Apple Retains Gibson Dunn Lawyers From Samsung Case to Combat Epic Games

[Ethosik]

All the people rooting for Apple here - are any of you actually developers that sell apps or In-App Purchases?

I can’t imagine anyone that has put in the thousands of hours of work to make an app, then thinks it’s cool that Apple does virtually nothing but receives a 30% cut.

What Apple does here is rent seeking, plain and simple. They’re a leach providing nothing of value. They’re a middle man to an actual payment processor which would charge less than 3% (and Apple has likely negotiated for a much lower rate than the 3% an independent developer would pay.) Apple charges 10x while adding absolutely nothing, just because they can.

The practice is without a doubt immoral, and I expect that at least some courts in the world will find it illegal.

Virtually nothing for 30%? Are you a developer? They host the app, offer billing, offer support, handle refunds, offer discoverability, approve my app so customers can get it with some confidence and much more.

People keep bringing this up. It is not just "Host app - done 30% please"

 

[Ethosik]

People arguing that Apple provides value by providing the platform tend to forget that the apps are what makes the platform valuable. Would you want an iPhone/iPad if it didn’t have Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Netflix, Google Maps, Waze, SnapChat, you banking apps, investment apps, smart home apps, security apps, Slack, MS Office, WeChat, Zoom, Hulu, Disney Plus, Amazon Prime Instant Video, and much more?

Imagine if literally ALL of these third party apps ceased to exist on iPhone and iPad. The platform would be worthless.

So yes, Apple needs third party developers quite badly. They should treat them better.

If that were to happen, either Apple will change their stance or they will let the iPhone die. But will that happen? Its not like Microsoft, Adobe, Affinity and other big companies are complaining about the 30%

 

[PC_tech]

Cue “daddy Apple can do no wrong” people in 3...2...1...

Not big fan of either company btw. I will say.. that quote does put things into perspective. 😬 Wonder how Epic will respond to it..

He already beat you to it.

 

[Ethosik]

If you are a developer, you've probably not been one for long. When I started, we had to spend large sums of money on development tool-kits, IDE's, compilers, access to resources like API documentation, etc. You then needed to spend a small fortune on marketing your products, finding vendors and distributors, providing support mechanisms, handling returns, etc.

IMHO developers have never had it this good. Not only are almost all the tools now provided as part of the developer subscription (in fact, you don't even need the subscription for Xcode, which is still my favourite IDE), but Apple have created a marketplace that has global reach, on a platform that is secure, reliable and easy to develop for. Apple manages all aspects of distribution, ensuring my products can be purchased and distributed in just about any country in the world. I don't even need to worry about different currencies!

Just my two cents worth, I certainly wouldn't want things to go back to how they were before, and I'm happy to pay Apple a percentage on my sales for this totally awesome ecosystem.

10000% agree. I have been a developer for over 15 years now. Things have certainly improved a bit.

 

[TimFL1]

The only example you can cite is amazon, and we all know what apple got in exchange for that - they got equal value, just not as a percentage (an all-encompassing deal including sales of apple hardware through amazon’s etail store, amazon agreeing to support certain sdks For prime video, etc.).

If i sell donuts for a dollar each, and you come in without money and instead offer me your Rolex for a dozen crullers, me accepting that offer is NOT an antitrust violation. It’s the opposite- it’s the free market at work, and it shows that apple is willing to negotiate. Epic has not alleged that it tried to negotiate, nor is there likely anything of value epic could offer that apple would be interested in.

Oh there are plenty more incidents where Apple either closes their eyes or gives special treatment to apps breaking rules.

Look at the Hey Mail incident. To give you a rundown:
- Hey mail gets booted off the App Store for forcing users to log into an account with an active subscription to work
- Apple claims apps with only a login screen and no functionality or way to sign up for said functionality aren‘t allowed
- Hey mail tries to get classified as Reader app, which Apple denies
- Hey mail backs down and introduces a free tier (something Apple suggested)
- Apple lets Hey mail back on the store

Now that whole incident would be perfectly fine, Apple enforces their rules. The thing is... FastMail exists and still works the way Hey mail did before the ban. No rules to be broken there or Apple just doesn‘t care.

Their rulesets are a joke if they aren‘t enforced equally. Anyone who can‘t see that is blind.

 

[dguisinger]

The only example you can cite is amazon, and we all know what apple got in exchange for that - they got equal value, just not as a percentage (an all-encompassing deal including sales of apple hardware through amazon’s etail store, amazon agreeing to support certain sdks For prime video, etc.).

If i sell donuts for a dollar each, and you come in without money and instead offer me your Rolex for a dozen crullers, me accepting that offer is NOT an antitrust violation. It’s the opposite- it’s the free market at work, and it shows that apple is willing to negotiate. Epic has not alleged that it tried to negotiate, nor is there likely anything of value epic could offer that apple would be interested in.

Oh, lets start with Amazon.
Apple....got value from Amazon?

Its one anticompetitive company dealing with another. Do you not know the history of Apple and Amazon?
Amazon abruptly pulled ALL Apple products from their store - not because Apple was refusing to sell products through them, but because Amazon wanted to force its own terms for getting Amazon Prime Video onto Apple's devices.

Apple getting back a distribution channel because Amazon pulled an anti-competitive stunt isn't "Apple getting something". If Apple weren't in such a position that they don't want scrutiny, they should have just sued Amazon.

 

[PC_tech]

Right or wrong, Apple is in the strongest position over this right now. That is all they need. There is no way they are going to give in to any developer, maybe one day they will be forced into 'thinking different', not today, not in this case.

They will when the government tells them too and they are already being looked into, it’s cute how you and others keep conveniently forgetting this little detail 🙄

 

[Born2Run]

All the people rooting for Apple here - are any of you actually developers that sell apps or In-App Purchases?

I can’t imagine anyone that has put in the thousands of hours of work to make an app, then thinks it’s cool that Apple does virtually nothing but receives a 30% cut.

What Apple does here is rent seeking, plain and simple. They’re a leach providing nothing of value. They’re a middle man to an actual payment processor which would charge less than 3% (and Apple has likely negotiated for a much lower rate than the 3% an independent developer would pay.) Apple charges 10x while adding absolutely nothing, just because they can.

The practice is without a doubt immoral, and I expect that at least some courts in the world will find it illegal.

I’m rooting for Apple because I hate developers that put IAP and Ads in their games... I refuse to use them unless I can turn on Airpane mode and still use the app without the annoying bits!

 

[dguisinger]

The only example you can cite is amazon, and we all know what apple got in exchange for that - they got equal value, just not as a percentage (an all-encompassing deal including sales of apple hardware through amazon’s etail store, amazon agreeing to support certain sdks For prime video, etc.).

If i sell donuts for a dollar each, and you come in without money and instead offer me your Rolex for a dozen crullers, me accepting that offer is NOT an antitrust violation. It’s the opposite- it’s the free market at work, and it shows that apple is willing to negotiate. Epic has not alleged that it tried to negotiate, nor is there likely anything of value epic could offer that apple would be interested in.

Or to put it a different way.
Amazon pulled a stunt because they didn't want to play by Apple's rules
Apple gave in, made new rules for Amazon
But its okay because "Apple got what they wanted", which was their Amazon pre-stunt position with half the revenue.

Glad we cleared this up that you actually don't care about the argument you keep making, other than it has to do with EPIC.

 

[jonblatho]

You then needed to spend a small fortune on marketing your products

The App Store doesn't market your app for you unless you're lucky enough to get featured. An overwhelming majority of apps is never featured, and even if you are that lucky, it's often a short-lived boost.

 

[dguisinger]

The App Store doesn't market your app for you unless you're lucky enough to get featured. An overwhelming majority of apps is never featured, and even if you are that lucky, it's often a short-lived boost.

True... or... you can pay to advertise in the App Store. Most companies advertise using other company's names. I believe an example given the other day was TikTok paying to show up first when you search for Netflix. So Apple isn't promoting your app, you are paying Apple on top of anything else you already pay them to list your App higher up.

 

[jonblatho]

True... or... you can pay to advertise in the App Store. Most companies advertise using other company's names. I believe an example given the other day was TikTok paying to show up first when you search for Netflix. So Apple isn't promoting your app, you are paying Apple on top of anything else you already pay them to list your App higher up.

Oh yes, you can pay to put yourself at the top of App Store search results. To be clear, I was referring to the silly notion that an app will be successful by just sitting in the App Store with little/no investment in marketing from the developer, that Apple’s pulled off some miracle for app discovery. They unequivocally haven’t.

 

[Ethosik]

Seriously, people make such dumb arguments about hosting.
If there was no App Store and Apple allowed you to install your own Apps......
Sure... developers would do it easily. As they have for 20+ years on Windows and Mac.

People seem to think hosting an app for download is incredibly hard.... people around here are really pampered to think putting a binary online is either difficult or expensive. Same with payment processing. I realize a lot of you are too young to have actually used a real computer, but its not that hard.

Apple's biggest value here is the ease in which you can find and download... but you know how I find and download at least half my apps? From company websites that have a button for downloading their app from the app store. I don't actually NEED Apple to even get in the middle of that, nor do app developers. Its just a convenience. A convenience of which doesn't round up to costing Apple a single penny since digital distribution is cheaper than dirt.

Sure, very few were side loading Fortnite on Android. But again, that is a cultural issue in my mind. Because anyone playing Fortnite on PC or Mac is side loading.

I'm not arguing for getting rid of the app store, just some of these arguments that keep coming up are pitifully weak and overused. Having an ecosystem of Apps helps Apple sell devices, devices don't sell Apps. People don't buy an iPhone for the experience of having Netflix or Youtube or Fortnite or any other app. If Apple didn't have the most popular cross platform apps, people wouldn't buy Apple. People around here seem to think if Apple kept building iPhones that worked like the first iPhone (Which I owned from day 1) and didn't have a library of apps, that they would have sold 1.5 billion devices.

Actually, look it up. I have some programs on my website. I get downloads from France and several other countries. they report my downloads were very slow a few years ago so I switched to a CDN - CacheFLY. And I don't even get thousands of downloads a month and it get VERY EXPENSIVE. CDN is completely different than hosting. You need your app space * x servers across the world. If my app is 10 GB, it doesn't just take up 10GB, it takes potentially terabytes across all of CacheFLYs servers since there are copies local to countries and even cities.

Apple does this, they not only host your app in California, but its CDN level. Which means you need to take up space at each site.

 

[PC_tech]

good to see Florian Mueller - a good source
aapl good move to select dunn firm

He’s an Apple shill....

 

[typecase]

With all the litigation, I thought Apple would have their own prestige law firm inside Apple HQ. Suprised they still have to hire outside counsel.

 

[Ethosik]

I just don't understand people like you. Do you live in constant fear?
Having used the internet since 1994, and downloaded thousands of applications and tools...... malware? Maybe its been an issue once. Countless hours getting the runaround on the phone? Muhahaha, you clearly haven't had my experience with the "buy an apple product, get a free year of AppleTV+"..... that was several hours on the phone being bounced between every department in Apple until they finally gave up and shipped me a FREE AppleTV which also came with a subscription because they couldn't figure out why their system wasn't activating from my MBP16. Don't act like Apple is unique and that you never have to pick up a phone and get involved.

The fact that you are here, on this site, discussing tech related news means you are different than most of the world. My Grandma has gotten in to some trouble with Android phones because she to some malicious apps. Also, her Windows computer was a complete mess until we got her Windows 10 S which only allows apps from the Microsoft Store.

My parents, grandparents, family members, and more don't have the technical skills you and I do. And even I have gotten bit a few times over the years just because a legitimate website got malicious ads which downloaded stuff on my system.

 

[NotTooLate]

Of course developers want a choice , lets say we get an alt store even several , then those developers will get a better deal then they get on the app store , they only need to implement certain tracking features and they are game.

What will happen is that for example Facebook will withdraw their app from the app store on day 1 , you will download it from their store (or the competing store) and Apple cant enforce their privacy models anymore because you are not violating the store guidelines , you will get gambling and porn apps swarming all over the place , and all the apps will be back to selling your data.

The developers will be pleased as they will make more money , but consumers ?
The notion that Apple have to accept every app on their platform is crazy to me , is it wrong from them to not allow porn ? is it wrong for them to force developers to not collect your data ?

Some posters here couple the developer and the consumer together as if they stand together vs Apple , far from the truth.

You tell me how Facebook having their App not being vetted by Apple and are again allowed to track you is anyway better for the consumer ? or how disabling "sign up with Apple" is better for the consumer (as those apps wont be implementing those features of course).
How does having your kid going into an alt store to download a game and seeing those porn apps or gambling apps is better for the consumer.

I dont see how the consumer is getting ANY meaningful benefit here vs the amount of downside the entire iOS users are about to get , because as i said not a SINGLE major 3rd party app will stay on the app store when they can be back to selling your data for crazy amount of money.

The developers will of course NOT want to have both of their Apps on both the Apple store and the competing store , with the excuse that ppl will want to purchase from the App store thus hurting them , but isnt this an abuse of power from the developer ? forcing the consumer to buy/download it through a store that it doesnt want to deal with ?

Why having Facebook force you to download their app outside the app store is OK ? which you know they will as they want to track you without Apple slapping them across the face , if you want an equal playing field have the SAME exact app on both stores , no ******** tracking added.

 

[Ethosik]

Sounds to me like you have no understanding of how business works

You do know that Visual Studio Professional is quite costly for developers? There is the community edition, but it has some limitations. If I wanted to develop something with 6 other people, I would be required to use the Pro license x 6. It gets quite costly. Xcode has none of these restrictions.

 

[dguisinger]

Actually, look it up. I have some programs on my website. I get downloads from France and several other countries. they report my downloads were very slow a few years ago so I switched to a CDN - CacheFLY. And I don't even get thousands of downloads a month and it get VERY EXPENSIVE. CDN is completely different than hosting. You need your app space * x servers across the world. If my app is 10 GB, it doesn't just take up 10GB, it takes potentially terabytes across all of CacheFLYs servers since there are copies local to countries and even cities.

Apple does this, they not only host your app in California, but its CDN level. Which means you need to take up space at each site.

I know how it works, I build cloud-based apps. Its still not that difficult or expensive in the grand scheme of things. If it was super expensive, I would feel differently about this. Apple should charge free apps for their distribution costs if its so horrendously expensive. Unless there is a benefit to Apple to have more apps.... but then, many of the arguments used for "pro 30%" disappear.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple has aggregated the best customers in the world, and its value is in the customer acquisition for the developer.

The chief reason why people are more open to purchasing apps is because they can install it with a tap from the App Store. Just as importantly - they can get rid of it if they later decided that they didn’t like it. This is the reason I have purchased as many apps as I have and Apple deserves credit for that.

Way more apps than if I had to visit individual websites and purchase them individually.

This is precisely Apple’s argument - It’s not just that they have a “monopoly” on iOS devices. It’s that they have created a trusted environment filled with customers who have credit cards already on file such that trying and buying apps is far more low friction than it would be elsewhere.

Now we can argue how much Apple should take, how much Apple should allow different business models, how they should be more or less strict with curation, etc, but the point is that what Apple has done here is significantly more valuable than simple payment processing. Why should they be barred from capturing that value?

Also, keep in mind that Fortnite was outside of the Google Play Store for quite some time. However, most of Android's user base was not getting it because they prefer the Google Play Store. So Fortnite went back on the store just this year I think.

People act like Sideloading is the holy grail, but Android proves it doesn't always work.

 

[dguisinger]

You do know that Visual Studio Professional is quite costly for developers? There is the community edition, but it has some limitations. If I wanted to develop something with 6 other people, I would be required to use the Pro license x 6. It gets quite costly. Xcode has none of these restrictions.

Actually I use Visual Studio Enterprise. But I can get free versions of Visual Studio if I want. Let Apple charge for xcode if they feel its necessary, let all developers pay for it. Or... just maybe... since Apple uses Xcode internally and for both OSs, and having millions of Apps make their platforms worth the premium prices they charge, it should just be expected that they have developer tools as a cost of doing business. Pay, or pay not, no reason to force some apps to subsidize it as part of their payment transactions and not others.

 

[Ethosik]

LOL Such a joke. No idea how old he/she is, but I've downloaded (and distributed) software online for 30 years. Its not rocket science, its not expensive. I find half my iOS apps from websites with the big "Download from App Store" button, Apple isn't providing that discovery service for me.

Does Apple provide value? Sure. 30% worth on In-App purchases? Absolutely not. Apple Haters.....you guys sure are a friendly group. I get defined in that category around here all the time, yet between me and my businesses, I've bought over $100k of Apple products in the last 20 years...and I seem to constantly get told to go use a PC or Android. People can disagree with business practices without being Apple "Haters"
[automerge]1597847218[/automerge]


You could turn that around. If App developers didn't provide anything of value, Apple shouldn't bother with allowing 3rd party applications. I'm sure they would sell billions of units without 3rd party apps.

Not expensive? Are you SERIOUS? My CacheFLY bill alone is $500 a month. I barely make up for that cost. I also have my Squarespace bill, Visual Studio bill, marketing bills and much more.

 

[cmaier]

With all the litigation, I thought Apple would have their own prestige law firm inside Apple HQ. Suprised they still have to hire outside counsel.

There are some things only outside counsel are allowed to do! (For example, when two companies sue each other, often times inside counsel is not allowed to see documents from the other company, even if those documents are of critical importance in the lawsuit).

 

[dguisinger]

Not expensive? Are you SERIOUS? My CacheFLY bill alone is $500 a month. I barely make up for that cost. I also have my Squarespace bill, Visual Studio bill, marketing bills and much more.

Then go use an AppStore and stop whining so much.... let others have the choice that you have.

 

[Ethosik]

Then go use an AppStore and stop whining so much.... let others have the choice that you have.

You are making an argument that hosting, and all the tools needed that Apple provides is not expensive. When it, in fact, is way more expensive to do that on your own.