Apple Reveals All-New Mac Pro With Up to 28-Core Processor and 1.5TB of RAM, Starting at $5,999

[sidewinder3000]

Well yes, putting together 8-core cpu, low end gpu and an iphone storage size, on the $2k+ motherboard, in the $6k machine - it could be considered a hell of an innovation for sure.
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If I were Mr Cook, with customer base like that, I would cut down specs a little bit (maybe some $1k+ mb instead of $2k+), raise the base model price to the cca $7k, and it still will be a solid investment.

You can cherry pick features to fit some predetermined narrative you have about the Mac Pro all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that this machine is a monster, there’s nothing like it on the market, and well-configured models will deliver blazing, best in class speeds for music and film production pros that have never been seen before.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

That’s the thing, they announce these at developer events, and target it not for developers.

Yah because developers absolutely have no interest in knowing what kind of power will be available towards the end of the year. They wouldn’t be interested in, you know, developing software for it. In fact, it makes you wonder why they announced iPad OS, too. I mean, you can’t code on it...

 

[ct2k7]

Yah because developers absolutely have no interest in knowing what kind of power will be available towards the end of the year. They wouldn’t be interested in, you know, developing software for it. In fact, it makes you wonder why they announced iPad OS, too. I mean, you can’t code on it...

By that logic, developers should also be invited to special events or all new hardware releases should be at WWDC.

Has that happened? No.

 

[Stephen.R]

By that logic

I think logic left the room when you make the assumption that developers can't/won't use a Mac Pro.

 

[ct2k7]

I think logic left the room when you make the assumption that developers can't/won't use a Mac Pro.

I didn’t make that assumption. I am questioning the mode of reveal with the very heavy stance towards media creators to a room full of developers.

However, since you are keen on correcting me, please show me how it’s marketed at developers.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Stephen.R]

please show me how it’s marketed at developers.

It’s got a reasonable number of cores and memory out of the box, is configurable (after purchase with the memory) to have a bunch of cores and a **** load of memory, and it doesn’t force a video-focused gpu in the base config like the previous Mac Pro and current iMac Pro.

Computers “default” to general purpose, show me how this is specialised so much to video editing that it’s not suitable for a developer?

 

[09872738]

Computers “default” to general purpose, show me how this is specialised so much to video editing that it’s not suitable for a developer?

Maybe because for the majority of developers its overkill, therefor too expensive. Shelling out 6000 is just too much for, say, a web developer (and that's not even enough, so the upgrade to 1 a TB SSD is almost a necessity)

 

[Stephen.R]

for the majority of developers its overkill

For the majority of people who edit video (hint: not people making movies or tv shows) it's probably overkill, moreso than for a developer.

For a developer, even a "web developer" (unless you just mean someone who makes Wordpress themes or writes static html and css, and then I'd argue your definition is just.. wrong), I would argue that 8 cores and 32Gb is most definitely not overkill.

I'll grant you that it's a reasonable chance that a lot of developers wouldn't necessarily use extra PCI-E slots, but we've already literally seen where a new video card can extend the life of a Mac Pro, and hardware support generally getting longer. (e.g. A 2006 original Mac Pro was "cut off" from OS updates with Mac OS X 10.8, 6 years later, a 2010 Mac Pro will be "cut off" from OS updates with macOS 10.15, 9 years later. Sometimes the cut off is less "forgiving", e.g. the 2012 Mac Pro is also cut off later this year, at 7 years. But the trend is still definitely longer support on progressively newer hardware.).

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see developers buy a base-model machine, simply for the ability to upgrade video card and memory later. Based on the 2013 Mac Pro, and the way the spec page shows things, I wouldn't rule out socketed storage (even if proprietary, OWC/etc have made Mac-specific storage modules before) until we know for sure it's otherwise.

As I've said before, I can imagine non-video users of a machine like this getting a decade of use out of it, in one way or another. Yesterdays pro workstation is easily tomorrows office server or build node, or what have you. Who's going to do that with an iMac Pro?

Shelling out 6000 is just too much for, say, a web developer

I can assure you there are people who you would vaguely classify as "web developers" who spend more per year on hardware than that Mac Pro will cost over it's lifetime. Consider it this way: the base Mac Pro is about the same price as 2 2018 Mac minis with maxed out CPU and memory, and half a TB of internal storage each. I fully expect the Mac Pro to long outlast one of those Mini's for useful life.

and that's not even enough, so the upgrade to 1 a TB SSD is almost a necessity

Again with this "it's overkill" and yet "it's not enough". What is it you expect your mythical developer to be doing that they need a terabyte of local, internal storage?


I'm not saying all developers can or will or should use, or want to use this. I'm saying this obsession with claiming that (a) it's too expensive for developers and (b) it doesn't have what developers use/need is a fallacy.

 

[09872738]

Again with this "it's overkill" and yet "it's not enough". What is it you expect your mythical developer to be doing that they need a terabyte of local, internal storage?

Well, as a developer myself I can explain:

My projects directory alone is about 500 GB. Project files, source code, image and video data (for ML training, etc). A terabyte is a reasonable amount of storage; 256 isn't. At that price its ridiculous to even argue about it. At 6000 starting price it should be included, period.

However, a Xeon including the logicboard IS overkill, for it can do nothing an i7 couldn't do from a developers point of view. ECC does not help either.

I never actually came across someone who benefitted from ECC RAM tbh. ECC may be a requirement for server applications, maybe rendering farms, I don't know, not my field of expertise. However, for development it just is not needed. It is very very likely safe to say that if an app crashes, or a compiler, or whatever, the cause was not the RAM being non-ECC.

So yes, the Mac Pro is overkill with respect to cpu and logicboard used and its at the same time inadequate in terms of storage and, potentially, depending on field, GPU. Or in other words, you could build a developer machine at roughly half the price without making any sacrifices whatsoever.
Its kind of strange to even argue about; assuming every developer and/or creative had to spend 3000 to throw out of the window we'd be living in an ideal world.
Unfortunately, most of us have to consider their spending. As a developer machine this is just very bad value for money. Not a bad machine by itself, of course, but the value preposition is not good at all.

Just compare the classic Mac Pro with the new one: in 2010 starting price was somewhere around 2500. Today its more than twice that, without providing that much more value. Yes, the CPU is fast. Just as it's been back then (relatively).

I'm not saying all developers can or will or should use, or want to use this. I'm saying this obsession with claiming that (a) it's too expensive for developers and (b) it doesn't have what developers use/need is a fallacy.

As I just explained, you are wrong here. Sure, some of the shortcomings can be overcome by spending even more money (on SSD, GPU, for example).

But even then, the machine cannot be used by developers in the machine learning field because this field is factually close to 100 % depending on CUDA.
Now, of course, this is not due a tech limitation of the Mac Pro itself. But for a developer or researcher (or college) this is irrelevant; she simply cannot use this machine for serious ML applications, at any price.

 

[ct2k7]

It’s got a reasonable number of cores and memory out of the box, is configurable (after purchase with the memory) to have a bunch of cores and a **** load of memory, and it doesn’t force a video-focused gpu in the base config like the previous Mac Pro and current iMac Pro.

Computers “default” to general purpose, show me how this is specialised so much to video editing that it’s not suitable for a developer?

The specs, are very general, for the base, and it's meant to be for "everyone" (of it's target). Visit the Mac Pro home page (US); half of the page is dedicated to graphics. There's only a small print for build time, and most devs aren't inhibited by build speed (most devs nowadays work on MBPs, I'd wager). What exactly are web developers doing with all that power? Surely they're not running CI workflows in parallel on their machine.

Actually, I don't know many developer using a Mac Pro, in the 2013 state.

 

[Stephen.R]

Project files, source code, image and video data (for ML training, etc).

Oh great, so the "web developer" example you cited as needing "1tb as a necessity" is actually doing machine learning? Sure they sound like fields with lots of crossover

However, a Xeon including the logicboard IS overkill, for it can do nothing an i7 couldn't do from a developers point of view. ECC does not help either.

Well the base Xeon in the Mac Pro supports 3x the memory channels, 8x the memory, 4x the number of PCI-E lanes, so I guess it depends what you mean by "couldn't do". The key one there is probably actually PCI-E lanes I'd imagine.

As I just explained, you are wrong here.

Oh great, see there I was thinking people have opinions, but apparently you're the grand wizard of all computer users and know what works for other people, and what they need?

But even then

Even then, you've moved the goal posts of your own argument more times than the groundskeeper on a high school football pitch.
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Visit the Mac Pro home page (US);

I forgot that the usefulness of a computer is defined by the initial marketing page for a pre-release product. How silly of me.


I don't know how you people "consider" a computer, but I look at the actual specs, not "hey we tested it with X". By your own argument, the MacBook Pro is also not targeted at developers, because the "home page" is full of content about photo and video editing.

 

[ct2k7]

How silly of me.


I don't know how you people "consider" a computer, but I look at the actual specs, not "hey we tested it with X". By your own argument, the MacBook Pro is also not targeted at developers, because the "home page" is full of content about photo and video editing.

They use MBPs for coding lessons at stores, not MPs. there’s also a larger section for coding and engineering on the page.

Please tell me again what use a web developer will have with 16 cores and 32GB RAM.

 

[Stephen.R]

Actually, I don't know many developer using a Mac Pro, in the 2013 state.

Being forced to buy not just one but two high end (for the time) GPUs doesn’t really make it that attractive to non-video workflows.
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They use MBPs for coding lessons at stores, not MPs.

People learn to drive in ****** little Honda’s and Toyota’s, I guess there’s no need for bigger cars?

Please tell me again what use a web developer will have with 16 cores and 32GB RAM.

I didn’t make this about “web developers”, did I? I said developers. Someone else somehow imagined up a “web developer” who also does ML and thus the Mac Pro is simultaneously too expensive and underpowered and overpowered for the same person apparently. But really “developer” is a pretty broad term the way non-technical people use it.

To answer your question more generically, a common use for more cores and memory is virtual machines.



One last time, for those who are somehow butt hurt this machine doesn’t suit prosumers who want to fart around making cute cat videos:

This machine will be used by some developers. Not all, and maybe not a lot. But to suggest it’s suited purely to video editors is absurd.

 

[ct2k7]

Being forced to buy not just one but two high end (for the time) GPUs doesn’t really make it that attractive to non-video workflows.

Or audio professionals.

But would be useful for model simulation engineering
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Being forced to buy not just one but two high end (for the time) GPUs doesn’t really make it that attractive to non-video workflows.
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People learn to drive in ****** little Honda’s and Toyota’s, I guess there’s no need for bigger cars?



I didn’t make this about “web developers”, did I? I said developers. Someone else somehow imagined up a “web developer” who also does ML and thus the Mac Pro is simultaneously too expensive and underpowered and overpowered for the same person apparently. But really “developer” is a pretty broad term the way non-technical people use it.

To answer your question more generically, a common use for more cores and memory is virtual machines.



One last time, for those who are somehow butt hurt this machine doesn’t suit prosumers who want to fart around making cute cat videos:

This machine will be used by some developers. Not all, and maybe not a lot. But to suggest it’s suited purely to video editors is absurd.

Where I live, there is no need for bigger cars. Any no, not many people choose to drive in cars to which you adhered to, at least not here.

Developers as you said is a very broad term. As you’ve rightly said, virtual machines are a valid use case. Most engineers nowadays are not using that any virtual machines that 16 threads are required.

Quite frankly, I’m getting tired of people thinking that this machine is for those who wish to peruse the Internet, watch videos etc. It isn’t. No one is claiming it is.
I didn’t say that it was purely suited to the, just that it was heavily targeted at them.

Were you at the Pro Studio event on Tuesday?

 

[Stephen.R]

Were you at the Pro Studio event on Tuesday?

I was driving to the beach on Tuesday, so no.

 

[09872738]

Oh great, so the "web developer" example you cited as needing "1tb as a necessity" is actually doing machine learning? Sure they sound like fields with lots of crossover

Just a point to consider: Maybe they got a lot of images from their clients to put on sites? The occasional video, perhaps? I wonder where they save those assets?
Btw: where did I state my sample refers to web devs only?

Well the base Xeon in the Mac Pro supports 3x the memory channels, 8x the memory, 4x the number of PCI-E lanes, so I guess it depends what you mean by "couldn't do". The key one there is probably actually PCI-E lanes I'd imagine.

An i7 or, even better, Ryzen 3 is not that much inferior, if at all. No point for a Xeon, really

Even then, you've moved the goal posts of your own argument more times than the groundskeeper on a high school .

I certainly did not, and you know that very well. You are aware that not only you are unreasonable, you also deny to learn from what is pointed out to you.

I just explained to you why a developer might need more than 256 GB, all you do is mocking on a personal level. Sorry, I refuse to argue on that niveau.

 

[ct2k7]

I was driving to the beach on Tuesday, so no.

There were 4 demo rooms in there, two of them consisting of video/camera, the other being AI and one more with audio.

I did ask if they had any demos of engineering applications, and they said that they did not as they wanted to showcase the power of it in media creation scenarios but said that most developers could take advantage of “running hundreds of iOS simulators” simultaneously. I actually don’t know how useful this really is...

Don’t get me wrong, I feel this is an amazing machine and I’m excited for it, I just get mixed feelings about it when I think of how it was presented to us.

Attendees could select time slots to view the machine, but the only slots were available on one day. The on-site staff were generally useful, but it’s clear that their main focus was video over than anything else, which was apparently clear in my conversations with them.

Let me see if I can extract the photos they have in the WWDC app.

 

[boast]

Maybe because for the majority of developers its overkill, therefor too expensive. Shelling out 6000 is just too much for, say, a web developer

Only if their bosses are cheapskates

But I am sure there are plenty of departments out there willing to shell out the cash

 

[falainber]

You can cherry pick features to fit some predetermined narrative you have about the Mac Pro all you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that this machine is a monster, there’s nothing like it on the market, and well-configured models will deliver blazing, best in class speeds for music and film production pros that have never been seen before.

Don't be ridiculous. HP, Dell and probably countless other PC vendors offer duals socket workstations that are twice as powerfull (two Xeon processors, up to 4 GPUs, ap to 10 HD/SSD drives, up to 3TB RAM).

 

[toke lahti]

Xeons and 15k$+ price tags are good for some.
Then there is The Rest Of Us.
Who want expandable headless mac.

Base model price for that was in
2009-2012 $2499
2008 $2799
2006 $2499
2005 $1999
2004 $1499
2003 $1299
...
1999 $1599
...
1996 $2399
1995 $3999
1994 $4250

This was back then, when Apple had to make their money with desktop computers.
With money coming from laptops & iphones:
2013 $2999 (not so expandeble, but...)
2019 $5999

...and so many people here say this is okay?
Maybe even lots of people who are not doing high-end video post production?
You don't see the BIG problem here?
I don't know if the income rates in the US have been so polarized that there are only 2 groups: those to whom $5999 is nothing and those who will not even dream about it?

If the starting point of new MP would have been something like $2999, I guess they would sell 10x of the new model.
$3999 would have made probably 3x sales at least.
The message here is: we don't want to sell a lot of these, this is a flagship to admire and to show off to make impression to your clients.

Democratization of digital tools and "rip, mix & burn" culture has long died.

People here say that Xeon chips cost $xxxx!
Anybody thought how much they costed before?
How did Apple managed to sell those MP's so cheap?
Well, they don't pay the price of what you find in newegg.

Anybody know have there been any funny expensive mac that has been popular enough?
Will this be the first one?
Or do they drop the prices after xmas?
Or bring out cheaper models?
I'll be sure to check out bi-annually...

 

[Stephen.R]

Don’t get me wrong, I feel this is an amazing machine and I’m excited for it, I just get mixed feelings about it when I think of how it was presented to us.

I think some of the presentation is Apple being Apple.

They don’t like to talk about things that might be considered “competition”, or outside the “Apple focused” dev world.

I use Macs but don’t really develop specifically for Macs - most of what I write is theoretically cross platform but runs on Linux servers in 99% of cases.

I actually wrote Tim an email last year basically expressing that I felt somewhat lost for choice because their Mac desktops all focused heavily on video (dual GPUs minimum, Vega minimum, etc).

They already delivered (and I bought) the Mac mini to deliver reasonable desktop performance without an over the top gpu (unfortunately I think they should have been more specific with their description of its ability to run multiple 4K displays, but that’s off topic). This I see as a follow-on from that, with a return to reasonable (for most uses) base spec and upgrades as you require them.

Of course it is expensive and sure if it was cheaper it’d be more appealing price wise but I don’t know if it would be as appealing if it lost anything significantly in order to reduce price.

 

[mountain]

Only if their bosses are cheapskates

But I am sure there are plenty of departments out there willing to shell out the cash

I don't think you're talking about. Can you name me some departments out there that are willing to shell out this kind of cash for a computer? Actually, how about go around your company and take some pics to show us what kind of computers you guys are using.

 

[venom600]

Only if their bosses are cheapskates

But I am sure there are plenty of departments out there willing to shell out the cash

I just got done watching a video on 4k that says that even movie studios are so cost conscious they will not even switch to 4k cameras, let alone 6 or 8k. 99% of the "4k" stuff you see in theaters and at home was either shot in 2k or had 2k editing done via digital intermediate. No one produces 4k special effects. Everything is then upscaled from 2k (roughly 1080p). The people this computer is meant to be used by don't even use anything higher than 2k because of cost and time. These are not places looking to spend 6 grand on a computer that is slower than a high end consumer PC.

(

)

 

[toke lahti]

Those look like displayport with TB port next to them.

Nope, those L-connectors are regular sata.
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Simple, you are going to *not* populate those RAM slots... and let others have the RAM they need ;-)

You know, if there's a unused port in The Mac, it cripples the user experience.
Maybe it's the same thing with ram slots?
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First, it should be noted that the 8-core configuration can only handle 1 TB RAM (the 1.5 TB figure applies to the higher-cored processors). Having said that, I know of high-performance computing centers that offer specialized high-memory compute nodes for memory-bound tasks, which are configured with 16 cores and 1 TB RAM per node. So I suppose it is possible that certain memory-bound workloads could use 1 TB RAM without maxing out even an 8-core CPU. It would be interesting to hear from someone that does this sort of computing. More commonly, of course, the higher RAM amounts would be configured with higher-cored processors.

Also, it would be interesting to hear, why would they choose a mac?
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Your statement is what is ridiculous. It reminds me of Medion computers. They used to buy high-end components, then tied them together in an utterly crappy way. As a result, I had a high end computer incapable of doing mundane tasks. Compare apples to apples, please, and take into account everything you're getting, not just the bare components.

Does MP from 2007-2012 remind you of Medion?
Can you enlighten us, how & why Apple did offer a Xeon workstation for roughly $2.5k for so many years?
Were they taking losses for each & every MP sold?
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I've not read through the entire thread, but I think the only potential reasonable ground for complaint with the 7,1 MP is that it is a single socket. On the other hand, with a 28 core CPU option, it seems unlikely that raw CPU power will be an issue, though it is interesting that HP offers the Z8 with a dual socket option. Albeit at a considerable price . . .

Can there be a situation where you get more bang for the buck with dual cpu config than with single cpu with most expensive xeon on the planet?
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I just got done watching a video on 4k that says that even movie studios are so cost conscious they will not even switch to 4k cameras, let alone 6 or 8k. 99% of the "4k" stuff you see in theaters and at home was either shot in 2k or had 2k editing done via digital intermediate. No one produces 4k special effects. Everything is then upscaled from 2k (roughly 1080p). The people this computer is meant to be used by don't even use anything higher than 2k because of cost and time. These are not places looking to spend 6 grand on a computer that is slower than a high end consumer PC.
(

)

That video is just plain wrong.
Most big budget movies are shot with Arri Alexas.
https://www.arri.com/resource/blob/...ri-formatsandresolutionsoverview-2-9-data.pdf
Can you or that youtubber define what is 4k camera?
Does it need 35Mpx sensor (before debayer) or less?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

By that logic, developers should also be invited to special events

Some developers ARE invited to Apple’s special events. But, by the nature of them being SPECIAL events, they invite SPECIAL developers.

or all new hardware releases should be at WWDC.

And no, logically it doesn’t mean that and if you’re not aware of what kind of logical arguments those are that you made, well, that’s on you. Logically, it means that this release is so important for developers that certain important developers already have their hands on pre-release systems. AND, since you have all the developers coming together anyway, why not let them all know about it?