iPhone X Apple Reportedly Opening Up NFC to Transit Systems

ipedro

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In a news report about the future of Ontario's transit fare card PRESTO, an industry insider said that Apple had contacted them about setting up a meeting. It was being reported that transitioning to smartphone payments in the Toronto region's transit system would only work with Android phones because of Apple's NFC limitation. It appears that Apple is open to correcting that limitation since they initiated the requests for a meeting.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...e-fare-payments-as-part-of-presto-system.html

presto.jpg
 

Mrbobb

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Aug 27, 2012
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Having been around the world really have me underwhelmed talking about NFC and Apple. I mean abroad, they've been doing NFC payment for years, I mean nobody over there carry cash, come back to this country and I can't believe how backwards we are.
 
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ipedro

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Having been around the world really have me underwhelmed talking about NFC and Apple. I mean abroad, they've been doing NFC payment for years, I mean nobody over there carry cash, come back to this country and I can't believe how backwards we are.
Depends on what you mean "this country". I'm in Toronto, Canada and Apple Pay is accepted virtually everywhere. I haven't carried a wallet for over a year. I seriously can't remember the last time I handled cash.

It'll be nice to have my PRESTO card in my iOS Wallet on my iPhone and Apple Watch. It's the only card I have to carry and I only carry it when I'm expecting to use transit.
 
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Vermifuge

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iPhone 8 & X already support Suica and works with most Japanese train and bus systems. In fact you don't even have to unlock the iPhone. You have the option of using Suica from the locked state. (FaceID/TouchID not required) This has actually been an option since the iPhone 7 but previously only the Japanese models supported it.
 
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quietstormSD

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Having been around the world really have me underwhelmed talking about NFC and Apple. I mean abroad, they've been doing NFC payment for years, I mean nobody over there carry cash, come back to this country and I can't believe how backwards we are.
Funny whenever I go to “other countries” I’m always forced to carry cash around since that is all people take.
 

LovingTeddy

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Depends on what you mean "this country". I'm in Toronto, Canada and Apple Pay is accepted virtually everywhere. I haven't carried a wallet for over a year. I seriously can't remember the last time I handled cash.

It'll be nice to have my PRESTO card in my iOS Wallet on my iPhone and Apple Watch. It's the only card I have to carry and I only carry it when I'm expecting to use transit.
That means you have not went to WalMart, small convinces stores and used bank machines for over a year. Or you never had any purchase over 100 dollars a year. I found it is hard to believe.

I am living in Waterloo, Ontario. Wallet is absolutely needed, I won’t go far without wallet. I like shop cheap, therefore I go to a WalMart, Costco all the time. I love goes to a restaurant I often visit, again no Apple Pay. Several convince stores around my area do not accept tap at all.

I really find hard to believe claims about not carrying wallet for extensive period of time.
 
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JPack

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Apple NFC with transit is already possible, just in countries with more sophisticated payment systems.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208539



China is literally the only country in the world where you can live day to day using only mobile payments. This is due to early adoption of WeChat Pay and Alipay nearly a decade ago.

The street vendors will take WeChat Pay. Even homeless people will take it. And yes, Walmart in China takes WeChat Pay.
 

ipedro

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iPhone 8 & X already support Suica and woks with most Japanese train and bus systems. In fact you don't even have to unlock the phone. You have the option of using Suica from the locked state. (FaceID/TouchID not required) This has actually been an option since the iPhone 7 but previously only the Japanese models supported it.
But Suica is built in purposefully for those transit systems. PRESTO is vanilla NFC. On Android, any app can use it. On iPhone, the NFC hardware is locked to native Apple apps. Third parties can't use it though it sounds like Apple is going to open it up.
 
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Vermifuge

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Apple NFC with transit is already possible, just in countries with more sophisticated payment systems.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208539



China is literally the only country in the world where you can live day to day using only mobile payments. This is due to early adoption of WeChat Pay and Alipay nearly a decade ago.

The street vendors will take WeChat Pay. Even homeless people will take it. And yes, Walmart in China takes WeChat Pay.
I thought WePay relied on QR Codes, not NFC.

Yeah there are several examples of the iPhone being used for transit styles Still not sure why this is such a big deal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Vermifuge

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We're already on public trial in Singapore with iPhone and Apple Watch on trains.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207958

China
  • Beijing: Beijing Transit cards*
  • Guangzhou: UnionPay (CUP) credit cards
  • Hangzhou: UnionPay (CUP) credit and debit cards
  • Shanghai: Shanghai Transit cards*
Japan
  • All forms of transit that accept Suica
Russia
United Kingdom
United States
 

bushman4

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NYC transit was suppose to be online with cellphone accessibility by year end
So far I don’t see any hardware being added to turnstiles nor is NYC MTA talking anymore
 

ipedro

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Toronto, ON
Apple NFC with transit is already possible, just in countries with more sophisticated payment systems.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208539



China is literally the only country in the world where you can live day to day using only mobile payments. This is due to early adoption of WeChat Pay and Alipay nearly a decade ago.

The street vendors will take WeChat Pay. Even homeless people will take it. And yes, Walmart in China takes WeChat Pay.
I dunno, I get by pretty well with just ApplePay. Every vendor accepted Debit for the better part of the last decade and in the last few years, every debit terminal was converted to NFC so essentially anywhere that accepts debit (99.9% of vendors) also take ApplePay. I just bought an ice cream from a truck with my Watch earlier today. I haven't touched cash in.... I actually can't remember.

I don't know what you mean by "sophisticated payment systems". PRESTO is brand new. It's an internet connected payment system that uses NFC at the point of entry and can be loaded online, automatically or directly at a machine.
 
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nicho

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Feb 15, 2008
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Apple NFC with transit is already possible, just in countries with more sophisticated payment systems.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208539



China is literally the only country in the world where you can live day to day using only mobile payments. This is due to early adoption of WeChat Pay and Alipay nearly a decade ago.

The street vendors will take WeChat Pay. Even homeless people will take it. And yes, Walmart in China takes WeChat Pay.
I don't remember the last time I used cash (China). The last time my parents came to visit I set my dad up with wechat pay from an old account of mine that i put some money in; he used less than $100 cash in the 3 weeks he was here, and he's usually one of those big cash, wallet full of notes guys.

I find myself using WeChat Pay much more than Apple Pay because with the exception of McDonald's, most POS systems are set up to load wechat pay faster than they initiate the card readers. In 7/11 it's one button press for the operator instead of 2 or 3 and a 5 second + wait for the reader to turn on (though it's a good backup if i only have my watch). If I'm carrying my phone all the time, I could do without apple pay completely and just use wechat as most do - integrating with all these different transit systems would be a big plus for apple. I just hope they do it before wechat/alipay's crappy QR code solution catches on (it's fine to have a 1-2 second delay in retail, because most card payments do, but in transit it's a PITA).
 

cyb3rdud3

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Just demonstrate the wrong choice the public transport system had chosen in the region of the OP.

I’ve been using my iPhone and Apple Watch for years now on public transport; primarily in London, but also in Moscow. The approach is simple from an architectural perspective; use industry standards like those for contactless payment card. So anyone visiting can simply use whatever contactless payment card they have. No need for special signups or anything.
 

ipedro

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Just demonstrate the wrong choice the public transport system had chosen in the region of the OP.

I’ve been using my iPhone and Apple Watch for years now on public transport; primarily in London, but also in Moscow. The approach is simple from an architectural perspective; use industry standards like those for contactless payment card. So anyone visiting can simply use whatever contactless payment card they have. No need for special signups or anything.
PRESTO is NFC credit and debit card ready. You'll tap your standard credit card and be charged a fare and get through the gate. But ApplePay won't work because it anonymizes the credit card number so you can't tap in, then tap to transfer to another route and tap out and be recognized as the same card. That's a limitation of ApplePay, not the system. Apple worked with Transport for London to send them a token identifying that iPhone (not the credit card) as one that paid a fare.
 

dontwalkhand

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Jul 5, 2007
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Having been around the world really have me underwhelmed talking about NFC and Apple. I mean abroad, they've been doing NFC payment for years, I mean nobody over there carry cash, come back to this country and I can't believe how backwards we are.
I am in the US and never carry cash. Nobody I know really does here either.

We do carry cards though. Would love just leaving the house with a phone. Most transit systems including here in Phoenix does have an app you can use to board a train/bus. Of course not NFC but the app does work.
 

cyb3rdud3

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Jun 22, 2014
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PRESTO is NFC credit and debit card ready. You'll tap your standard credit card and be charged a fare and get through the gate. But ApplePay won't work because it anonymizes the credit card number so you can't tap in, then tap to transfer to another route and tap out and be recognized as the same card. That's a limitation of ApplePay, not the system. Apple worked with Transport for London to send them a token identifying that iPhone (not the credit card) as one that paid a fare.
Not how I understand it at all. Apple Pay presents itself as a standard contactless card. That is very clear and obvious as it allows you to pay on standard terminals in markets where Apple Pay hasn't launched yet. I know as they look at you like you are from another planet when you make a payment with your watch ;)
 

dontwalkhand

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Jul 5, 2007
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PRESTO is NFC credit and debit card ready. You'll tap your standard credit card and be charged a fare and get through the gate. But ApplePay won't work because it anonymizes the credit card number so you can't tap in, then tap to transfer to another route and tap out and be recognized as the same card. That's a limitation of ApplePay, not the system. Apple worked with Transport for London to send them a token identifying that iPhone (not the credit card) as one that paid a fare.
Works in Portland and Chicago the same way as London. And Apple Pay didn’t do anything special. The token for your card is valid so long as you don’t delete the card off the phone.
 

cyb3rdud3

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Jun 22, 2014
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Works in Portland and Chicago the same way as London. And Apple Pay didn’t do anything special. The token for your card is valid so long as you don’t delete the card off the phone.
Exactly, why Canada/Presto invents its own payment mechanism in 2018 for public transport is truly beyond me. Doesn't make any sense other that to those selling such a system. it is inconvenience for customers, visitors etc...
 

dontwalkhand

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Jul 5, 2007
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Exactly, why Canada/Presto invents its own payment mechanism in 2018 for public transport is truly beyond me. Doesn't make any sense other that to those selling such a system. it is inconvenience for customers, visitors etc...
Tell me about it. Phoenix, and Boston currently uses the same “Presto” system as Canada by Scheidt & Bachmann- a German company that specializes in this stuff. Obviously they like what this company has presented to them. Boston is replacing it with what London has however.
 
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LovingTeddy

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I thought WePay relied on QR Codes, not NFC.

Yeah there are several examples of the iPhone being used for transit styles Still not sure why this is such a big deal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It is. QR system is lot easier to setup than NFC terminals. In fact, NFC payment system is not common in China, except the transit system. Lots of street vendor or lots of small shop does not have NFC terminals, where store owner can simply print the QR code. I am never fan of NFC payment, I still think QR payment is way to go
 

cyb3rdud3

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Jun 22, 2014
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It is. QR system is lot easier to setup than NFC terminals. In fact, NFC payment system is not common in China, except the transit system. Lots of street vendor or lots of small shop does not have NFC terminals, where store owner can simply print the QR code. I am never fan of NFC payment, I still think QR payment is way to go
It is slow, relies on having good light to read it, it is not secure, do I need to go on?
 

weckart

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Nov 7, 2004
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Not how I understand it at all. Apple Pay presents itself as a standard contactless card. That is very clear and obvious as it allows you to pay on standard terminals in markets where Apple Pay hasn't launched yet. I know as they look at you like you are from another planet when you make a payment with your watch ;)
I don't think it does. My understanding is that Apple Pay anonymises the transaction so it sends a one time token to the terminal that doesn't identify you to the vendor. TFL had to do something to track payments as you used your phone so that aggregate payments didn't breach the corresponding Travelcard costs.
 
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Vermifuge

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I don't think it does. My understanding is that Apple Pay anonymises the transaction so it sends a one time token to the terminal that doesn't identify you to the vendor. TFL had to do something to track payments as you used your phone so that aggregate payments didn't breach the corresponding Travelcard costs.
The Portland system has a tap in system that charges you each time you tap the phone against an NFC reader. You are charged a flat fee. You tap your phone every time you board a train, trolly, bus etc. However once you have paid $5 ALL your charges are combined into a single all day $5 ticket. The caveat is you must use the same credit card for all the transactions. This tells me that Portland TriMET system does have at least some information about the people using the system.
 
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