security methods, employs strict policies to protect your information, and leads the industry in using privacy-preserving security technologies like end-to-end encryption for your data.

support.apple.com

My original comment that you are replying to was that Microsoft and Google provide options for managing that data and that it would be nice if the data that is store on Apple's servers were available for viewing on a single web site or page, with the option to review and delete individual portions, or set limits on how long that data is kept.

So when Apple said everything that's on your phone stays on your phone is correct, but the left out the one caveat — that it's only accurate when you don't have iCloud backup on. The data it keeps is not them storing as you use but rather storing when you back up. So Apple has keys for instance to your encrypted Messages, but only if you back up to iCloud — if you don't, they don't. It's in that link you provided. So while apple does have some of your data it's not taking it/keeping it while you use it but when you back up. if you turn off iCloud back up (and delete it), it no longer holds that data. Same with Siri — you can opt-out of sampling review, turn off Siri using location or turn Siri off altogether. You can even Delete your Siri/Dictation history at any time under Settings>Siri and Search>Siri & Dictation History. There are no granular settings for reviewing Data because that's not how it stores it. They still have it — and if they needed to due to a warrant much of it can be accessed, but if you turn the backup off, or any of the more granular settings in AppleID>iCloud>Apps Using iCloud, that data is no longer stored by Apple. You are assuming Apple holds granular nodes on data when it doesn't — it grabs encrypted bulk for backup and that is why you don't get itemized portions.

 

[Dave-Z]

you said that information was buried, or not accessible and I mentioned that it's not buried, it's presented to you in the device set up, and it is in a top-level selection in "settings".

The context of my comment was not the initial setup of the device. It's after people have been using it and perhaps have become more educated and want to change things. It's possible I was not clear and perhaps should have mentioned that I was not talking about pulling a new device out of a box, instead I was talking about using a device and wanting to manage settings; this was how the conversation progressed from the beginning. It was only after you mentioned the initial setup that I addressed how Google's device also operate in a similar manner to Apple's.

You can even Delete your Siri/Dictation history at any time under Settings>Siri and Search>Siri & Dictation History.

That doesn't sound like it's easy to find since it's separate from that "top-level Privacy" setting you mentioned:

it's presented to you in the device set up, and it is in a top-level selection in "settings"

they have a top-level category in settings called "privacy")

You just proved my point that Apple doesn't provide a single place to manage this, which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

As far a the Pixel is concerned, that's great — but not indicative of the whole android experience

Except that I never talked about the whole Android eco-system (or Android at all, until you mentioned initial device setup). I only ever mentioned Google and Microsoft.

So when Apple said everything that's on your phone stays on your phone is correct, but the left out the one caveat — that it's only accurate when you don't have iCloud backup on. The data it keeps is not them storing as you use but rather storing when you back up.

That is not true. The support document and Apple's white papers on the issue state otherwise.

Edit: I mean, I don't know how Apple could make it more clear. In that support document when Apple says "end-to-end" encryption, that means they're using public/private key cryptography. Each Apple device encrypts data for each other Apple device using the other devices' public keys, then sends it to those devices through Apple's servers. Only the recipient device's private key can decrypt the data. That's excellent; industry-standard strong, etc. In fact, while I do not use it, their implementation of iCloud Keychain is rock-solid and probably one of the best in the industries for doing that type of thing (assuming that their white paper on it is factual).

The rest of the data is "transport" encrypted. Just like when you do online banking or even post on the MacRumors forums. The session is encrypted between your computer and the web site so no one can eavesdrop or manipulate the data in a useful manner. Once the data is received it's basically readable by anyone or anything. Apple then stores that data on file systems that are encrypted (similar to how you can use File Vault on macOS), so that if some rogue staff member at a data center pulls out a drive they can't actually use the data on it, but Apple's servers can easily read and write to it. This is how things like iCloud Calendar and Reminders work and it helps you access your data from a web interface.

 

[Tech198]

The bad of using these informative tools oversees the good.

 

[Websnapx2]

The context of my comment was not the initial setup of the device. It's after people have been using it and perhaps have become more educated and want to change things. It's possible I was not clear and perhaps should have mentioned that I was not talking about pulling a new device out of a box, instead I was talking about using a device and wanting to manage settings; this was how the conversation progressed from the beginning. It was only after you mentioned the initial setup that I addressed how Google's device also operate in a similar manner to Apple's.

It was correct regardless of your context as it is presented to initial set up, but also after a new update is installed (it still tells you and gives you the option to adjust it, or get more information. Regardless the info is still "top-level" in the settings.

That doesn't sound like it's easy to find since it's separate from that "top-level Privacy" setting you mentioned

it says "Siri and Search" as a top-level setting.

You just proved my point that Apple doesn't provide a single place to manage this, which is what I have been saying from the beginning.

Not in the least — why would it be in a single place? They are separate settings. The Siri setting is top level, you don't need to look.

Except that I never talked about the whole Android eco-system (or Android at all, until you mentioned initial device setup). I only ever mentioned Google and Microsoft.

That's convenient — especially since both Google still has control over how Android AND non-google devices are both the way the majority of Android users give up data to Google. It may not be their devices, but they very much still have a say on how that info is presented.

That is not true. The support document and Apple's white papers on the issue state otherwise.

Edit: I mean, I don't know how Apple could make it more clear. In that support document when Apple says "end-to-end" encryption, that means they're using public/private key cryptography. Each Apple device encrypts data for each other Apple device using the other devices' public keys, then sends it to those devices through Apple's servers. Only the recipient device's private key can decrypt the data. That's excellent; industry-standard strong, etc. In fact, while I do not use it, their implementation of iCloud Keychain is rock-solid and probably one of the best in the industries for doing that type of thing (assuming that their white paper on it is factual).

You are not reading it correctly and many articles have desiminated the information to show that because Apple had your password (so that you can retrieve access to your account in you lose it) that that means they have access to your Keychain contents if it is being backed up to iCloud. Your keys are in that backup. Check it again. It is still way better than the general competition, but Apple does have access to the keys on the server — they just don't keep a copy for themselves, they (backup) keep a copy for you, of which they have access.

The rest of the data is "transport" encrypted. Just like when you do online banking or even post on the MacRumors forums. The session is encrypted between your computer and the web site so no one can eavesdrop or manipulate the data in a useful manner. Once the data is received it's basically readable by anyone or anything. Apple then stores that data on file systems that are encrypted (similar to how you can use File Vault on macOS), so that if some rogue staff member at a data center pulls out a drive they can't actually use the data on it, but Apple's servers can easily read and write to it. This is how things like iCloud Calendar and Reminders work and it helps you access your data from a web interface.

This, I agree with.

 

[Dave-Z]

It was correct regardless

Perhaps, but it wasn't what I was talking about.

Not in the least

Absolutely does because it was what I was talking about.

That's convenient

Not at all because it wasn't what I was talking about.

You can introduce new facets into the conversation then point out that you are right, but I've only ever been arguing my original comments, not the new things you or others are introducing to obfuscate the conversation.

You are not reading it correctly

Below is a link to Apple security web site. They used to have everything in a single PDF (which I found elsewhere online but it's several years old now) but it seems they've moved it to a web site that's broken down into seemingly countless pages separated by subject.

Apple Platform Security

Learn how security is implemented in Apple hardware, software, apps, and services.

support.apple.com

The keychain example I provided was to illustrate how end-to-end encryption works, not to argue about iCloud backups. If anything, my point is that even with iCloud Backups off, not everything is end-to-end encrypted, which is true.