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Apple Reportedly Lays Off 40 Final Cut Employees

LethalWolfe said:
IMO FCP never has been more versatile than Media Composer. Both have their pros and cons but speaking in complete generalities I don't think FCP has ever measured up to MC. I think FCP can get your 90% of the way there for a fraction of the cost and that's been a big part of it's success. People bought Avids for $25k, $80, $120k depending on the model and I don't think many people would be willing to drop the same cash on a FCP setup. The most attractive part of FCP/FCS has always been the price, IMO. It's so cheap you can't not try it out. Almost every post house I've ever been in has had a machine in the corner w/FCP installed just to see what all the buzz is about.
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IMHO FCP out of the box wasn't the thing. It was what third parties allowed it to do. FCP was like a PC of editing world. Stuff like AJA Kona IO allowed you to do uncompressed capture and editing on-location with laptop. Something that couldn't be achieved with AVID without racks of hardware. Several other third party providers came up with their offerings which made FCP very flexible and as some people say better alternative to MC. You had AJA Kona, Pinnacle, Black Magic working on FCP so you really didn't have shortage of solutions in a time which AVID was trying to battle FCP first with AVid Xpress and then with lowering prices of MC.

LethalWolfe said:
Apple has always been on their own timeline, but their advancement w/the ProApps used to push the pace more than it does now. It used to be just FCP ($999) and Cinema Tools ($999) then DVD Studio Pro and Soundtrack appeared as stand alone apps. Later Compressor and LiveType showed up, FCP 4 got a huge, and free, .5 update that added native support for DVCPro HD. Which was huge because for the first time you could edit HD w/o needing a big, expensive RAID. Motion got released after that and Apple offered the Production Bundle (a suite of all the Apps for only a bit more than FCP used to cost all by itself). Not to mention Shake was purchased by Apple which turned a lot of heads. Back in these days ProApp announcements got prominent placement on Apple's main page.
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FCP is the crown jewel but I have never really figured out how Live Type and Soundtrack fit in the picture. I think the problem is that all of the titles are brought out from third parties and then tried to be shoehorned in to one suit. I think the biggest WOW was the purchase of Shake. It could've been huge. There were also exceptions for Apple to release true Avid MC killer, a turn key editing system (Final Cut Extreme) However, in 2006 NAB there was FC Extreme nowhere to be seen.

LethalWolfe said:
Color was probably the last big splash that Apple made. Final Cut Server remains a very niche-type product that is much more geek friendly than user friendly (I only have limited exposure to it though and haven't used 1.5). Less glamorous things like ProRes and making the Media Manager more reliable (but still short of Avid) help the product feel more mature but when I look at what Adobe and Avid have done in the last 2-3 years I feel like Apple has almost been coasting.
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Its not like "Apple has almost been coasting"... Its exactly what has happened here. Shake got axed but we haven't seen the replacement. We still haven't seen the ultimate integration of hardware and software (and we know how Apple likes that stuff) aka FC Extreme. FCP server has had more then its fair share of problems however, I haven't used 1.5 so it might be OK now. FCP itself feels like it only got few tweaks with 7.0 which to me was more like a point update then real upgrade. FCP could've used the RED integration to their full extent but unfortunately this wasn't the case. Compare this with the free FCP 4.5 upgrade turning FCP 4.0 into FCP HD and it shows how far the Apple has fallen from the tree.
 
Nuvi said:
IMHO FCP out of the box wasn't the thing. It was what third parties allowed it to do. FCP was like a PC of editing world. Stuff like AJA Kona IO allowed you to do uncompressed capture and editing on-location with laptop. Something that couldn't be achieved with AVID without racks of hardware. Several other third party providers came up with their offerings which made FCP very flexible and as some people say better alternative to MC. You had AJA Kona, Pinnacle, Black Magic working on FCP so you really didn't have shortage of solutions in a time which AVID was trying to battle FCP first with AVid Xpress and then with lowering prices of MC.
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Considering the laptop and HDD tech of the time I don't know how well the AJA Kona IO would work for uncompressed mobile editing in '03/'04, but you are right that FCP users had 4 or 5 options for I/O hardware where as Avid software only works w/Avid hardware. Around the same time the AJA Kona IO was released Avid did release the Mojo (to mixed reviews) which was a firewire break-out box as well. Whether or not having multiple venders is good or bad depends on your POV. If Apple software tied to Apple hardware is supposed to provide a better computer experience then wouldn't the same be true of Avid software tied to Avid hardware? Options are good unless you see them turn into hardware/software/firmware conflicts between different venders (who inevitably point the finger at the other guy). It all depends on how you want to look at the situation, IMO.

Again, I do think FCP offered better solutions under certain circumstances and as long as price was always a consideration. I don't know very many people who would've been willing to pay $50k or $60k for FCP like they would Avid though. I think Premiere was really the NLE that suffered the most at the hands of FCP's success.

FCP is the crown jewel but I have never really figured out how Live Type and Soundtrack fit in the picture. I think the problem is that all of the titles are brought out from third parties and then tried to be shoehorned in to one suit. I think the biggest WOW was the purchase of Shake. It could've been huge. There were also exceptions for Apple to release true Avid MC killer, a turn key editing system (Final Cut Extreme) However, in 2006 NAB there was FC Extreme nowhere to be seen.
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LiveType and the like were definitely attempts by Apple to bolt on added functionality w/o having to do the work in house. The upside is they don't have to go thru the growing pains of making something from scratch, but the downside is that round tripping ranges from cumbersome to painful (Color is probably the best example of this).

FC Extreme was a completely baseless rumor, IMO. The same guys that reported that also reported the RED One camera would cost over $200k and this was *after* there were a number of signs that the camera would be inexpensive (relatively speaking). FC Extreme would involve making FCP a tiered product (which goes against Apple's MO as well as industry trends) and it would tie it to hardware acceleration (which goes against Apple's MO as well as industry trends). FCP has always been a scalable app both in terms of the type of video you could throw at it and the type of performance you could expect depending on the specs of your computer.


Lethal
 
I have read every post in this thread to educate myself about the thoughts of users and non-users of FCP. It looks there's a 50-50 even split between Avid and FCP users. But the surprise is that more than 70% of you are dissatisfied, to a level, with FCP. FCP has been a great tool for almost 10 years. It helped employee editors like myself start a post-production business with a relatively low investment in a time when Avid was completely out of reach (we started with a G4 and FCP v1 out of my bedroom in 2000).

10 years ago, Avid was high on his horse as being the de-facto non-linear application. They sucked at customer support, the systems were very expensive, the software was buggy as hell, and their updates did more damage than good. Avid was the king of the desktop editing but also the king of crash and corrupted media.

Year 2000... say hello! to FCP.

Apple took Avid by surprise with a new approach, a variety of third-party vendors and an open timeline at a 10th of the cost of an Avid with regular updates and football field advances from version to version. We all loved FCP for many years but it also cannibalized the industry in a horrible way. FCP being so affordable let your nephew and my little sister become an editor. All of the sudden ANYONE with FCP could called him/herself an editor while a flood of poor-low quality work was dumped on the entertainment industry.

Obviously, there are many many exceptions of great quality editing work done with FCP, the good laptop editors are a dime in a dozen and a few boutique businesses have mimic professional Avid suites with professional quality hardware centralized with FCP. FCP and FCS has not been updated in a few years. The latest good update was the purchase of FinalTouch (now known as Color) a $25,000 license key for professional color grading on the mac. Since then there has not been any DECENT upgrade to FCP.

As a FCP post production boutique owner I am concerned about the future of FCP. I love the app but I also understand that Avid has regrouped, become more humbled about their position in the industry and make a huge effort to change its image. Today, their systems are handling multiple formats better than before, the media management and metadata handling is and has been outstanding and their market share is regaining momentum as they have dropped the cost of their systems. Today, 90% of every major studio movie, TV production and TV news are done on Avids. Well known universities are making an effort to teach their TV and Film students to concentrate on Avid for professional work while leaving FCP for home.

As a business owner, I am keeping an opened eye on Avid. For the first time in my 10 year affair with FCP - since v1, I am considering to give Avid a second look. I am not 100% sure what to do right now but I am positive that other post production businesses that are serious about their work and conscious about where their investment should be placed are thinking if continuing with FCP at the core of the infrastructure for the next 5 years is suitable.
 
Not Remote Only

I'm in Silicon Valley.
I have a friend that was laid off from the Pro Products group.
So if they say it was remote only, that is a lie.
 
Nuvi said:
Long story short, Apple bought unreleased Final Cut from Macromedia. First FC was behind Avid but quickly gained new featured and matured very fast. At some point Final Cut became more versatile then Media Composer. However, Avid has constantly pushed ahead with Media Composer and now it is again better (more robust and feature rich) solution then FCP. However, its expensive but if you're student you can get at very affordable price.
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Ya, I know the history of FC, but Media Composer is JUST editing correct? See my huge thing is not just Final Cut, but Final Cut STUDIO! With all those apps integrated for that price when I am not an effects person that uses After Effects and so on, there is really no better solution for me! I do hope Apple will take it all 64bit and get back on the ball though! :eek:
 
guzhogi said:
That's sad. I agree, Apple's becoming less & less a company for high end, Pro (as in Mac Pros, & Xserves) computers & more for mobility appliances like iPad & iPhone. Before this whole iPhone thing, Apple seemed a lot more interested in their computers than they do now. Heck, Apple even removed "Computer" from its name. Sad, just sad.
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Think again. Aperture 3 was just released.
 
OdysseyExplorer said:
I currently have Final Cut Express and was looking into Adobe Premiere. Maybe that is the way I should lean now...
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I think you are not alone.
Many indies need photoshop anyway, Motion is good with particles and stuff it can preview realtime, but more complex things are way better to do with After Effects. And with CS you can author a real blu-ray.
Then Premiere just comes "free" on top of those and depending on how compex editing and how much collaboration you will have with others in your projects, Premiere can be "good enough".
At least when you don't have money for both CS and FCS.

It's pretty hard to see these FCS team's layoffs any kind of positive signal for FCS development. You could easily ask if there's any?
Color has been waiting suport for 10/12-bit colors with nvidia for so many years. DvdSP hasn't got any real update for over half a decade.

A decade ago there were interesting editing solutions like FAST's Liquid and others that were already using background rendering and instant background saving of changes in projects, so you would never loose your work. I'm just wondering what's wrong with these features when today's macPros' have 100 times more horsepower, but still I have to wait for rendering and sometimes loose 30 mins of work because of crash and nerves because I don't remember exactly what did I do to get there. Or auto-save destroys concentration every now and then.

In last decade FCS had a big advantage over Avid: OsX.
Now that you don't need to struggle with windows even with Avid and also windows has became a bit better, this advantage has gone.

I guess that in near future more pros are choosing Avid, if they have money for it and if not, then CS.
Unless Apple shape up with FSC.
 
MacFly123 said:
Ya, I know the history of FC, but Media Composer is JUST editing correct? See my huge thing is not just Final Cut, but Final Cut STUDIO! With all those apps integrated for that price when I am not an effects person that uses After Effects and so on, there is really no better solution for me! I do hope Apple will take it all 64bit and get back on the ball though! :eek:
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Actually Avid Media Composer comes with so called production bundle which comes with Boris Continiuum Complete, Sorensons Squeeze etc. etc. making the suit similar to FCS. Honestly, overall the Avid package is better especially when there has been "specials" in which they have thrown in ProTools LE with M-box mini for free and cut the price of the MC package by 40%. That said Apple needs get it together if they want to have any chance competing with Avid.
 
toke lahti said:
I guess that in near future more pros are choosing Avid, if they have money for it and if not, then CS.
Unless Apple shape up with FSC.
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I'll bet Avid will be doing their best to get FC users if Apple starts loosing the grip on moving image. Avid screwed it up when FCP was introduced and they've made big changes to fight it back.

The sad part is, I'm sure Apple could stay competitive or better yet lead the way if they wanted to but it seems with the lay offs and lack of new releases they are concentrating more and more on consumer products and not only that but leaving the computers in general as second class citizens of Apple world. If you take a look at Apple's press releases and marketing its all about iPod's, iPhones and now iPad's. Then you have Apple's attitude towards Adobe which really isn't helping. I'm afraid it doesn't look too good for pro users.
 
here's how it went down...

Hey FCS employees,

We need to centralize our operations, so we want you all to come live and work in Cupertino. We know a bunch of you guys wont like that, so we'll give you the option of being laid off until further notice and give you a big fatty severance check to sweeten the deal. However if you come to Cupertino we'll make sure it's worth your while. We treat our engineers pretty damn well here. Just let us know asap.

- SJ
 
Saxguy87 said:
Hey FCS employees,

We need to centralize our operations, so we want you all to come live and work in Cupertino. We know a bunch of you guys wont like that, so we'll give you the option of being laid off until further notice and give you a big fatty severance check to sweeten the deal. However if you come to Cupertino we'll make sure it's worth your while. We treat our engineers pretty damn well here. Just let us know asap.

- SJ
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Sure it did... Wake up and smell the coffee. I don't think people who got laid off find it funny.
 
Cutting 40 people from a project is not a big deal. Ending the project AND dumping 400 people would be a big deal.

These guys were either a) getting ready to move to a new job, b) sucked at what they were hired to do, or c) finished the project they were working on.

If it's c), other people in the team would have been kept for the release iron out any bugs the public come across for the first few weeks.
 
seamer said:
Cutting 40 people from a project is not a big deal. Ending the project AND dumping 400 people would be a big deal.

These guys were either a) getting ready to move to a new job, b) sucked at what they were hired to do, or c) finished the project they were working on.

If it's c), other people in the team would have been kept for the release iron out any bugs the public come across for the first few weeks.
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a) Not true according to people who got the boot. b) sure, its common that whole Q&A department sucks... c) Apple finished working with FCS? Hope not...

I'm not sure whats your angle to the subject but, its not based on facts. Regarding the number of people getting the boot, 40 is a LOT OF PEOPLE! How many you think work for Q&A for FCS? For FCS users this is huge deal because stability is the key element of successful pro application.
 
This thread is insane. Firstly, the employees seem to be testers. It's likely they were little more than freelances/contractors, testing the software in advance of a major release. Now it's released they simply aren't needed in the same numbers but may be again during the next release cycle.

Firstly, just because Apple has done well in the consumer sphere doesn't mean they have ditched pro users. They've never made such great pro products. Apple often gets the latest Intel processors before the rest of the market, which suggests that they actively persue the best stuff for pros ahead of time.

It's almost unbelievable how Final Cut appeared from nowhere and turned the market upside down. It might not make as much money as flogging iPod Nanos to tweenies but it's a killer app that brings people to the Mac and keeps them there a long time.

Pro apps have longer developmnent cycles because they have to be got right and be robust enough for heavy use. That's why sometime you have to wait for that much-wanted new feature - it's not because Apple 'love the iPhone more' or some unrelated nonsense.

Logic is another app that really pulls people onto the Mac. Again, it Apple took it from a pretty decent desktop app competing with Cubase to something that's increasinly used instead of ProTools. It's amazing value to boot.

The only pro app that's on shakier ground long term is Aperture - not because it's not great but because its hard for Apple to really differentiate it from Lightroom and other products. It doesn't have the killer app status of FCP or Logic.
 
Macist said:
This thread is insane. Firstly, the employees seem to be testers. It's likely they were little more than freelances/contractors, testing the software in advance of a major release. Now it's released they simply aren't needed in the same numbers but may be again during the next release cycle.

Firstly, just because Apple has done well in the consumer sphere doesn't mean they have ditched pro users. They've never made such great pro products. Apple often gets the latest Intel processors before the rest of the market, which suggests that they actively persue the best stuff for pros ahead of time.

It's almost unbelievable how Final Cut appeared from nowhere and turned the market upside down. It might not make as much money as flogging iPod Nanos to tweenies but it's a killer app that brings people to the Mac and keeps them there a long time.

Pro apps have longer developmnent cycles because they have to be got right and be robust enough for heavy use. That's why sometime you have to wait for that much-wanted new feature - it's not because Apple 'love the iPhone more' or some unrelated nonsense.

Logic is another app that really pulls people onto the Mac. Again, it Apple took it from a pretty decent desktop app competing with Cubase to something that's increasinly used instead of ProTools. It's amazing value to boot.

The only pro app that's on shakier ground long term is Aperture - not because it's not great but because its hard for Apple to really differentiate it from Lightroom and other products. It doesn't have the killer app status of FCP or Logic.
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Well stated.
 
toke lahti said:
I haven't used Avid for years, but correct me, if I'm wrong:
First Media Composer to OsX 2003.
First Media Composer with HD to OsX 2006.
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It's not a big deal, I didn't mean anything negative about it.

Just hoping people would remember that films have been cut (in the non-linear fashion) on the Mac since day 1

All versions of the Avid (AFAIK and have read) have had Mac versions. I've actually never cut with Avid on a PC until I got to my senior year of college, and even then it was only because my school never installed Avid Express HD on the Macs. The dongle that came with it allowed you to run the same software on the Mac and PC.

Wiki also has a page or two about it

Also here...

p.s. Forgot to mention, there are versions of Avid software that are PC only, like iNews.
 
Digital Skunk said:
All versions of the Avid (AFAIK and have read) have had Mac versions.
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Yeah, Mac versions, but not OsX versions.
I remember that at least in poor small economic areas back in 1999 nobody wanted to invest major loads of money to Macs, which seemed to be dying very soon and NT4 was much more powerful. So between 1999-2003 everybody who bought Avid, ad it with windows. And used it for the next 5 years to earn money for next generation of machines.

So if you wanted to edit with Mac & OsX in 1999-2003 only choise was FCP.
If you wanted to edit HD with Mac & OsX in 1999-2006 only chose was FCP.

I guess that after "year of hd" (=2005, by SJ, I'm still waiting for BD) nobody wanted to buy edit that can't handle HD.

So FCS had kind of monopoly on Macs 1999-2006.
And FSC1 was released 2005 and lots of users bought it and new intel hardware in 2006. So they have not yet been ready for new upgrade round, but very soon will be. And somehow apple doesn't seem to care.

It looks like something similiar that happend to the company "geographically north" with its monopoly OS, might be happening to FCS.
Technological decisions are no longer made to satisfy the customers, but to restrict them as the company wants.

Where's the iPad's "magical wow-effect" when your dumping P2-card to your macbook and 10 minutes of footage takes 30 minutes to transfer. Plenty of time to remember when back in 90's this was real-time...
 
toke lahti said:
So if you wanted to edit with Mac & OsX in 1999-2003 only choise was FCP.
If you wanted to edit HD with Mac & OsX in 1999-2006 only chose was FCP.
Click to expand...
I think you are putting way, way, way too much on the importance of OS X. As recently as a few years ago it wasn't surprising to see Macs running OS 9, w/just as old versions of Avid, in Hollywood cutting content for prime time TV. You are also forgetting about Adobe Premiere.


Lethal
 
toke lahti said:
So FCS had kind of monopoly on Macs 1999-2006.
And FSC1 was released 2005 and lots of users bought it and new intel hardware in 2006. So they have not yet been ready for new upgrade round, but very soon will be. And somehow apple doesn't seem to care.
Click to expand...

Its very unfortunate for those who rely Apple hardware and software to put food on the table. What bothers me most is Apple's inability to be strong or push ahead on more fronts then one simultaneously. I've find out that best way to know what Apple is pushing is to check out their "job opportunities" section. Now its filled with "embedded technologies", iPod this iPad that etc. etc. to summarize "consumer gadget engineers wanted". However, there were at least one position open for FCS dev team so they are doing something :eek:

BTW. Why on earth Apple wants user interface guys with expert level skills in Flash when they are saying its sucks so hard and iPod/Phone/Pad don't need it... Marketing meets reality :p
 
toke lahti said:
Yeah, Mac versions, but not OsX versions.
Click to expand...

I do also mean OSX versions too. Avid Xpress DV ran on Mac OS 10.2 and up. Then Avid Xpress HD (the one that I used in college on both Mac and PC) on 10.3.

That was around the time I did learn FCP and was hooked by the glossiness of it all. Thanks for the reminder Lethal, there was also Adobe Premier in that time frame, with only CS --> CS3 being PC only and CS4 seeing it brought back to the Mac.

Not trying to hound you toke lahti because I do somewhat agree. The biggest reason I have cut solely on FCP with the Mac is because of the price. I get an effective edit for the work I do with FCP and pay half as much as I would with Avid.
 
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