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Apple Releases MacBook Air Software Update
- Thread starter bobsaget611
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EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
Sweet lord ...
OK, I appreciate your attitude 🙄😀
In a sense - everybody does this, as this is done on CPU itself
OS can only alter it a bit, and it's not "permitted", as this will void Intel's warranty.
Think of it as a car, e.g. BMW 335i, say you have 60K warranty & 150MPH top speed.
You bet, if you run at 150MPH all the time, it would fall apart far sooner than 60K miles.
And if BMW will honor your warranty is another matter.
BTW, BMW has this mode (sorry, don't remember terminology) - when after a dash of autocross on a hot day, it becomes "weak" 🙄😛
Wow, Never thought about it before, but it's exactly what core shutdown looks and feels like .... 😕😱😎😛🙄😀
P.S. it's not just Intel, it's AMD and PowerPC/G4 as well.
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
Thanks, I appreciate.
Don't want to be hostile or evil, but cant help getting mad sometimes ...
macsmurf
macrumors 65816
The last time I checked the OS actually had a lot of control over the throttling. I can find that for you if you like. Let me direct you to the Speedstep FAQ for the point I'm trying to make:
"By default, when the notebook computer is plugged in to the AC power, the processor will run in Maximum Performance mode and when it is running from the battery, the notebook will run in Battery Optimized Performance mode. If you wish to override this option and have it run at maximum performance at all times even when plugged into the battery, change both options to maximum Performance."
So, as you see, Speedstep is meant to be used to conserve power and not to make up for an inefficient heat dissipation system. Also, you can turn it off, and that won't void your warranty.
You really don't have to dumb it down, I'm quite capable of understanding these issues 🙂
A CPU is designed to run at 100% for years. To do this will not void your warranty, but using insufficient cooling may.
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
Well yeah, you might "argue" of course.
But nobody demoted "caveat emptor", so do your research.
They've done their "defense" for sure.
And BTW I don't believe it's a bad thing actually, just like with cars, I appreciate ability to occasionally spurt to 150 MPH, when it's only realistically reliably sustains half of that.
So, in parallel, CPU still allows you occasionally reach e.g. 1.6 Ghz 😛
And as a bonus few Core 2's even can spurt to ~5-10% over the "label" for quick stints, when second/other core is not under load.
macsmurf
macrumors 65816
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. CPUs can run at 100% for extended periods (years) of time with adequate cooling.
AppliedMicro
macrumors 68040
May I refer you to wikipedia quickly?
Sorry, this great late night movie has just started on TV, which I have been waiting for months (and it's a bit tedious for me, phrasing it all in English)
Thanks for understanding 😉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigabyte
Of course not.
Technically, it's a great thing.
I would, however, say that the advertising might be misleading for the less tech-savvy (but then... most of them would probably not really care or complain, would they?)
alphaod
macrumors Core
macsmurf
macrumors 65816
Sure, no problem. What I'm looking for is specific products that use throttling to make up for an insufficient cooling profile in contrast to how the technology is normally used (to conserve battery power). Unfortunately, wikipedia is not help here.
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
Yeah, now I see where you got it form 😉))))
It's Energy Saver 😉))))
From the works of it it feels like it has some effect on CPU regimes ...
I deduce it from Macbook being cooler when on battery (THOUGH! adapter and battery settings actually on custom with me).
It's as I've said some functions can be accessed by the externalities ...
But, CPU is a "foreign" part designed to support millions of hardware configs.
So all those functions implemented in CPU's own management, having real "last say".
(esp. in a potential danger situations)
... and with that I'm curious as to how much difference Apple can bring with that update, without Intel working out it's part ...
just not sure this issues could be really flashed like firmware.
Exactly, it runs 100% all the time, but this moment's 100% might be bit different from the previous one's.
And it's actually done to ensure reliability, and that they don't have to deal with warranty.
Yeah, it's done apparently without your knowledge 😛
Wake up already, it's been there for years, will be, and with Nehalem's "Turbo Mode" going to be even more treacherous 😱😛😀
macsmurf
macrumors 65816
OK, I'm going to give you a quick summary and then re-iterate my question, just so you'll know what to focus on.
Power Management is a bit complex and different functions are done at different levels. The CPU handles exceptional cases and will shut down when the temperature reaches unsafe levels. A core shutdown is probably a result of such an exception. The BIOS (or EFI in Apple's case, I guess) can interface directly with the CPU and change the voltage and frequency of the CPU. How it does this is proprietary information and is only made available to BIOS engineers. However, the BIOS provides the OS with power states (AKA P-states), that can be changed to go from one profile to another. So an OS will typically have a set of P-states to choose from going from P0 (maximum performance) to Pn, where n is some natural number. Of course, the CPU can throw an exception at any time regardless of the setting and resume control.
Now, it is quite sensible to reduce power consumption when running on battery power. However, the user should of course have the option of running at full speed whenever he chooses. To use this functionality to avoid having to put a larger heatsink into the laptop is fair enough as long as you tell your customers about it.
So, the question still stands: Who does this? That is, who uses the technology to avoid using sufficient cooling, besides Apple?
I know of several laptops that allows you to disable Speedstep to the correct answer is not all of them. I suspect the correct answer is none, but I don't know, and apparently you don't either.
After update
Today all day i was looking for info about coolbook and read many info.
i found smcfancontrol to see my RPM of fan and temp of cores
all day, before restart (i installed update but didn't restart) i had 65-70С
after read all of these posts and other info about overheated cores and bad temperature system of air i restarted
1. after restart, kernel_task, as root process which control resources between cores and which stopped second core when it overhead earlier work very hard 10-15 minutes. very strange...OS was freeze(67-70C)
2. after kernel had stopped - os was working(64-67C), but more than 7 tabs in firefox did bad for temperature(67-68) and system freezed periodicaly (kernel_task ran more than 30-140% оf CPU)...i was sure that apple just made update for antistop second core and nothing for undervolting cores for temperature for better stability cores...and i was angry
3. and i turned off air, smoked sigarette and turn on once more
it is magic - now 52-56C. What happen?
It is good, but why?
Today all day i was looking for info about coolbook and read many info.
i found smcfancontrol to see my RPM of fan and temp of cores
all day, before restart (i installed update but didn't restart) i had 65-70С
after read all of these posts and other info about overheated cores and bad temperature system of air i restarted
1. after restart, kernel_task, as root process which control resources between cores and which stopped second core when it overhead earlier work very hard 10-15 minutes. very strange...OS was freeze(67-70C)
2. after kernel had stopped - os was working(64-67C), but more than 7 tabs in firefox did bad for temperature(67-68) and system freezed periodicaly (kernel_task ran more than 30-140% оf CPU)...i was sure that apple just made update for antistop second core and nothing for undervolting cores for temperature for better stability cores...and i was angry
3. and i turned off air, smoked sigarette and turn on once more
it is magic - now 52-56C. What happen?
It is good, but why?
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
You have this option by using 3rd party programs, Coolbook or SpeedIt on Mac. Coupled with fine(individually) tuned down-volting you can even have a stable machine running claimed speed 100% all the time.
BUT it's not the case with virtually ANY laptop out there, with off the shelf PC (Dell or Mac) you have variable Freq. & Voltage all the time. And you most certainly can find it somewhere in fine print, maybe not on Dell's or Apple's site, but Intel is a separate entity, still in this mix you call your laptop.
Everyone, that's why we don't see Coolboks of this world being widely adopted in wholesale production lines.
I'm not 100000% sure (don't want to search for EULAs for CPU), but I believe - you voiding yor warranty altering p-states and it's characteristics
It's just their (Dell, etc 🙂)) products bit more "lucky" with heat issues, and don't have this scope of media attention & users ignorance by the way.
It's not laptops who allow or deny "disabling" Speedstep.
You do it yourself, at your own risk using programs like Coolbook/NHC/etc
No, CPU manages all the cases, just on some of them it allows OS to have some say.
In fact you have interfaces to to CPU management open for 3rd party, which Coolbook, NHC, etc use to interfere with it's oparations.
No, OS doesn't handle P-states usually. It's Intel's developments, they want to keep it working under whatever OS you throw at it.
So this stuff managed by CPU itself, with allowances to be "suggested" by 3rd parties ...
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
I understand, that it probably might felt as deceiving, for someone who was happily owning - whatever the label said fast machine, to realize that you had only 50% of it 🙄
But look at that this way : guaranteed, always the same, no core shutdown performance might only yield you 500Mhz CPU, at this stage.
And if you factor in stability and SAME performance when you use your machine lying in the bed, with thick wool blanket being the base for MBA, you'd have 200Mhz guaranteed.
And no fan vents to make your life even better in this fast lane 😀😀😀
But look at that this way : guaranteed, always the same, no core shutdown performance might only yield you 500Mhz CPU, at this stage.
And if you factor in stability and SAME performance when you use your machine lying in the bed, with thick wool blanket being the base for MBA, you'd have 200Mhz guaranteed.
And no fan vents to make your life even better in this fast lane 😀😀😀
macsmurf
macrumors 65816
The alternative explanation (which is the correct one) is that other manufaturers use sufficient cooling
Not true. You usually do this in BIOS.
Not true. P-states are set by the BIOS. I thought I just explained that.
Well, you clearly don't know what you're talking about, but if anyone can give me an example of a laptop (besides the Air) that uses power management to make up for insufficient cooling, please let me know.
EspressoLove
macrumors 6502
Sweet ... here we go again.
You impress me 🙄
OK, I'm leaving to let people discuss, Update in question itself.
Amen Brother! 🙂
I loved my 12" G4 powerbook as much as the next guy(was a 1.5Ghz one, 1.25gb ram), but the G4 CPU really sucks, Apple used it for far too long. ( I guess they had to)
My Macbook Air runs rings around my G5 1.6 (single cpu though) Tower, despite the slower HD in the Air.
Any test, benchmark, or subjective comparison, the Air simply kills it. The PPC chips were great in their day, EG 1st gen G3 etc, but they just didn't scale well, like the horrible pentium 4, the pentium III even was quicker clock-for-clock.
Intel has done well with CoreDuo architecture, i must give them that.
highjumppudding
macrumors 6502
It's about time
I have been waiting for this since day 1. It's great to finally see an update for this widespread issue. Now that they have fixed this issue, we'll see an update air coming out soon. They can move on from Rev 1 after fixing this bug. Way to go Apple, looking forward to the new Air!!! Has this update resolved anyone's issues? It has for mine... for now at least (fingers crossed)!
I have been waiting for this since day 1. It's great to finally see an update for this widespread issue. Now that they have fixed this issue, we'll see an update air coming out soon. They can move on from Rev 1 after fixing this bug. Way to go Apple, looking forward to the new Air!!! Has this update resolved anyone's issues? It has for mine... for now at least (fingers crossed)!
Can't decide to install
I used to run coolbook, as it helped with my coreshutdowns, but then it started making the air lockup, and i disabled it. Shortly thereafter, OS 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 (maybe even 10.5.4 can'tr rememeber) fixed the core shutdown issue for me atleast, ie with coolbook disabled & uninstalled, no matter what i through at this machine, i have no issues.
The updated appeared lastnight... should I install it?
OK, as per:
OK, i've copied those files to the desktop, i will run tests then install update and then post.
I used to run coolbook, as it helped with my coreshutdowns, but then it started making the air lockup, and i disabled it. Shortly thereafter, OS 10.5.2 or 10.5.3 (maybe even 10.5.4 can'tr rememeber) fixed the core shutdown issue for me atleast, ie with coolbook disabled & uninstalled, no matter what i through at this machine, i have no issues.
The updated appeared lastnight... should I install it?
OK, as per:
OK, i've copied those files to the desktop, i will run tests then install update and then post.
Marconelly
macrumors 6502
Cripes, this update is a complete disaster! Everyone should make sure to backup those two files before you update!
What it seems to do is it permanently locks the CPU to 800Mhz, and it seems like no matter what you run on the computer, it never goes above 800Mhz, no matter how much strain you put on the CPU.
For example, I have zoom effect enabled on Dock, and before the update, the CPU speed would jump to 1200-1400MHz when I'm quickly moving pointer over the dock, as to make the dock move smoothly. Same would happen when I move larger windows around quickly. After this update, dock and windows move around choppily as the CPU speed never goes above 800Mhz.
Much more tragic example - I have a website / presentation in Flash that I targeted to run smoothly on Air, as it's pretty much the lowest CPU speed for anyone who has somewhat up-to-date computer, and when I would run the presentation, MBA used to jump the CPU speed to 1600MHz instantly. Not a problem, it was meant to max the CPU, it's a complex and intensive presentation after all. The presentation ran smooth as butter.
Well, after this update, when I run the presentation, CPU stays at 800MHz and the framerate crawls at about 5FPS. I got really scared that my MBA has just become a useless pile of junk after this update (I really don't need a damn 800MHz computer that can't even run my own portfolio presentation, much less run any more demanding design productivity software) but thankfully, after re-enabling Coolbook (which I disabled for the duration of installation of this update), the computer started behaving just the same as before, going to 1600MHz when it's expected to. Phew...
Now the problem remains that my website (and I'm imagining, TONS of other complex Flash websites, and websites that use larger size flash videos) will become pretty much unwatchable to anyone who has MBA, after installing this update.
What it seems to do is it permanently locks the CPU to 800Mhz, and it seems like no matter what you run on the computer, it never goes above 800Mhz, no matter how much strain you put on the CPU.
For example, I have zoom effect enabled on Dock, and before the update, the CPU speed would jump to 1200-1400MHz when I'm quickly moving pointer over the dock, as to make the dock move smoothly. Same would happen when I move larger windows around quickly. After this update, dock and windows move around choppily as the CPU speed never goes above 800Mhz.
Much more tragic example - I have a website / presentation in Flash that I targeted to run smoothly on Air, as it's pretty much the lowest CPU speed for anyone who has somewhat up-to-date computer, and when I would run the presentation, MBA used to jump the CPU speed to 1600MHz instantly. Not a problem, it was meant to max the CPU, it's a complex and intensive presentation after all. The presentation ran smooth as butter.
Well, after this update, when I run the presentation, CPU stays at 800MHz and the framerate crawls at about 5FPS. I got really scared that my MBA has just become a useless pile of junk after this update (I really don't need a damn 800MHz computer that can't even run my own portfolio presentation, much less run any more demanding design productivity software) but thankfully, after re-enabling Coolbook (which I disabled for the duration of installation of this update), the computer started behaving just the same as before, going to 1600MHz when it's expected to. Phew...
Now the problem remains that my website (and I'm imagining, TONS of other complex Flash websites, and websites that use larger size flash videos) will become pretty much unwatchable to anyone who has MBA, after installing this update.
But, processing power doesn't scale proportionally with with clock speed either, because of stalls waiting for data (memory or other data channels). In my experience, this is the more relevant factor (usually - though not always!). Given that one core can stall while the other one continues, and the stalls are a time duration that is not proportional to clock speed, the slower multi-core design *usually* wins out. Not always - depends on the task at hand. But usually, at least in my experience.
Of course core synchronization and threading overhead are issues too, so the whole thing is very complex.
dudup
macrumors regular
Although I'm not observing numbers, I surely can tell you the performance on my MBA has going way better after this update. For example, now I can watch Big Buck Bunny in 1080p Divx without any hiccups -- before, it would never reach 24 fps. Now it runs smooth as my previous MB (which had a inferior graphics chipset).
Can you point this URL so I can test it for you? I'm curious to see this. I do some very heavy Keynote presentations, and some effects ran awful on my MBA before the update -- and I cannot test them now because they are back in my office.
ayeying
macrumors 601
Well, apparently everyone else doens't have this problem. I know I don't. My CPU don't get locked to 800MHz, it just drops to 800MHz if I push the temps too hot. After it cools down to sub-70s, it regains 1200/1400/1600 speeds.
Anyone else re-enabled CB after this update? Since installing CoolBook I've never had a problem, so I'm considering ignoring this update permanently.
i did. after updating, the system is less responsive. as i said before, they make the mba rarely reaches 1600.