Apple Releases Dual Core PowerMac G5s

[Harthansen]

PCIe should be the new AGP not the new PCI

Yeah my last post was long, sorry. I didn't realize it until you push the post button. This is a little big too but I have to reply to a few people. I spread it out better just for "combatcolin". You know structure.

do me a favor, go quote a DELL with the same specs as the Quad G5 and let me know what you come up with. I think you will see what i mean. You cant get a dual dual core machine thru DELL for $3300, no matter how you try, it will be much more.

First off Dell Just offered a dual core Pentium 2.8ghz for under $700, not more then a week ago. While dell has not started to offer dual dual core machines. You can buy 4 1/2 for the same price as the mac. Not to mention you can buy a dual core Pentium-D 2.8 GHZ processor for $280 ish. It fits in most 775 LGA motherboards. So you can buy a $300 Dell and upgrade it your self for an extra $280 Total cost $580 plus dell shipping costs. (Yes the cheap Dell $300-$350 model has LGA socket. It has major corners cut but it still has a LGA socket.)

I build PC systems, and design mac systems and I would never trade the value of OS-X for anything. I can't wait for OS-X 10.5 and intel compatablility, because weather or not Steve Jobs releases OS-X for PC's

He is throwing away billions of dollars if he doesn't, because it is the only thing keeping windows as crappy as it is and as popular as it is. The fact you can not buy OS-X for your Dell's or other PC's becauise after people get over the learning curve the will jump windows ship like flea off a dog that just got sprayed. When 10.5 comes out there will be cracks available to put it on your PC (even with Intels Processor DRM) and I will build the most kick ass mac ever invented that will dual boot to windows (I need windows for work sometimes, and of course Games. I will still keep a real mac as well, but I know I could build a better fastest x86 mac then Apple will put out. Especially dollar for dollar. Hell these days any $3300 computer should com with a hi-end video card standard, and macs never do.

"andiwm2003" Apple had control weather or not they put out 3 Dual-Dual Core machines or 1. IBM just controled the maxium speed, and cost. This was suppose to be the last great powermac update until Mac-Intel, and there is no reason they shouldn't of had at least 2 quad machines! Even if one was a quad 2.0GHZ. I wanted to buy one while the finished getting all the bugs out of the mac Intel systems. God knows they will be too buggy or slow for the first year.

"Cr2sh" I am lost as to the meaning of your post. Pro tools will not be releasing their very expensive PCIe solutions until after macworld. Probally March or April 2006.

And PCIe other then the one 16x video card slot is a useless new technology the has no support from thrid party manufactures or even from Apple for that matter. Even pro-tools said it was a dumb move on Apple's part. They are only making audio cards for apple because PC don't use PCIe, except for video card and hard to find, and more expensive the PCI, PCIe 1x cards for things like modems. The should of supported PCI-X and continued to support it for years. Esp. after most people just upgraded to the new to apple technology. Apple basically was the first ot put it out there as a standard. PCIe has only just became a standard for video cards. When AGP came out you didn't see computers with all AGP slots.
PCI-X is backwards compatible and they should of devolped that technology improved whatever flaws it had. Instead of jumping ship to a new untested (except video) technology.

-Hart H

 

[cr2sh]

"Cr2sh" I am lost as to the meaning of your post. Pro tools will not be releasing their very expensive PCIe solutions until after macworld. Probally March or April 2006.

And PCIe other then the one 16x video card slot is a useless new technology the has no support from thrid party manufactures or even from Apple for that matter. Even pro-tools said it was a dumb move on Apple's part. They are only making audio cards for apple because PC don't use PCIe, except for video card and hard to find, and more expensive the PCI, PCIe 1x cards for things like modems. The should of supported PCI-X and continued to support it for years. Esp. after most people just upgraded to the new to apple technology. Apple basically was the first ot put it out there as a standard. PCIe has only just became a standard for video cards. When AGP came out you didn't see computers with all AGP slots.
PCI-X is backwards compatible and they should of devolped that technology improved whatever flaws it had. Instead of jumping ship to a new untested (except video) technology.

PCIe-compatible Pro Tools|HD core systems are scheduled to ship before the end of this year and will be sold at the same price as their existing PCI counterparts. Digidesign will offer a cross-grade program for PCI users who wish to switch to a PCIe solution. Full details and pricing of this offer will be communicated soon.

You keep stating things as fact, that are clearly incorrect. How can your opionion be of any value.. if all your facts are wrong to begin with? Comparing AGP to PCI-Express is just ridiculous... also is your insistance that Apple stay the course of a costly and poor transitional solution such a PCI-X, when Express is the correct answer.

Might I suggest you browse this ars technica article?

As of 2005, PCI Express appears to be well on its way to becoming the new backplane standard in personal computers. There are several explanations for this, but the principal reason is it was designed to be completely transparent to software developers (an operating system designed for PCI can boot in a PCI Express system without any code modification). Other secondary reasons include its enhanced performance and strong brand recognition.

All new graphics cards from both ATI Technologies and NVIDIA use PCI Express. Most new Gigabit Ethernet chips and some 802.11 wireless chips also use PCI Express. Other hardware such as RAID controllers and network cards are also starting to make the switch.

In 2005 Apple updated both the consumer iMac and workstation PowerMac to use PCI Express exclusively, supplanting the AGP and PCI-X connectivity they had before.

 

[andiwm2003]

.....................................
"andiwm2003" Apple had control weather or not they put out 3 Dual-Dual Core machines or 1. IBM just controled the maxium speed, and cost. This was suppose to be the last great powermac update until Mac-Intel, and there is no reason they shouldn't of had at least 2 quad machines! Even if one was a quad 2.0GHZ. I wanted to buy one while the finished getting all the bugs out of the mac Intel systems. God knows they will be too buggy or slow for the first year.
................................-Hart H

i also had hope they go quad core on all new powermacs. but i guess the ibm chips are simply too expensive.

my guess is anyway that the revenue on the quad is very low. apple wanted to have a flagship powermac. the 2.3 and 2.0 powermacs IMHO represent more the real price/performance that apple can offer in the moment.

as for the pci-express: apple always had changed their technology very rapidly with little regard to backwards compatibility. so i'm not surprised that they ditch the pci-x. at least they offer the dual g5 2.7. so nobody is really left behind. it's just painfully expensive for some people who have to buy two macs in a short time.

 

[Harthansen]

You keep stating things as fact, that are clearly incorrect. How can your opionion be of any value.. if all your facts are wrong to begin with? Comparing AGP to PCI-Express is just ridiculous... also is your insistance that Apple stay the course of a costly and poor transitional solution such a PCI-X, when Express is the correct answer.
]

Dude I am an IT engineeer, I design and build Mac and PC systems and repair them. I am a large stockholder of Mac and follow all rumors and devolpment of all mac lines, like a Baseball card collector. I think I have proven that I know what I am tlaking about I have read about it and seen it in the real world put to test.
I read that Pro tools wasn't going to have something for sale until Mid-Spring 2006. They would show it off at Mac World but it would not be available for sale until April or may, maybe an E3 release. If you read something different it is only as reliable as the source. Maybe my source is right maybe yours is. Maybe your is trying to get peple excited about their product and then not meet there release date, I.T. companies almost never meet there release dates.
Case and point, Apple was suppose to have a 3.0 dual core G5 machines a year ago and they are a reliable source. Now they probally never will. I don't mean to sound like I know everything because I don't. I only know what I read and I read alot in the electronics, PC and especially mac arena. Some of my sources may not keep their words but I am not making up this sh^t as I go.

YOU ARE RIGHT PCIe IS THE FUTURE THE DISTANT FUTURE. THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY NEEDS TO BE GIVEN TO THE THRID PARTY MAKERS A YEAR IN ADVANCE. SO AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES OUT THERE ARE ALL THE BASICS IN pci CARDS, COVERED IN PCIe CARD EXPANSION, SO AT LEAST YOU CAN UPGRADE IF YOU WANT TO.
---OK HERE I S A POLL QUESTION -----
"DO YOU THINK IT WOULD OF BEEN A BETTER MOVE OF APPLE TO PUT 2 PCIE 16X SLOTS (OR EVEN ONE 16X AND ONE 8X PCIe SLOT) IN THERE NEW POWERMACS, AND INCLUDE TWO PCI-X SLOTS SO THAT CURRENT USERS CAN CONTINUE TO USE THERE CURRENT EXPENSIVE PCI-X OR PCI CARDS, WHILE UPGRADING TO THE NEW POWEREMACS?"

YOU CANNOT TELL ME THAT IT WAS THE WISEST MOVE OF APPLE. THEY WILL LOSE MAJOR SALES IN BOTH THE AUDIO AND VIDEO FIELDS. THESE PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE PCI CARD CONNOT UPGRADE AT ALL, VIDEO HAS SOME VERY LIMITED HD & SD CAPTURE CARDS BUT NO ACCELERATOR CARDS. THESE ARE MOSTLY NO NAME CARDS AVAILABLE MAYBE LIKE 4 TOTAL AND AUDIO HAS A PROMISE FROM PRO-TOOLS. WHICH MEANS APPLE SCREWED LOGIC OUT OF THE TOP END ARENAS, UNLESS THEY WILL BE RELEASING CODE NAME "ASTERIOD" THEIR AUDIO INFACE THING, AND IT WILL PROFESSIONAL ENOUGH, MAYBE FIREWIRE 800?

THERE IS NO REASON WHY THEY COULD OF NOT LEFT SOME BACKWARDS COMPATABILITY IN THEIR MACHINES. ESPECIALLY AFTER THEY JUST 2 YEARS AGO INTRODUCED IT AND MANUFACTURERS HAVE ONLY JUST NOW STARTED PUTTING OUT A DECENT AMOUNT OF CARDS THAT USE PCI-X. IN 2 MORE YEARS WILL APPLE JUMP ON SOME OTHER FASTER BAND WAGON?

Sorry about the caps I started doing it and I got too lazy to stop.

Apple has to introduce new technology gradulaly, what if they put in all Firewire 1600 slots in the macs all of them, and lets say they were not backwards compatibile with firewire 400 or 800, and to make it even you could no longer add extra firewire ports to your powermac for six months would that be a kick ass move on Apples part? It would cause a panic, and someone would get fired even if it was Steves fault. This of course is slightly more extreme then PCI being removed from all new powermacs. Someone will no doubt devolp a PCIe card with expansion box that will connect to an external box for PCI cards so companies can upgrade for less, but It won't be cheap and it will have to use the PCIe 8x.

-Hart H


BTW - Anyone know how a $250 x-box 360 has a three core 3.2GHZ G5 processor (minus Altivec) and Apple can only muster out a pitiful max speed of 2.7GHZ (with water cooling) and only Dual-Dual core machines maxed out at 2.5. , and they have to charge $3300 for one) I build PC systems, and design mac systems.

 

[horace]

Photosho

double post. the rage.....!

 

[Harthansen]

i also had hope they go quad core on all new powermacs. but i guess the ibm chips are simply too expensive.

my guess is anyway that the revenue on the quad is very low. apple wanted to have a flagship powermac. the 2.3 and 2.0 powermacs IMHO represent more the real price/performance that apple can offer in the moment.

as for the pci-express: apple always had changed their technology very rapidly with little regard to backwards compatibility. so i'm not surprised that they ditch the pci-x. at least they offer the dual g5 2.7. so nobody is really left behind. it's just painfully expensive for some people who have to buy two macs in a short time.

I see what you mean, but the dual 2.7 is an almost 1 year old computer, still at the same price or maybe at a $100 discount. There is no DDR2 or any enhancements. A one year old PC is worth 60% less unless it is a notebook then it is like 30-40%. Of course macs have a high resale, but they still drop. (You can buy a new Dual 2.7 on ebay for $2200 with extra RAM, buy Apple has it's old price.) PCI has been a standard for 15-20 years and for it just to go away with very little thiry party support to replace all that is lost by the departure. Pisses me off.

I just think they have been focusing on the iPod, the new iTunes interface, and, Selling TV shows. They need to put better people on their sagging hardware line. There software engineers are doing fine:OS-X, Final CUt Studio, Aperture, Logic, all nice programs. Now selling TV shows, which again is a huge move. I just hope they can hold on to it. They will have to offer some sort of tiered pricing for TV shows. When they start adding all the old shows like "I Dream of Jennie" they can't charge $1.99 per EP. for that. Maybe offer unlimited TV viewing like Napster is doing poorly. For $20-$30 a month, depending on how many new shows they have. If they can get 80% of the primetime line up, then it time for another Apple stock split probally two.

-Hart H

 

[horace]

One slot short of a slick mac...

Too true. I have 2 powercore PCI cards and a Hammerfall soundcard in my G4. I'm going to upgrade the processor rather than bother with a G5 now because Apple has decided that none of the music users are worthy of compatible kit. There are some OK firewire boxes out now but I'm not shelling out for new audio interfaces, new firewire powercores etc.

Apple, seriously, you buy Emagic, turn Logic into some half-cut-pro lookalike, then release a suite of machines that most pro audio users can't even use. Muppets. Not everybody plays games or renders dune buggies you know. Some of us make the sounds that come out of your banged up Nanos.....

OK. Calmer now.....

 

[~Shard~]

BTW - Anyone know how a $250 x-box 360 has a three core 3.2GHZ G5 processor (minus Altivec) and Apple can only muster out a pitiful max speed of 2.7GHZ (with water cooling) and only Dual-Dual core machines maxed out at 2.5. , and they have to charge $3300 for one) I build PC systems, and design mac systems.

That's an easy one - you are incorrect - the xbox 360 does not use G5 chips. They use PowerPC chips, but not G5s. Plus, the way those things are coded, there is no way you would want an xbox 360 or PS3 CELL chip in a Mac. Trust me.

 

[cr2sh]

"DO YOU THINK IT WOULD OF BEEN A BETTER MOVE OF APPLE TO PUT 2 PCIE 16X SLOTS (OR EVEN ONE 16X AND ONE 8X PCIe SLOT) IN THERE NEW POWERMACS, AND INCLUDE TWO PCI-X SLOTS SO THAT CURRENT USERS CAN CONTINUE TO USE THERE CURRENT EXPENSIVE PCI-X OR PCI CARDS, WHILE UPGRADING TO THE NEW POWEREMACS?"[/B]

YOU CANNOT TELL ME THAT IT WAS THE WISEST MOVE OF APPLE. THEY WILL LOSE MAJOR SALES IN BOTH THE AUDIO AND VIDEO FIELDS. THESE PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE PCI CARD CONNOT UPGRADE AT ALL, VIDEO HAS SOME VERY LIMITED HD & SD CAPTURE CARDS BUT NO ACCELERATOR CARDS.

The apple store has quad core 2.5's with pci-e and dual 2.7's with pci-x.

This insistance of yours that NO ONE CAN UPGRADE. Is just silly.

Apple doesn't have faster chips then the ones included in the pci-x machine. The solution to the problem is still there and while the pro community has a choice to make... there is clearly a path that apple is forcing. It is the right move and it's the one intel has choosen - it is the future.

The idea that Apple is losing customers, tons of cash and all that noise, doesn't sound right. There are no faster chips...

You're right. Apple could have thrown in some PCIc and PCI-X slots into the quad.. but that would have been a "bit" of a mixed message and I'm sure folks would have been pissed now or then... either way. This is the clean break and the PCI-X dual 2.7's are still being sold.

Your (first?) post I agree with, in that these machines are not that much different then the old ones. Is it possible Apple is holding back the release of higher speed g5 chips so that when intels hit... folks will be slowing down from whatever is really available.

By the way, the "I'm an IT engineer" doesn't really strengthen your argument.

 

[HL-Audio]

are those cards not compatible with PCIe<-->PCI expansion chassis solutions?

I'm pretty sure they are. However, if I bought i.e. the PCI-X dual 2.7, which is quite a bit more expensive than my dual 2.0, there would be an urgent need for me to sell one of my kidneys to shell out something like $2000 for a Magma expansion box. In that case I'd be looking at a total around $5000. Seriously, I think my bank account would've imploded...

 

[groovebuster]

I'm pretty sure they are. However, if I bought i.e. the PCI-X dual 2.7, which is quite a bit more expensive than my dual 2.0, there would be an urgent need for me to sell one of my kidneys to shell out something like $2000 for a Magma expansion box. In that case I'd be looking at a total around $5000. Seriously, I think my bank account would've imploded...

1. There isn't any PCIe <-> PCI expansion box solution so far... but I am pretty sure that there will be one soon.

2. Don't make up fairy-tales about the price... The most expenisve expansion box they offer is a 13(!!!)-Slot box for 1,885.-€! An (ugly) 7-slot box costs less than 1.000.-€.

3. I always wonder what kind of supa-dupa audio productions all people always seem to make that need the newest and fastest gear all the time... Can I hear some of them? When you are a pro, 5,000$ for new hardware are not the end of the world. Hardware costs are your least concern, there are many more things that are way more expensive. And if you are not a pro I really do wonder why it is necessary to have the biggest machine you can get? Just for the bragging rights? You really need to upgrade in an instant, just because there is a machine out now that is 60% faster? Come on... Get a Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac an be happy for a few years.

4. If money is really that much of a concern you can still sell your curreent Mac. I am pretty sure that for a Dual 2.5Ghz G5 you still do get good money...

Regards,

groovebuster

 

[HL-Audio]

1. There isn't any PCIe <-> PCI expansion box solution so far... but I am pretty sure that there will be one soon.

2. Don't make up fairy-tales about the price... The most expenisve expansion box they offer is a 13(!!!)-Slot box for 1,885.-€! An (ugly) 7-slot box costs less than 1.000.-€.

Well, your right... but someone certainly got som really concrete plans though:

http://www.mobl.com/expansion/products/pcie_expansion/6slot/index.html

That's the only one I've looked at because I know they're supposed to be compatible with macs. And the price for that one is $2000.

3. I always wonder what kind of supa-dupa audio productions all people always seem to make that need the newest and fastest gear all the time... Can I hear some of them? When you are a pro, 5,000$ for new hardware are not the end of the world. Hardware costs are your least concern, there are many more things that are way more expensive. And if you are not a pro I really do wonder why it is necessary to have the biggest machine you can get? Just for the bragging rights? You really need to upgrade in an instant, just because there is a machine out now that is 60% faster? Come on... Get a Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac an be happy for a few years.

Come on, man!! If you read my two previous posts you would se that I just upgraded from a five and a half year old g4 400 to the previous 2 GHz g5. It's about keeping the business up and running. And as far as I can see after doing some testing yesterday, a dual 2 will provide plenty of power for the next few years.

BTW

I do make a living out of recording artists, hence: I consider myself as a pro. But the studio I own can't defend prices that would make $5000 a small part of my budget, but I'm getting there...

 

[groovebuster]

Well, your right... but someone certainly got som really concrete plans though:

http://www.mobl.com/expansion/products/pcie_expansion/6slot/index.html

That's the only one I've looked at because I know they're supposed to be compatible with macs. And the price for that one is $2000.

Oh... must have missed that one. But its a relatively new product then, The price will come down in the next few months...

Come on, man!! If you read my two previous posts you would se that I just upgraded from a five and a half year old g4 400 to the previous 2 GHz g5. It's about keeping the business up and running. And as far as I can see after doing some testing yesterday, a dual 2 will provide plenty of power for the next few years.

You see, that's what I am talking about! A mid-size studio is still pretty well off with the last revision of Dual G5s. And in a few years PCIe will be standard all over the place and you'll get all the stuff you want and need at modest price points, even if you really need to buy an expansion box in case you want to keep some old legacy hardware...

A good friend is a music prodcuer and he was running his (home-) studio on a 2x800MHz G4 until not long ago. You should see the magic he did with that machine even though it was an old POS. Now he finally upgraded to a G5 because he was starting to hit into walls (performance-wise) constantly with the things he needed to do for an LG commercial. He has a Dual 2.7GHz G5 and is a very happy camper again.

I just find it funny how often I hear that the current (now last) G5s were not fast enough for the audio productions of small and mid-size studios and I can't hear it anymore, because it is just not true... sorry, if I became a little bit too personal.

BTW

I do make a living out of recording artists, hence: I consider myself as a pro. But the studio I own can't defend prices that would make $5000 a small part of my budget, but I'm getting there...

But you said yourself that you are happy with your DP2GHz G5. So what's the problem then? You got waht you need and when the time has come that you need hardware that is performing better the market will have changed anyway already again...

It's all good!

Grüße

groovebuster

 

[dosers]

Quadro 4500 - no reason it would NOT work well with games

Well - but that doesn't make sense though:
I agree, the price premium on the Quadro 'just' for games is crazy - but there is NO reason it would not perform very well with them. This is basically a 7800 GTX card with 512MB frame buffer. On the PC side, the drivers are usually different. There are some hardware acceleration features that games would not use. But there is NOTHING on this card that would 'prevent' it from being a great game card - certainly better than the 7800 GT. The question is, is beinf 10%-20$ better worth $1300 ?! Probably not, if it's gaming you are after..

Cheers,
dan

That's correct, the Quadra is the first workstation graphic card for the Mac. From Apple's site:





Yes, I'd agree with that - the Quadra is not exactly optimized for games from the looks of it, and gamers would be better off with, as you say, the 7800, I'm thinking. But man that Quadra looks amazing....

 

[combatcolin]

Ah, thats better Harthansen.

And, while PCI X isn't really going anywhere, cutting the bog standard PCI slots rom the new PM is a step too far.

They may be slow, but they get the job done and give you a huge smount of flexibility.

 

[giles117]

Well SBS and MAgma have solutions PCIe to PCI.

My DP 2.0 is adequete for now. I did order a Quad and will grab an expansion chassis. I sold my old PCI to PCI expansion chassis to make room for the new one.

Challenging, yes, but I like the clean break.

 

[andiwm2003]

..............................
__________________
1 - Dual 2.0 G5 1.5GB Ram, 2-160GB HD 3-250GB HD
1 - Single 1.6 Ghz, 2 GB Ram, 1- 250GB HD
1 - 450Mhz G3, 768MB, 30GB HD
1 - 350Mhz G3 512MB, 9GB HD
1 - 333Mhz imac G3, 192MB, 6GB HD

Old as Dirt

1 - LCII 68030 15Mhz, 16MB
1 - IIvx 68030 30Mhz, 64MB w/ 50Mhz Daystar Digital Upgrade
1 - Performa 6400 130Mhz, 128MB
1 - IIfx
1 - SE30
1 - Color Classic

could you post a picture of all of your macs lined up as soon as your quad is there?

 

[Sunrunner]

1. There isn't any PCIe <-> PCI expansion box solution so far... but I am pretty sure that there will be one soon.

2. Don't make up fairy-tales about the price... The most expenisve expansion box they offer is a 13(!!!)-Slot box for 1,885.-€! An (ugly) 7-slot box costs less than 1.000.-€.

3. I always wonder what kind of supa-dupa audio productions all people always seem to make that need the newest and fastest gear all the time... Can I hear some of them? When you are a pro, 5,000$ for new hardware are not the end of the world. Hardware costs are your least concern, there are many more things that are way more expensive. And if you are not a pro I really do wonder why it is necessary to have the biggest machine you can get? Just for the bragging rights? You really need to upgrade in an instant, just because there is a machine out now that is 60% faster? Come on... Get a Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac an be happy for a few years.

4. If money is really that much of a concern you can still sell your curreent Mac. I am pretty sure that for a Dual 2.5Ghz G5 you still do get good money...

Regards,

groovebuster

I dont even begin to understand how a small speed bump is a big deal for one of these companies.... it doesnt seem to justify the expense to a new system...