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Desktop Macs are a small fraction of Macs, the Mac Pro is a fraction of a fraction, and the niche caught in the middle isn’t much bigger either

You’ve got a chicken/egg dilemma here. Are desktop macs a small fraction of sales because demand is low, or are they a small fraction of sales because the supply is thin? I think you’re over-eager to fit the data to your conclusion and not the other way around.

I mean, is it any shock that a 2013 era trash can Mac Pro is barely selling? Is it due to soft demand for a $3k-$4k headless Mac or is it more likely because there isn’t a market for 2012 era Xeons in mid-2019?

You’re quick to conclude that nobody wants a Mac at that price level, but I don’t think that’s a sound conclusion.

All of Apple’s current headless Mac solutions are really weird or compromised in one way or another. That’s just as likely to be the reason for poor sales in my opinion. The trash can is over five years old now, the Mac Mini is sealed and suffers from thermal limitations, and the new Mac Pro is near double the historical price of that product.

It should come as no surprise that they aren’t doing well in Apple’s Mac sales.
 
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You’ve got a chicken/egg dilemma here. Are desktop macs a small fraction of sales because demand is low, or are they a small fraction of sales because the supply is thin? I think you’re over-eager to fit the data to your conclusion and not the other way around.

Very true, I was about to write exactly the same. The disappointed reactions to the new Mac Pro are telling. Not that the nMP is a bad machine, it just does not address the majority of potential customers. How could Mac desktop sales be better? Apple does not offer one, so naturally desktop Mac sales are non-existent

I‘d bet a decent Mac tower inbetween the Mini and the Pro would be the best selling desktop Mac, by far exceeding both the Mini as well as the Pro and certainly the iMac Pro (which, btw, is a miracle. Its development just didn‘t make any sense at all. Yet they did it at staggering costs. They could‘ve developed two towers for sure at lower costs. Very strange).
 
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Very true, I was about to write exactly the same. The disappointed reactions to the new Mac Pro are telling. Not that the nMP is a bad machine, it just does not address the majority of potential customers.

I‘d bet a decent Mac tower inbetween the Mini and the Pro would be the best selling desktop Mac, by far exceeding both the Mini as well as the Pro and certainly the iMac Pro (which, btw, is a miracle. Its development just didn‘t make any sense at all. Yet they did it. Very strange).
Exactly. They didn't have this, so I made my own. I didn't want to, but I wanted exactly what you describe.
 
I‘d bet a decent Mac tower inbetween the Mini and the Pro would be the best selling desktop Mac, by far exceeding both the Mini as well as the Pro and certainly the iMac Pro (which, btw, is a miracle. Its development just didn‘t make any sense at all. Yet they did it. Very strange).
Well, you can hook up an e-GPU to a Mac mini, though I guess that wouldn’t be upgradable enough for you.

But I guess we may never know (with regards to how well a Mac tower might far sales-wise).
 
Well, you can hook up an e-GPU to a Mac mini, though I guess that wouldn’t be upgradable enough for you.

But I guess we may never know (with regards to how well a Mac tower might far sales-wise).
eGPU? Ugly and dysfunctional workaround. The Mini is thermally limited. No replaceable SSD. No space for harddisks. No space for PCIe extensions. The Mini is what it is, and that‘s ok. But it will never become a powerhouse and/or tower replacement
 
eGPU? Ugly and dysfunctional workaround. The Mini is thermally limited. No replaceable SSD. No space for harddisks. No space for PCIe extensions. The Mini is what it is, and that‘s ok. But it will never become a powerhouse and/or tower replacement
Exactly. The only option is to create your own. Then it is infinitely expandable and the thermal profiles are great!
 
Exactly. The only option is to create your own. Then it is infinitely expandable and the thermal profiles are great!
Yes the mini is fine for its intended market, but it’s no powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination. The 2019 Mac Pro will be welcomed by pros who were left without a viable option when Apple released the 2013 cylinder. Might very well be too expensive for those who don’t use their Mac to generate revenue, however.
 
The new MacPro would be an investment into the future, I guess. It has to with this high price. And it's gonna be much more expensive with HDD and SDD "carriers", as you cant just plug them in. So we'd have to spend another 100$ for a loisy HDD slot. Also there are still many questions open like, can we buy the GPU carrier empty? Can we just add a PC GPU later? What about updating the CPU? Many questions about an extremly expensive computer. And there is still a 5K external monitor missing (from Apple).

I'd need a Mac between MacMini and the MacPro, but I'm afraid we'll never see it happen. Apple completely failed, from my point of view.
 
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The new MacPro would be an investment into the future, I guess. It has to with this high price. And it's gonna be much more expensive with HDD and SDD "carriers", as you cant just plug them in. So we'd have to spend another 100$ for a loisy HDD slot. Also there are still many questions open like, can we buy the GPU carrier empty? Can we just add a PC GPU later? What about updating the CPU? Many questions about an extremly expensive computer. And there is still a 5K external monitor missing (from Apple).

I'd need a Mac between MacMini and the MacPro, but I'm afraid we'll never see it happen. Apple completely failed, from my point of view.
The 2019 Mac Pro isn’t targeted at the home/consumer market. It’s mostly for business/corporate use, and pros who use it to generate revenue. It covers the low, mid and high range of requirements for Apple customers who want/need an expandable tower instead of an all-in-one like iMac Pro.
 
. It covers the low, mid (...) .

It certainly does not cover the low and mid ranges; it is of course way too expensive for these markets.

I agree on the high and to some degree (movie creators) very high requirements spectrum of customers. For others (the machine learning and AI research fields) Apple does not offer a single computer, so the MP is a total fail in that regard
 
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It certainly does not cover the low and mid ranges; it is of course way too expensive for these markets.

I agree on the high and to some degree (movie creators) very high requirements spectrum of customers. For others (the machine learning and AI research fields) Apple does not offer a single computer, so the MP is a total fail in that regard
The 2019 doesn’t cover the highest end since it’s only a single-CPU machine. But it certainly does cover the low and mid range of pro requirements, in addition to higher range; it’s the cut-down version some want that would be unable to cover low/mid/high. The 2019 will do that brilliantly, with lots of expansion capacity to extend its useful lifespan, for even better value.

It’s not “way too expensive” in the least. Any pro who could afford a 2013 Mac Pro can afford the 2019. It’s that simple.

Re: CUDA support, I don’t see why Windows or Linux wouldn’t be able to use nvidia GPUs. We may even see a driver for Catalina, who knows? (But I wouldn’t hold my breath.)
 
It’s not “way too expensive” in the least. Any pro who could afford a 2013 Mac Pro can afford the 2019. It’s that simple.

Re: CUDA support, I don’t see why Windows or Linux wouldn’t be able to use nvidia GPUs. We may even see a driver for Catalina, who knows? (But I wouldn’t hold my breath.)

Of course its much too expensive, stop kidding. Its more than twice the starting price compared to the cMP or trashcan.
So, yes, it is that simple. Just in the opposite direction you insinuated.

Not sure what you try to say in the last paragraph - both Linux and Windows run CUDA. I don't get how this is related to the MP.
Anyway, I agree, would be nice to see CUDA drivers in Catalina. Not too much hope there, though
 
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The 2019 Mac Pro isn’t targeted at the home/consumer market. It’s mostly for business/corporate use, and pros who use it to generate revenue. It covers the low, mid and high range of requirements for Apple customers who want/need an expandable tower instead of an all-in-one like iMac Pro.
Your mileage for "low range" may vary.
For us "old timers", the desire for "affordable expandable desktop" might come from the era 25-15 years ago, when suddenly the digitalization democratized making "pro grade" video.
Price for the tools dropped like one tenth for what it used to be. And Apple was in the middle of this all. G5 was supercomputer for all. Just like they advertised it. MP was even better.

In broader picture, I think, this goes in line with economical evolvement in general.
Segregation of wealth is in the air.
In most most visual content making centers around the globe, even the prices of work room have risen so high that the market has split a great deal.
Those who break to the success, already spent so much money that the price for tools Apple is offering them, does not matter.
Apple has no intent to offer something "optimal" for those who don't break to success.

Also, Macs in general don't matter economically to Apple much. Apple does not have to offer anything "optimal" for small timers, since especially non AIO-dekstops are just for the show. They don't matter in revenues or profits of Apple. Jobs might have some ideological reasons for making "middle macs", but surely Cook does not. I'd guess that Cook just don't want Apple to waste any more resouces for developing mac models than it has to. They needed a flagship and they got it. Why offer something in between? (tautological) Also, Apple tries to keep the illusion alive, that iPad is all you need for "middle ground" creative work. They can't break this idealogy for offering a "pc" in post-pc era.

The question arised here and many more times is, that why do Apple focus on AIO?
I'd like to hear opinions about this.

One answer would be, that because that is (for the long time, in the past & future) the most selling model, they want to focus on that, just because they want to have as limited range of models as possible.

Second thing would be, that they get the components for imac for so low price, that it would be economically just bad business to do something else.

My gues still is, that the answer to this is support costs. With AIO with as less as possible, what user can change, the less they need expensive support for that mac.
With expandable mac Apple faces lots of problems with compatibility and drivers, their own and 3rd pary. This might also be one of the reasons why they break up witn nVidia. Lots of problems with drivers and pointing fingers who's fault is that. As much as they keep the driver developement within the company, for all that limited amount of drivers they need to produce, there's less of hassle, hence less the costs.
Anecdote: I bought hp's eGPU for mini2012. Turns out that it works only with TB3, nevermind what egpu.io says. Nobody takes responsible about the compatability, even TB should be a "standard". Same thing with LG's 5k2k (tb3) display & mini2018. Doesn't work, but nobody is responsible.
As long as mac's market share is in one digit and and expendable desktop mac's market share is fraction of a per mil, there won't be economical interest to get any pcie-card working in any mac.

Just as a side note, it's pretty tragicomic to see people selling their few years old soldered imacs in FB and other markets, with prices that used to be normal, when macs were upgradeable. People just don't understand why they macs are not so interesting any more. Most macs might have solid hardware that can last a decade (not counting MBP, which has all battery, gpu, display & keyboard problems imaginable for last 3-5 years), but I can't advice anybody that ask me, to buy a mac with 8GB soldered ram for longer use in the future.
 
Of course its much too expensive, stop kidding. Its more than twice the starting price compared to the cMP or trashcan.
So, yes, it is that simple. Just in the opposite direction you insinuated.

Not sure what you try to say in the last paragraph - both Linux and Windows run CUDA. I don't get how this is related to the MP.
Anyway, I agree, would be nice to see CUDA drivers in Catalina. Not too much hope there, though
Like I said, I’m talking about business/corporate users and pros who use the Mac Pro to generate revenue.

The 2019 Mac Pro is $6,000 for the 8-core/32GB RAM/256GB SSD config. 8 slots, 1.5 TB max RAM. In 2013, the 8-core/32GB RAM/256GB SSD Mac Pro was $5,900. No slots. 256GB max RAM. (That same config is currently $4,200.)

Yes, the cheapest base machine for the 2019 MP is $6,000, for an 8-core/32GB/256GB SSD config. But even if you compare that to the lowest-end Mac Pro available right now—6-core/16GB/256GB SSD, for $3,000—the 2019 is a much more capable machine. Even though it’s “twice the starting price”.

Though the configs aren’t equivalent, I’m happy to compare the current $3,000 base MP to the base 2019, which is $6,000. OK, so it’s an extra $3,000. But please tell me how the small difference of $40/month (less than $30/month after tax, in the US) can possibly make the new Mac Pro unaffordable for ANY pro? If that’s really going to break you, you’re doing something wrong. Time to change your business model or close it down. It’s not up to Apple to subsidize your failing business.
 
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If that’s really going to break you, you’re doing something wrong. Time to change your business model or close it down.
Sorry, but that does not make sense. By the same argument you could ask for Ferraris for business, because if you can‘t afford it your business model is wrong. What about golden pens? If you can‘t afford it, ....

Running a business means making reasonable decisions. Burning 3000 bucks for overpriced stuff or way too powerful machinery is not exactly reasonable.
 
Yes the mini is fine for its intended market, but it’s no powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination. The 2019 Mac Pro will be welcomed by pros who were left without a viable option when Apple released the 2013 cylinder. Might very well be too expensive for those who don’t use their Mac to generate revenue, however.
Might be?
 
Sorry, but that does not make sense. By the same argument you could ask for Ferraris for business, because if you can‘t afford it your business model is wrong. What about golden pens? If you can‘t afford it, ....

Running a business means making reasonable decisions. Burning 3000 bucks for overpriced stuff or way too powerful machinery is not exactly reasonable.
Ferraris and golden pens? Ok, if you could get those for $40/month your post would make sense. But since you can’t, your comparison is ridiculous.

Before replying, you edited my post to remove the part that’s most relevant to this “unaffordability” discussion. How about responding to it instead?

Though the configs aren’t equivalent, I’m happy to compare the current $3,000 base MP to the base 2019, which is $6,000. OK, so it’s an extra $3,000. But please tell me how the small difference of $40/month (less than $30/month after tax, in the US) can possibly make the new Mac Pro unaffordable for ANY pro?

I’d love to hear a logical response, because I’m getting really tired of non-pros claiming the Mac Pro is too expensive for pros. Would you like to try again?
 
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But please tell me how the small difference of $40/month (less than $30/month after tax, in the US) can possibly make the new Mac Pro unaffordable for ANY pro? If that’s really going to break you, you’re doing something wrong. Time to change your business model or close it down. It’s not up to Apple to subsidize your failing business.
You calculatd that you don’t need to put any money to that new MP for the next 75 months?

That sum grows quickly, if you need something else than a base model without additional hardware.

I guess there are lot of potential MP users that are not sure for the next 75 months or their income is only partially involved on a single mac.

Why is every other computer company offering (expandable desktop) models priced between $2-6k?
They are forced to do that or are just stupid?
 
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I’d love to hear a logical response, because I’m getting really tired of non-pros claiming the Mac Pro is too expensive for pros. Would you like to try again?
Logic isn't your thing is it? Again: why not just make it 12 000 instead of 6000? Just a few dollars per month, so if you can't afford it...., or even better, make it 20 000, its just a few dollars per month

Btw: By your very assessment I'm not a pro because I cannot afford the MP? You may try to insult me all day long, you are still illogical. Your bragging about "pros" and non-pros is revealing btw. You know nothing about that, evidentially
 
Logic isn't your thing is it? Again: why not just make it 12 000 instead of 6000? Just a few dollars per month, so if you can't afford it...., or even better, make it 20 000, its just a few dollars per month

Btw: By your very assessment I'm not a pro because I cannot afford the MP? You may try to insult me all day long, you are still illogical. Your bragging about "pros" and non-pros is revealing btw. You know nothing about that, evidentially
Why not make it $120 million by your “logic”. But it’s not $120 million—which would be unaffordable. We’re discussing whether an extra $30-40 a month is affordable. Spoiler: it is. (And I never said you couldn’t afford a Mac Pro, insulted you or bragged about anything.)

As I’ve said, any pro who could afford the 2013 Mac Pro can afford the 2019. The base config of the 2019 was priced at $5,900 in 2013, and it’s currently at $4,200. The new model, yes, is $6,000. However, it’s a much better value than the 2013, due in no small part to its expandability.

I have no idea if you’re a pro or not, or whether you would ever need/buy a Mac Pro or not. But you’re never going to convince me that a pro who’s generating revenue with a Mac Pro can’t afford to pay a little bit more for a much better machine.

The argument that the 2019 Mac Pro is too powerful or too expandable doesn’t make much sense from the perspective of a working pro. I for one have never heard a pro complain that their computer was too fast.

If you want to continue to try to tell me that a pro can’t afford the 2019 Mac Pro, let’s get specific. What is this pro’s hourly rate? How much is the average job? On average how many jobs per month? Or, what are the monthly (or yearly) revenue and expense numbers?
 
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Why is every other computer company offering (expandable desktop) models priced between $2-6k?
They are forced to do that or are just stupid?
A little bit of everything.

These other companies did not spend 2 years redesigning the form factor of the Mac Pro from scratch, and they don't have to support the software for the next decade either. So Apple has higher fixed costs (from the R&D) that they intend to recoup from higher upfront costs (since the Mac Pro is expected to be a low volume product). One way or another.

So in a sense, you are not just paying for specs, but also "niceness", whether you appreciate it or not.

Second, Apple is the only company who can (legally) offer macOS, so they are a little more insulated against competition compared to other windows PC companies where their only differentiating factor is price. There are people who want a Mac and want it enough to be willing to pay whatever asking price Apple charges (up to a certain point naturally), so Apple doesn't need to engage in a mad rush to the bottom in this regard.

I will personally pay a little more for something I really want, than pay less for something which I know won't work as well for me, but that's just me. Everyone's mileage is going to vary in this regard.
 
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Tired of people putting down the price issue. The problem isn't the base price. The problem is what you get for the base price. 256GB SSD, Middling 2 year old graphics, 32 GB ram.

Should be 1 TB ssd, Single vega, 64gb ram.
[doublepost=1562106020][/doublepost]"Yes, the cheapest base machine for the 2019 MP is $6,000, for an 8-core/32GB/256GB SSD config. But even if you compare that to the lowest-end Mac Pro available right now—6-core/16GB/256GB SSD, for $3,000—the 2019 is a much more capable machine. Even though it’s “twice the starting price”."

The point you miss is that spending the same amount on a 2013 mac pro yields a better performing machine.
 
Tired of people putting down the price issue. The problem isn't the base price. The problem is what you get for the base price. 256GB SSD, Middling 2 year old graphics, 32 GB ram.

Should be 1 TB ssd, Single vega, 64gb ram.
Your comment just, to me, proves that yes the problem IS the base price based on what you get.
 
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