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If walmart decided to charge $40 for milk, is that life-threatening damage as well? Please.
It’s not immediately life-threatening but charging consumers 1000% margin on essential foods is damaging from a nutritional point, yes. Particularly for monopoly or duopoly sellers with considerable customer lock-in - and with the prevalence of food deserts in the U.S.

Companies can price however they want, consumers can choose to buy or not buy.
Considering that’s your immediate follow-up to the $40 milk suggestion, that shows a contemptible lack of humaneness.

I hope you’ll at least be morally consistent and apply the same logic to healthcare providers when you suffer from an acute medical emergency.

„We offered trying to save applevisionpro‘s limb with emergency surgery.
Thinking he’d be happy to pay the 1 million dollar price we would have charged „however we wanted to“. But since he declined, we just sawed it off and stitched his stump.
It’s wasn‘t „life-threatening damage“ either way.“
 
It’s not immediately life-threatening but charging consumers 1000% margin on essential foods is damaging from a nutritional point, yes. Particularly for monopoly or duopoly sellers with considerable customer lock-in - and with the prevalence of food deserts in the U.S.


Considering that’s your immediate follow-up to the $40 milk suggestion, that shows a contemptible lack of humaneness.

I hope you’ll at least be morally consistent and apply the same logic to healthcare providers when you suffer from an acute medical emergency.

„We offered trying to save applevisionpro‘s limb with emergency surgery.
Thinking he’d be happy to pay the 1 million dollar price we would have charged „however we wanted to“. But since he declined, we just sawed it off and stitched his stump.
It’s wasn‘t „life-threatening damage“ either way.“
Not a corporation's job. Go ahead and pass laws that would require basic food to have a price ceiling. Same for drugs. If you want that kind of law for IAP go ahead. Fact is, no one would support that kind of consumer-hostile environment.
 
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You are speaking about this as if Apple is commiting crime or a genocide? lol. We are talking a company changing a price and they are free to do whatever they want. If walmart decided to charge $40 for milk, is that life-threatening damage as well? Please.

Companies can price however they want, consumers can choose to buy or not buy. Go ahead, everyone can stop buying iPhones and see how quickly they will adjust their prices. Truth is, no one cares about the 30%. It might as well be 40%. Users love apple products and is happy to pay the price.
Changing price has ripple effects and long lasting consequences. Maybe not life-threatening right now but could very well be because people eventually will not be able to buy basic food to even survive, but I digress.

Companies clearly can’t price however they want. Government can step in. Market will help to stabilise the price. Go ahead and ask around. For the same iPhone, one costs $1400, and the other cost $2100. See how many people would still pay the same iPhone if Apple jacks up the price by 50%.
 
Changing price has ripple effects and long lasting consequences. Maybe not life-threatening right now but could very well be because people eventually will not be able to buy basic food to even survive, but I digress.

Companies clearly can’t price however they want. Government can step in. Market will help to stabilise the price. Go ahead and ask around. For the same iPhone, one costs $1400, and the other cost $2100. See how many people would still pay the same iPhone if Apple jacks up the price by 50%.
That's the point, the government can step in. But they haven't so don't blame apple.
See how many people will use the iphone after patreon gets charged 30% or 50%. Guess what? The exact same number of users as before.
 
That's the point, the government can step in. But they haven't so don't blame apple.
See how many people will use the iphone after patreon gets charged 30% or 50%. Guess what? The exact same number of users as before.
Patreon isn’t “essential“ by any means, but that’s entirely irrelevant for folks who go against such charge. However, seeing that you are going into fine details to argue the legitimacy of Apple’s 30% commission on virtually nothing, I don’t think there’s much else to be discussed.
Also, just sit back and wait for governments stepping in to intervene. I’d love to see more people realise the 30% commission and have their own thoughts about it. May lead to nothing, but fun nonetheless.
 
Not a corporation's job. Go ahead and pass laws that would require basic food to have a price ceiling. Same for drugs. If you want that kind of law for IAP go ahead. Fact is, no one would support that kind of consumer-hostile environment.
It’s remarkable to think that capping the price of essentials is “consumer-hostile”. But I guess different people have different strokes. Thing is, unlike your “fact”, people LOVE to see the price of essentials being capped. Arguably, IAP is not by any means “essential”, but that doesn’t invalidate the accusation that Apple is being too greedy.

Maybe there are people out there just love to give in more money for less I suppose.
 
Patreon isn’t “essential“ by any means, but that’s entirely irrelevant for folks who go against such charge. However, seeing that you are going into fine details to argue the legitimacy of Apple’s 30% commission on virtually nothing, I don’t think there’s much else to be discussed.
Also, just sit back and wait for governments stepping in to intervene. I’d love to see more people realise the 30% commission and have their own thoughts about it. May lead to nothing, but fun nonetheless.
The legitimacy of commission is not on virtually nothing. It's argued on the basis of capitalism. Unfortunately kids nowadays have no understanding/appreciation of capitalism. The concept that most advancements in society is not possible without the pooling of massive resources (capital). Hold truth going back all the way back at least 1700. Trains are only possible because someone is willing to dump massive amount of resources into building railroads. Once built, it's up to the asset owner to charge whatever the market is willing to bear to maximize returns. Risk taking is rewarded with future returns. Not unlimited returns, but returns open market can afford.

Literally you kids enjoy the fruits of hundred of years of capitalistic advancement (medicine, technology, transportation etc) while hating the very framework that got you here in the first place.

Apple invented mobile computing. The very fact that you have a touch screen phone is the direct result of one company taking risks and pooling resources. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In this case, Apple earned them a powerful position in this platform (but not others, i.e. desktop etc). It's also the very reason Mark wants VR. He's wants the "railroads" of the next platform.

Once the platform is built, you can't 'moralize' what a company should or should not charge. A company will maximize the profit down to the last cent, as one should.

If you don't like this rent seeking behaviour? Easy. Build your own railroads. Wait, you don't want to take the risk? Well then pay the tolls.
 
It’s remarkable to think that capping the price of essentials is “consumer-hostile”. But I guess different people have different strokes. Thing is, unlike your “fact”, people LOVE to see the price of essentials being capped. Arguably, IAP is not by any means “essential”, but that doesn’t invalidate the accusation that Apple is being too greedy.

Maybe there are people out there just love to give in more money for less I suppose.
We don't love to give away money. We love to buy products that we like for the price level that makes sense for us. Right now, most users think the price for an iPhone is reasonable. That's why they sell hundreds of millions of these every year in case you haven't noticed. In order words, no one gives a F about IAP.
 
The legitimacy of commission is not on virtually nothing. It's argued on the basis of capitalism. Unfortunately kids nowadays have no understanding/appreciation of capitalism. The concept that most advancements in society is not possible without the pooling of massive resources (capital). Hold truth going back all the way back at least 1700. Trains are only possible because someone is willing to dump massive amount of resources into building railroads. Once built, it's up to the asset owner to charge whatever the market is willing to bear to maximize returns. Risk taking is rewarded with future returns. Not unlimited returns, but returns open market can afford.

Literally you kids enjoy the fruits of hundred of years of capitalistic advancement (medicine, technology, transportation etc) while hating the very framework that got you here in the first place.

Apple invented mobile computing. The very fact that you have a touch screen phone is the direct result of one company taking risks and pooling resources. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In this case, Apple earned them a powerful position in this platform (but not others, i.e. desktop etc). It's also the very reason Mark wants VR. He's wants the "railroads" of the next platform.

Once the platform is built, you can't 'moralize' what a company should or should not charge. A company will maximize the profit down to the last cent, as one should.

If you don't like this rent seeking behaviour? Easy. Build your own railroads. Wait, you don't want to take the risk? Well then pay the tolls.
You know who can also pour humongous amount of resources to develop something? Governments. Grassroots (big enough crowd). Corporation did help the advancement of human society, no doubt about it. But at the same time, because corporations demand return rather than doing things for the good of the humanity, that advancement comes with burden and condition, which can sometimes drag the society backwards or detour from where it should go.

And kids enjoy the fruits of hundreds of years of capitalistic advancement? Yeah sure let’s ignore even longer period of. Contribution when corporations didn’t really exist, instead generations of farmers and similar tried to transform the origin of the fruit we enjoy today, most of which often much less edible, edible and delicious, all without asking for some colossal amount of return. But let’s just let it slide I suppose, and credit ALL advancements to corporations with the ability to magically speed up thousands of years of progress to just a couple hundred.

Apple never invented mobile computing. Apple didn’t invent anything I’d argue. What Apple did, was refining the existing solutions and innovating on top of that. Mobile computing existed back when commodore was still dominant in the US. Compaq brought mobile computing into mainstream, however primitive it was back then. Going all out with a touch screen when market was flooded with non-touch screen device with tons of buttons was a gamble, but a success one. That I give credit to corporations taking risk and pouring resources to materialise it.

In short, corporation is not the only entity that can pour resources into something. But relentless profit seeking is harmful to the society. Apple definitely has the right to charge what they deserve to survive and thrive, but not at the cost of the entire society. I know you won’t agree with my point, but that’s fine.
 
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You know who can also pour humongous amount of resources to develop something? Governments. Grassroots (big enough crowd). Corporation did help the advancement of human society, no doubt about it. But at the same time, because corporations demand return rather than doing things for the good of the humanity, that advancement comes with burden and condition, which can sometimes drag the society backwards or detour from where it should go.
Not disagreeing with any of this. Governments can also make advancement via pooling of resources (and they have). Sure no argument there. Corporations demand returns, which sometimes do not benefit humanity to the fullest. Yep also no argument there. But I don't see what's the point of this? If government can build the best smartphone platform and charge no IAP fee for it. By all means, I would love it. We don't have it today do we? So what are we even talking about here? The only means in which an iPhone like product can be born, is capitalism. Profit drives innovation.

And kids enjoy the fruits of hundreds of years of capitalistic advancement? Yeah sure let’s ignore even longer period of. Contribution when corporations didn’t really exist, instead generations of farmers and similar tried to transform the origin of the fruit we enjoy today, most of which often much less edible, edible and delicious, all without asking for some colossal amount of return. But let’s just let it slide I suppose, and credit ALL advancements to corporations with the ability to magically speed up thousands of years of progress to just a couple hundred.
Uh....are you even arguing this point in good faith or just arguing for the sake of arguing? Have you measured human progress in the first 10,000 years compared to the last 400? Capitalism is what drives progress. How do you even argue otherwise... ?

Apple never invented mobile computing. Apple didn’t invent anything I’d argue. What Apple did, was refining the existing solutions and innovating on top of that. Mobile computing existed back when commodore was still dominant in the US. Compaq brought mobile computing into mainstream, however primitive it was back then. Going all out with a touch screen when market was flooded with non-touch screen device with tons of buttons was a gamble, but a success one. That I give credit to corporations taking risk and pouring resources to materialise it.
Apple does not need to "invent" iPhone, in the tradition sense. You are thinking invention like the invention of radio waves. No. In businesses, "invent" is an abstract word to roughly mean the assembly of features into a product in such a way that is appealing to customers. That's all one needs to do. If you want to make the future of washing machines, you don't need to invent hydraulics and heat pumps and what not. No. You just have to find a unique combination of features (functions, style, look, brand, size, etc etc) that makes the customers love you. If you do that well enough, guess what, you get to charge whatever price you name. $5000 for a washing machine? Hell yea. No problem. Customers lining up to pay you. Is it greedy? Is it rent seeking? Nope. You just built a really great product. And that's exactly what Apple did.

Apple built a thing called iPhone that costed $500 with a contract (essentially over $1000) feels like a better deal than a $200 blackberry. When you do that, you get to name the price of every thing. Including IAP.

In short, corporation is not the only entity that can pour resources into something. But relentless profit seeking is harmful to the society. Apple definitely has the right to charge what they deserve to survive and thrive, but not at the cost of the entire society. I know you won’t agree with my point, but that’s fine.
Relentless profit seeking has shown to be massively beneficial to the society (but not without flaws of course) if you actually looked at human history.

Remember, I'm not arguing that corporations are perfect. Far from. And with many detriments to society. But on BALANCE, it's the best system we have. And the results speak for itself. There was a China that wasn't capitalistic, then there was a China that is. Ask a chinese which one they would prefer. Compare the quality of life on all measurable metrics.
 
One day? It's been coming like an avalanche with all this anti-trust action around the world. And yet Apple keep on throwing logs onto the fire to try and put it out.
Knowing Timmy Apple, he’ll find a way to let the customers pay if they’re fined by regulators. It’s time customers realize that Apple isn’t at the forefront of innovation anymore. Competition has kept up and copied apples ecosystem in a more friendly customer way (playing nice with other brands or way cheaper to achieve the same). Look at googles offerings in phones… it comes standard with on device AI for the whole range. While Apple promises something similar for next year (only the pro). By the time Apple is ready the competition will be introducing the next wave of possibilities. Apple is following the famous hockey puck these days while not having a glue where it’s heading it seems.
 
Knowing Timmy Apple, he’ll find a way to let the customers pay if they’re fined by regulators. It’s time customers realize that Apple isn’t at the forefront of innovation anymore. Competition has kept up and copied apples ecosystem in a more friendly customer way (playing nice with other brands or way cheaper to achieve the same). Look at googles offerings in phones… it comes standard with on device AI for the whole range. While Apple promises something similar for next year (only the pro). By the time Apple is ready the competition will be introducing the next wave of possibilities. Apple is following the famous hockey puck these days while not having a glue where it’s heading it seems.
It’s time to realize just how big of a gap Apple has built away from its competitors with the combination of hardware+software+services in the past 15 years of iOS innovation. Honestly it’s not even close. Hand a regular user the latest pixel and the latest iPhone (even without AI), no contest they will pick iPhone every single time. I’ve tried android many times over the years, it’s laughingly bad that users have an allergic reason to. It makes sense to Apple charge a big premium for its products and all the other vendors that profit on top of this platform.
 
It’s time to realize just how big of a gap Apple has built away from its competitors with the combination of hardware+software+services in the past 15 years of iOS innovation. Honestly it’s not even close. Hand a regular user the latest pixel and the latest iPhone (even without AI), no contest they will pick iPhone every single time. I’ve tried android many times over the years, it’s laughingly bad that users have an allergic reason to. It makes sense to Apple charge a big premium for its products and all the other vendors that profit on top of this platform.
My guess is that you’ve never tried the other side. The gap that the competition realized these last 5 years is enormous. They all have ecosystems like Apple is offering. Apple has stalled and their products prove it. IPhone 12 = 13 = 14 = 15 =16. Same for Apple Watch, Macs. Their whole lineup. But hey… keep believing you have the best in tech has to offer and believe the propaganda Apple is offering. iPhone SE 😂🤣😂??
Even Samsung is selling more phones than Apple does in the USA. Apple in China??? A few years and they pull out of there because they can’t keep up or justify their prices. They have lowered the iPhone prices three times now in China… can’t keep up 😂😂😂
 
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My guess is that you’ve never tried the other side. The gap that the competition realized these last 5 years is enormous. They all have ecosystems like Apple is offering. Apple has stalled and their products prove it. IPhone 12 = 13 = 14 = 15 =16. Same for Apple Watch, Macs. Their whole lineup. But hey… keep believing you have the best in tech has to offer and believe the propaganda Apple is offering. iPhone SE 😂🤣😂??
Even Samsung is selling more phones than Apple does in the USA. Apple in China??? A few years and they pull out of there because they can’t keep up or justify their prices. They have lowered the iPhone prices three times now in China… can’t keep up 😂😂😂
Is that why andriod market share continues to decline? and iOS continues to go up for US and worldwide? How does what you say make any sense when the data shows the opposite


Screenshot 2024-08-15 at 1.31.20 PM.png

Screenshot 2024-08-15 at 1.31.26 PM.png
 
Is that why andriod market share continues to decline? and iOS continues to go up for US and worldwide? How does what you say make any sense when the data shows the opposite


View attachment 2406414
View attachment 2406415
Exactly. Apples market share worldwide schrunk a bit and Android rose a bit. The world is bigger than Timmy’s office 😊
 
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Exactly. Apples market share worldwide schrunk a bit and Android rose a bit. The world is bigger than Timmy’s office 😊
no thats not what the graph shows. Android is dipping in the past 6 years, iOS going up. Apple innovation is far outstripping Android at this point. Users just plain does not want to use an Android. I suspect the privacy concerns is really starting to gross out users.
 
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I'm surprised Patreon doesn't do what Amazon did with their Kindle apps -- totally remove the previous in-app ability to buy something, so you have to use the web browser. Cuts both Apple and Google right out.
Apple threatened to remove Patreon from the App Store if they tried that
 
Apple threatened to remove Patreon from the App Store if they tried that
Not really, they are allowed to do that. But they won't. Why? Easy, they are getting massive lift in revenue from using Apple's IAP. They are not idiots. They teams and teams of management and financial analysts looking at this to constantly monitor the performance of each channel. They know that even after 30% cut, they are making MORE money, not less, than if they were to turn it off. And this is the reason people should be glad to pay Apple. It's a win-win situation. But then some businesses got greedy and they didnt want to share the rewards.
 
Not really, they are allowed to do that. But they won't. Why? Easy, they are getting massive lift in revenue from using Apple's IAP. They are not idiots. They teams and teams of management and financial analysts looking at this to constantly monitor the performance of each channel. They know that even after 30% cut, they are making MORE money, not less, than if they were to turn it off. And this is the reason people should be glad to pay Apple. It's a win-win situation. But then some businesses got greedy and they didnt want to share the rewards.

From the Patreon blog post:
Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.

Really seems like they’re not going to let them disable buying subscriptions in the app without getting removed from the store
 
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From the Patreon blog post:


Really seems like they’re not going to let them disable buying subscriptions in the app without getting removed from the store
That's Patreon side of the story, they can say what they want. The fact is, apps are allowed to not use IAP if they dont want to lol why is that even debated. Kindle already does that as does 1000000000 other apps
 
Really seems like they’re not going to let them disable buying subscriptions in the app without getting removed from the store
That's Patreon side of the story, they can say what they want. The fact is, apps are allowed to not use IAP if they dont want to lol why is that even debated. Kindle already does that as does 1000000000 other apps

Section 3 speaks to developer rules/requirements regarding in-app purchases:

 
Section 3 speaks to developer rules/requirements regarding in-app purchases:


Section 3 speaks to developer rules/requirements regarding in-app purchases:

exactly. There are no rules in there that says you have to use IAP. Contrary to Patreon is claiming.
 
exactly. There are no rules in there that says you have to use IAP. Contrary to Patreon is claiming.

The question is whether once an app has IAP, can they remove it without risking Apple blocking them? Are the app guidelines legally binding as written or can Apple deem such behavior as evading?

Also, if an app removes IAP, can the app still show the remaining account balance, messages to buy more credits, recommendations to buy through the website, and/or provide links to an unaffiliated e-commerce site (that isn't subject to Apple revenue sharing/audits)? I am assuming the first one is okay and the last one is not (putting aside the EU) and the others are in-between?
 
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