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Apple Reportedly Looking to Offer 24-Bit Music Files in iTunes Store
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The music snobbery in this thread is pathetic.
How so? People are willing to pay thousands of dollars to maximize the resolution and clarity of video in their televisions and computers. How is the quest to improve audio quality any different? The law of diminishing returns applies to hi-fi audio just as it applies to hi-end home theater, cars, clothing etc. Different strokes...
On this note, I must HIGHLY recommend Max for transcoding between formats: http://sbooth.org/Max/
Max can convert FLAC to ALAC and back, for example, which is useful when you find music online in FLAC format and want to listen in iTunes or on your iPod. It also uses all available cores when converting and transfers all ID tags, so if you have a large collection of FLAC to convert to ALAC, Max is your man.
And it's free too.
For the PC users, dbpoweramp will do the same thing. I love it. Takes just a minute to convert an LP to put on my iPhone. I do it on demand.
Definitely a step in the right direction
Audiophiles (at least those of us that will use digital files at all) have always seen the biggest drawback in the iTunes store to be the compression. Read the audiophile forums like head-fi (which I've been doing for years) and no one is ripping to anything less than ALAC (Apple Lossless) for serious listening, which still necessitates buying a CD and ripping it, rather than a purchase through iTunes, which obviously also takes up a lot more drive space than the default files.
Some will argue, but yes, with decent equipment, there is an easily discernable difference between a lossless file and one processed using the iTunes downloadable format.
Most audiophiles that are using Apple devices are using workarounds at this point to improve audio quality: portable headphone amps, even when using IEMs are the norm, since you can't drive higher power or full-size headphones properly off of the internal amp on any of the iPods. Most serious listeners are bypassing the D/A converter in the iPods (a serious weak-point in the signal chain) by using a device such as an iMod (exceptional modification to earlier iPods designed by Red Wine Audio in concert with ALO audio who does the cabling required) or the Wadia iTransport.
If Apple changes to allow purchasing in ALAC, not even going as far as 24-bit, it is a huge step in the right direction! If the current and legacy hardware can't support 24-bit, I don't see Apple immediately obsolescing all those iPods without an interim step where fidelity on existing equipment can be improved. I also don't see the audiophile segment as big enough to where Apple could justify making iPods just for that niche. This does, however justify the continued existence of the iPod Classic, or development of Touch models that are either HD-based or have much larger capacities than the current models.
Audiophiles (at least those of us that will use digital files at all) have always seen the biggest drawback in the iTunes store to be the compression. Read the audiophile forums like head-fi (which I've been doing for years) and no one is ripping to anything less than ALAC (Apple Lossless) for serious listening, which still necessitates buying a CD and ripping it, rather than a purchase through iTunes, which obviously also takes up a lot more drive space than the default files.
Some will argue, but yes, with decent equipment, there is an easily discernable difference between a lossless file and one processed using the iTunes downloadable format.
Most audiophiles that are using Apple devices are using workarounds at this point to improve audio quality: portable headphone amps, even when using IEMs are the norm, since you can't drive higher power or full-size headphones properly off of the internal amp on any of the iPods. Most serious listeners are bypassing the D/A converter in the iPods (a serious weak-point in the signal chain) by using a device such as an iMod (exceptional modification to earlier iPods designed by Red Wine Audio in concert with ALO audio who does the cabling required) or the Wadia iTransport.
If Apple changes to allow purchasing in ALAC, not even going as far as 24-bit, it is a huge step in the right direction! If the current and legacy hardware can't support 24-bit, I don't see Apple immediately obsolescing all those iPods without an interim step where fidelity on existing equipment can be improved. I also don't see the audiophile segment as big enough to where Apple could justify making iPods just for that niche. This does, however justify the continued existence of the iPod Classic, or development of Touch models that are either HD-based or have much larger capacities than the current models.
I wasn't referring to the audio quality. I was referring to the artist bashing. Music taste is subjective.
The music snobbery in this thread is pathetic.
Just saw your last post.... I stand corrected and corrected my post.
^I couldn't agree more with your statement.
Sadly, this whole report talks solely about an increase to 24 bit - nothing about switching to a lossless format is mentioned...
But it's just a rumor eh? I would think they would come to their senses before plowing head first into this. I am sure they would have some concerns with bandwidth as well. Just think it was only a few years ago the highest quality they offered was 128k mp3. I used to laugh at that. ANYONE can here how crap a 128k mp3 is.
meh. I buy vinyl. Better than any digital file will ever be.
iTunes is only for an occasional random purchase, usually a song i recollect from my childhood/teen years that is funny and I'm willing to spend a buck to hear once again.
iTunes is only for an occasional random purchase, usually a song i recollect from my childhood/teen years that is funny and I'm willing to spend a buck to hear once again.
I've got lots of 24 bit lossless (Beatles FLAC etc.) and have never been able to tell the difference from CD. Shannon's law says it's 6dB per bit to reconstruct the original signal from it's samples, so CD has 96dB dynamic range - ontop of the roughly 30dB background in a quite room. 24bit has 144dB of dynamic range ontop of the 30dB. If you could use this range your ears will bleed (137.5dB is a common figure for threashold of pain). Upping the sampling frequency beyond 44.1KHz simply introduces frequencies you can't hear (ie. above 20KHz). All of this is about CD type formats - can't apply things like simple bit depth to MP3 etc.
There is a nice experiment you can try using something like audio hijack pro and an effect to knock out bits from the signal. If I start with a 16 bit signal I can begin to hear a difference at 13 bits on very quiet classical (slight hiss) and more like 11bits on most music.
There is a nice experiment you can try using something like audio hijack pro and an effect to knock out bits from the signal. If I start with a 16 bit signal I can begin to hear a difference at 13 bits on very quiet classical (slight hiss) and more like 11bits on most music.
On this note, I must HIGHLY recommend Max for transcoding between formats: http://sbooth.org/Max/
Max can convert FLAC to ALAC and back, for example, which is useful when you find music online in FLAC format and want to listen in iTunes or on your iPod. It also uses all available cores when converting and transfers all ID tags, so if you have a large collection of FLAC to convert to ALAC, Max is your man.
And it's free too.
oh! thanks for that, i'll give it a go, i've been using this one: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/23430/x-lossless-decoder
I was just thinking about this too. I'd assumed it couldn't be 24 bit lossy because that just sounds absurd. Since MP3s are 16 bit anyway (or is it that they have no bit depth?), surely it would make no difference whether they were converted from a 24 bit or a 16 bit master.
But wait... Legendary mastering engineer Bob Katz says otherwise. Is it worth a price hike to get "an MP3 that sounds marginally better and has a little better audible resolution"?
Katz talks about feeding an MP3 Encoder a 24 bit input vs a 16 bit one to create a 16 bit MP3. I agree that is is definitely possible for the Encoder to make better choices when it has more precise data at its hands.
In this case however we are basically talking about getting a 24bit AAC file instead of a 16bit AAC file as a result - which really makes no difference because the added dB range that the 24bit provide does nothing but extend the noise floor. The noise floor is defined by the production - which stays the same. So there is 0 audible difference. (The noise floor is masked by the useful sounds anyway)
XLD (X Lossless Decode) works great on OS X for this as well..
http://tmkk.pv.land.to/xld/index_e.html
I just realized this really doesn't make much sense. AAC files are lossy compressed, so the uncompressed bitrates (16bit, 24bit) have nothing to do with the result.
This whole rumor really makes little sense. If they are talking about 24 bit they must be talking about a lossless format - or about the input formats for the AAC encoder.
I would think you would have dithering problems. Maybe not, I would have to think about that. I have made 320s from 24 bit masters. I honestly doubt there is any audible difference between that and converting 24bit to 16 and then to mp3. FWIW I can output 32 bit from my DAW. Some will do 64 bit. My mastering engineer thinks this is overkill and they only reason he prefers 24 bit is so there is less lost in the processes he performs. At the end of the day lossless in mp4 would make me consider being an iTunes customer. Let's do this first.
I was referring to the over-processed electronic audio that permeates modern popular music. I used Lady Gaga as an example. It doesn't matter if you like her or not, it still sounds like crap because its over-processed and compressed dynamically. You can only listen to it for a short while before your ears become tired.
We need to get these producers to STOP with this "loud all the time" nonsense, or we'll ALL be walking around with tinnitus before long.
I think some of your observations about 24-bit recordings depends on the source. I doubt that the dynamic range of Beatles mono recordings from 1963-64 are going to be all that great to begin with. Compare that to my DVD-A recording of Al Green's Greatest Hits (most recorded in the early 1970s) versus the CD version. The DVD-A version just stomps the CD version.
For those of us who are audiophiles, I like the fact that at least someone is having this discussion at Apple. The amount of AAC music I buy in the iTunes Store is tiny. I still buy the lion's share of my music on CDs so I can rip them to Apple Lossless (and then re-rip to AAC 256K for portable devices). I have some SACD and DVD-A recordings but it's pretty small and not that much new comes out these days.
Even being able to purchase songs in Apple Lossless would allow me to be able to stop buying CDs. 24 bit music would be interesting since I like the 24 bit recordings I have and even my old Denon 3805 receiver can reproduce that on Toslink (even at 192khz for two channel). But Apple Lossless files could be played everywhere since just about every Apple portable device, computer and Apple TV can play them.
It should be interesting to see how all this shakes out. But I for one would love to see the ability to purchase electronically something demonstrably better than what we have now.
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OK. Can someone (who actually knows...) decode the following situations.
Obviously, Macs can play 24 bit.
Can an iPod?
Can 24 bit be streamed via AirTunes to an Airport Express?
Via AirTunes to an AppleTV (current version)?
Previous AppleTV version?
What if the AppleTV or Airport where connected to a DAC, and therefore not decoding the steam, just bringing it from the source (iTunes) to DAC?
OK. Can someone (who actually knows...) decode the following situations.
Obviously, Macs can play 24 bit.
Can an iPod?
Can 24 bit be streamed via AirTunes to an Airport Express?
Via AirTunes to an AppleTV (current version)?
Previous AppleTV version?
What if the AppleTV or Airport where connected to a DAC, and therefore not decoding the steam, just bringing it from the source (iTunes) to DAC?