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Apple’s main and legally-mandated goal is keeping that crap off their servers, not being the world police and solving crime once and for all.

Emphasis on legally-mandated.
Fine, I'll engage.

I understand that.

Then do it server side. In both situations the CSAM ends up on their servers, and ends up flagged, checked, reported and removed.

I also don't fully understand why they're getting such high praise from organizations that fight this stuff. I'm a little surprised they're not hearing, "better than nothing, but not enough".
 
Right. Us and 7,000 other people including some of the world's foremost privacy and crypto experts who are as alarmed as we average users are. https://appleprivacyletter.com

if 7000 people, *some* subjective experts, and a website are all that is needed to be right about anything, I can turn this world upside down.

Fortunately, that's not how the world works.

I'd argue Apple employs more experts than what you mentioned anyways. Oh, what? You're going to argue that it's a business decision so employees are doing this for the benefit of Apple? Apple is doing this to sell more iPhones? Or to get into "selling user data" business? That's hilarious. Apple is doing this AT THE COST of damaging their image, damaging their iPhone sales with ZERO financial upside.

I stand by what I said. Complete overreaction by you and the 7000 people you mentioned.

We're done. Have a good one.
 
"Simple software update" would be complete tear down and rebuild from the ground up.

Yeah but potentially a banana could slippery slope into a pineapple! It’s just a small update away! Like, completely dismantling and rebuilding how the system works with all its cryptographic checks and balances, change the scope of the system (catch collectors of the same known pictures because their “hobby” works that way, whereas in most cases dissidents wouldn’t amass a collection of the same exact few photos), etc.

The cat’s out the bag!
 
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if 7000 people, *some* subjective experts, and a website are all that is needed to be right about anything, I can turn this world upside down.
If anyone has doubts about this, google “Great Barrington Declaration” (an infamous “letter” written by people who got this pandemic completely wrong even well after much was known about the virus) and see how many experts and scholars signed it.

7000 people signing a letter doesn’t necessarily means it has merit.
 
And you obviously don’t know how technology and governments work. There’s an icon about the came’s nose…

*And*

Sounds like you agree with me, you didn't read how the technology works. Thanks for confirming my suspicion.

Have a good one.
 
It's mind boggling that people agree with this. Sadly alot have fallen for classic 'protect the children' excuse.
The details, the hashes, etc are not the main problem for the future. The problem is that Apple has installed a tool with a mechanism on each iPhone, iPad, macOS and Apple Watch that can in the future be configured to do others things.

I disagree with the 'protect the children' excuse unless Apple has proof that 99% of Apple users have CP on their devices. Installing software to search for CP on every device of all users that can configured differently in the future doesn't make sense and is not right. It doesn't add up. Clearly Apple has been pressured, caved in and this is the best they can do to get it accepted by the gullible agreeable masses. After all who doesn't care about children. If Apple cannot resist this infiltration on every device, they certainly won't be able to resist further requests.
 
The problem is that Apple has installed a tool with a mechanism on each iPhone, iPad, macOS and Apple Watch that can in the future be configured to do others things.
The problem with your premise is that this tool cannot be configured to do other things. If Apple wanted to (or was forced to, as you suppose), they could have installed a proper backdoor that could actually surveil people, and they wouldn't even have to publicly announce it!
 
This is exactly why Apple saying they will just refuse if governments want to abuse it (as if they could) is a statement with no credibility. The fact that they are even doing this shows they have already acquiesced.
Alternatively, the fact that they announced this publicly could be evidence that they're doing this of their own accord. If they were acquiescing to infiltration, they wouldn't have built something that doesn't allow them to look for anything aside from particular hashes, and they wouldn't have announced it and defended it.
 
Nope, it’s like sniffing the mail going out of your home for explosives. It’s data that’s about to be uploaded. Not data sitting there in your home. The trick here is that physical objects can’t be duplicated, whereas digital data can at the same time be local and be departing for apple servers, that’s how you people waste everyone’s time with your stupid unrelated real-life examples.
It's sad that the Apple apologists for this terrible policy can't seem to discuss it without resorting to personal attacks. But, that the totalitarian way, isn't it?
 
My main concern with the Messages portion of this (which uses on-device machine learning to determine if you've received or are trying to send a nude photo of a child) is that this could be co-opted by repressive regimes to detect whatever they want.

Russia for instance has made laws against "promoting" the Lesbian and Gay "ideology". Which essentially boils down to banning depictions of gay couples in media and making it illegal to advocate for their way of life, to ban the attempts to normalise homosexuality.

Combined with that Russia has forced Apple to allow preloading of apps on the iPhone from Russian companies. Did Apple stand up and say no this is our phone we would rather pull out of Russia than do that? No. They folded like a deck of cards.

What happens if Russia says we want you to expand this child exploitation technology in the Messages app to include homosexual imagery? like detecting pride flags, same-sex hand holding and so on? does Apple tell them no we're not doing that, we'll rather lose the Russian market and not sell iPhone there or do they fold again?

Apple made a great argument against governmental backdoors that once you make that door you've made the product less secure and it's ultimately just steps away from abuse.

I'm all for them scanning photos uploaded to their iCloud servers. That is their domain. But what happens on the phone or between two phone users in a private message chain should stay between those individuals. There is too much potential for abuse.

It's a lot easier to force a company to adjust something they've already made than it is to convince courts to press a company to create something from scratch which are the sorts of cases Apple has won in the past.

For instance imagine Apple didn't have an app store and didn't allow 3rd party apps on the iPhone at all then Russia has this law to pre-load Russian apps? That would be hard for a court to press Apple on because the apparatus/infrastructure to allow for that circumstance hasn't been created. But since it already exists forcing Apple to add a few apps is seen as easy-peasy.

Well the messages scanning thing has now been created, expect governments around the world to want to expand it to fight "terrorism", protecting the children and more. In-fact Russia's own LGBT laws have been put up to "save the children" so I'd expect them to be one of the first to want this system expanded beyond Apples remit.
 
My main concern with the Messages portion of this (which uses on-device machine learning to determine if you've received or are trying to send a nude photo of a child) is that this could be co-opted by repressive regimes to detect whatever they want.

Russia for instance has made laws against "promoting" the Lesbian and Gay "ideology". Which essentially boils down to banning depictions of gay couples in media and making it illegal to advocate for their way of life, to ban the attempts to normalise homosexuality.

Combined with that Russia has forced Apple to allow preloading of apps on the iPhone from Russian companies. Did Apple stand up and say no this is our phone we would rather pull out of Russia than do that? No. They folded like a deck of cards.

What happens if Russia says we want you to expand this child exploitation technology in the Messages app to include homosexual imagery? like detecting pride flags, same-sex hand holding and so on? does Apple tell them no we're not doing that, we'll rather lose the Russian market and not sell iPhone there or do they fold again?

Apple made a great argument against governmental backdoors that once you make that door you've made the product less secure and it's ultimately just steps away from abuse.

I'm all for them scanning photos uploaded to their iCloud servers. That is their domain. But what happens on the phone or between two phone users in a private message chain should stay between those individuals. There is too much potential for abuse.

It's a lot easier to force a company to adjust something they've already made than it is to convince courts to press a company to create something from scratch which are the sorts of cases Apple has won in the past.

For instance imagine Apple didn't have an app store and didn't allow 3rd party apps on the iPhone at all then Russia has this law to pre-load Russian apps? That would be hard for a court to press Apple on because the apparatus/infrastructure to allow for that circumstance hasn't been created. But since it already exists forcing Apple to add a few apps is seen as easy-peasy.

Well the messages scanning thing has now been created, expect governments around the world to want to expand it to fight "terrorism", protecting the children and more. In-fact Russia's own LGBT laws have been put up to "save the children" so I'd expect them to be one of the first to want this system expanded beyond Apples remit.
What would have prevented Russia or <insert other actor here> from demanding this in the past? Object detection is old hat ---- anyone with even minimal experience in ML techniques could implement this in an afternoon. If Russia, et al, wanted Apple to do this, and Apple would comply with it, then this would already be a thing. The Messages feature is a neat parental controls concept, not some new cool algorithmic way to detect nudity.
 
It's sad that the Apple apologists for this terrible policy can't seem to discuss it without resorting to personal attacks. But, that the totalitarian way, isn't it?
Thank you. I have personally been attacked in 5 different threads now and it is irritating.
 
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It's sad that the Apple apologists for this terrible policy can't seem to discuss it without resorting to personal attacks. But, that the totalitarian way, isn't it?

Sorry but after days of hearing the same unrelated real-life examples, disregard of technical realities, fixation on moot technicalities, childish “how dare they imply I’m a criminal” reasoning, etc. again and again it’s hard to keep one’s cool.
 
What would have prevented Russia or <insert other actor here> from demanding this in the past? Object detection is old hat ---- anyone with even minimal experience in ML techniques could implement this in an afternoon. If Russia, et al, wanted Apple to do this, and Apple would comply with it, then this would already be a thing. The Messages feature is a neat parental controls concept, not some new cool algorithmic way to detect nudity.

Because now everyone is aware of it. Most politicians don't have the foggiest idea how any technology works, literally. Now you have it built right in and every piece of news on the planet is saying Apple can detect nudity in sent photos. Suddenly they think yeah lets put forth legislation to expand on this.

Before they didn't even conceive of the idea, now its not just in their mind but they're aware that its already been implemented and is waiting for a new task.

Another example of Apple folding; All Chinese data held in iCloud being stored in China and accessible by the CPP at a moments notice.
 
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with this back door, imagine what they could do with the bootlegged movies and music! its the next step! so all of you better get that stuff out of iCloud! not as innocent as you thought you were, are ya?
 
Because now everyone is aware of it. Most politicians don't have the foggiest idea how any technology works, literally. Now you have it built right in and every piece of news on the planet is saying Apple can detect nudity in sent photos. Suddenly they think yeah lets put forth legislation to expand on this.

Before they didn't even conceive of the idea, now its not just in their mind but they're aware that its already been implemented and is waiting for a new task.

Another example of Apple folding; All Chinese data held in iCloud being stored in China and accessible by the CPP at a moments notice.
Google's (far superior) object detection has been around for years, and has had plenty of press. Perhaps people only interested in Apple-related news are shocked to hear that this is a thing, but I can all but guarantee that politicians are not just hearing about this now.

Your example is not Apple folding --- there are storage laws in China that Apple must comply with if they want to do business there, which in no way affects iOS; aside from whatever moral issues are attached to what China is doing with the data, it is their right to demand that Apple, a US company, does not store Chinese citizen's data on US soil. I stand by my original assertion: this doesn't open up some new capability for bad actors in any way whatsoever.
 
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