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I appreciate the hardware/infrastructure argument but wasn't that already largely in place? Isn't the same hardware/infrastructure hosting and delivering the entire iTunes library, iCloud, etc already in place? Wasn't the same IT personnel managing all that hardware and software already in place running servers for iTunes, iCloud and so on. Could anyone point me to any reference anywhere on the Internet that conclusively shows that Apple had to make a HUGE investment in new servers and infrastructure and personnel to be able to support this new Apple Music service? Last I heard (which may not be true), Apple laid off a bunch of the Beats staff as redundant because they already had people with duplicate skillsets in place: http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-is-starting-to-lay-off-beats-employees-2014-7

As you say, "Heck all these songs are on iTunes", so it seems that Apple doesn't have to buy a bunch of new server farms and spend a bundle on new infrastructure beyond what is probably mostly already in place.

Relative to worrying about Apple's electric bill, isn't Apple very, VERY green when it comes to electricity usage? Have we not seen multiple stories about how Apple's server farms are running mostly (entirely?) on green sources such as solar? http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/05...rth-carolina-data-center-on-renewable-energy/

And even if such a cite exists that shows this massive burden of new costs Apple is having to endure to pay for the backbone of Apple Music, Apple will write the whole cost off, reducing their tax liability on the profits they make from everything else they sell... just as they'll write the free trial costs off as promotional expense. The savings in not making those expenses- if of any real, tangible size- would be inconsequential to Apple's total revenues & profits for the year.

I never said the 28% was pure profit- just that it's probably the biggest slice of the whole pie. I can't prove that but it seems like a good guess for anyone who thinks it through. How many major labels are there? Isn't that 4 or 5? IMO, it seems reasonable to assume that those 4 or 5 would take most of the 72%. 72% / 4 = 18%. Maybe one of them is bigger than the other 3 or 4, so maybe one of them MIGHT get up to Apple's 28%. Maybe?

My point is richest (Apple), rich (labels & publishers) and poor (artists not named Swift, Perry, Bieber and a relatively small group of others who really could give their music away for 3 months and be fine) was to the point of Apple taking on all of the risk (for Apple's new service) implying that the artists should share in those risks as if each party is equal partners in this endeavor. They are not. If it is successful, Apple will make FAR more than any of the other players, the labels & publishers will take smaller slices out of the 72% and these "greedy" artists will get the scraps... for years and years to come.

In entrepreneurship, there is a saying: "to he who takes the bulk of the risk, goes the bulk of the rewards." As this is now unfolding, that's exactly what is happening here. If we actually expected the artists to fully share in the risks, where's their 28% cut right off the top?

I can almost guarantee you, Apple will barely break even with that 28% cut. While they might have already had the infrastructure to support Apple Music, they still need to spend money on the R&D for how it will all work with what they have, and to have engineers(not cheap) to continually monitor that everything is running well. They also have to fund future development and future negotiations and ideas in order to keep Apple Music interesting.

Oh and have we forgotten about the worldwide advertising campaign for it? That is not small change, even for a company as big as Apple. Again apple will make almost nothing out of the 28%.

Apple Music, like their iTunes, App store and all their other Software & services is there only as value added for the iPhone and MacBooks. They don't care about making pennies on these services, they Need them in order to sell more iPhones and MacBooks because at the end of the day that is where they make their money.

The first 3 months of Apple Music, will likely cost them close to 3 billion if they meet their expectations not to mention the fair amount of investment that is already likely a part of it.

It is hard to draw the line of what is who's responsibility in something like this. Sure the big giant corporation is easy to blame because they have the money but that big giant corporation is providing a service that benefits the artist just as much as it does them. If at the end of the day Apple decides that it was not successful and they can't afford to uphold the service, who loses out the most? To apple that is just another failed investment, that they can likely recover from, learn form and think of another great service they can offer as value added for their iPhone.

For the Artist, they lose out on what could be an Amazing way to get their music out. Without a doubt Apples massive budget and market share could make a pretty good dent again in the music industry. If Apple can continue to keep the music industry alive with this service, it is just as much in the Artist interest to see it flourish than to be upset about losing 3 months of pay from Apple.
 
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I agree wholeheartedly.

However, why doesn't Taylor Swift, for example, take a stand against the labels for demanding unfair deals with new artists? Why did she focus on Apple? (I believe because she's in it for herself, but what do I know).
Because she knows that Apple is easier to bully than the labels.

Who knows - maybe the labels put her up to it. This way, the artistes still get paid, and they don't have to fork out a cent.
 
Probably the real purpose of Beats One is to create the new Apple-controlled/label dis-intermediated Taylor Swifts.
 
Don't say, that Apple don't respond to public opinion.
Well, if my butt was worth multiple millions of dollars and my tweets would make the rounds like TW's then I'm sure I wouldn't be so pessimistic about the things I report to Apple through Bug Reporter.

Also, maybe if people like her had to use their hardware for an extended period of time, one that is of course outrageous to expect (beyond warranty coverage) I'm pretty sure we'd see some changes in that, too.
Or maybe not, people get used to being nickel and dimed in "low-scale" (it stacks though! which is why companies do it)

Oh there are plenty more examples I bet where you could show that public opinion often doesn't get it and hence doesn't call for action, many just "go with it" and then there are some cases where some unhappy Macbook owners pray and despair in need of getting their laptops fixed for a design fault. (as so often, AMD is involved)
But hey, you're right, in this case they did actually care, but I think it was the good old "running the numbers" that did the trick.

Potential loss of customer trust/celebrity endorsement/reputation vs. paying some dollars per user that hopefully sticks to the service anyways beyond the free trial (and guess where the money comes from: hint: it's not Tim's or Apple's pocket. On the surface, yes, but as soon as the service gets currency adaptions or sees a lack thereof, you'll know who's helping out with the extra cents)
 
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will barely break even with that 28% cut. While they might have already had the infrastructure to support Apple Music, they still need to spend money on the R&D for how it will all work with what they have, and to have engineers(not cheap) to continually monitor that everything is running well. They also have to fund future development and future negotiations and ideas in order to keep Apple Music interesting.

Oh and have we forgotten about the worldwide advertising campaign for it? That is not small change, even for a company as big as Apple. Again apple will make almost nothing out of the 28%.

Here's the math: suppose Apple gets 25 Million users to sign up as a paid subscriber at the end of the trial. I'm assuming only about 5 or so more million than Spotify which is probably an underestimation since Apple is going to embed this as default right into iOS 9: http://bgr.com/2015/06/10/spotify-paid-subscribers-20-million/ Pick your own number and redo this math if you feel like Apple can't woo more paying subscribers than Spotify with this free trial and embedding it in iOS. Apple has spun a goal of 100 Million which I assume is for the free trial.

25 million paying subscribers times about $2.80 per month times 12 months = $840 Million dollars per year. Can you really believe that $840 Million won't be able to cover the startup R&D, pay some "not cheap" engineers and a worldwide adversiting campaign? Let's allocate $400 Million to advertising and let's allocate $100 Million to R&D (because they are not having to build all of this from scratch). Of the $340 Million left, let's hire a good number of "not cheap" engineers at- say- $250K per year. How many can we afford to hire? 1,360 "not cheap" engineers. I just don't see it taking that many. How many do you think they'll need solely dedicated- and thus billed to- Apple Music (and nothing else)?

Or do we need to spend more for advertising this one service, which I've already budgeted at about 40% of ALL Apple advertising spent to advertise EVERYTHING that Apple makes: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/apples-ad-budget-hits-1-billion/ I've probably far overshot that number which, if true, could be reallocated to any of these other high costs being implied. Furthermore, I would guess $400 Million advertising free music might sell more than a $9.99 subscription but I won't factor in all of the extra sales of products like iPhones driven by that added marketing spend.

Or do we think it has cost more than $100 Million in startup R&D for this service, solely dedicated to only this service and not iTunes/iCloud/etc in general?

Step forward in time. Eventually, all of that startup R&D is fully recouped whatever that number is. They don't have to keep pouring startup R&D sunk costs into this every year. Eventually it is fully researched & developed. Eventually, the big splash of a worldwide marketing campaign has done it's job so they don't have to keep running advertising for this product at that level EVERY year. So only those Engineer costs and some "future development" recurs into subsequent years.

So, let's see year 2 with the $100Million in R&D back in the usable pot and maybe $300 Million of the $400 Million I arbitrarily chose for marketing launch budget back in the new revenue pot too. Unless I have a much larger army of "not cheap" engineers and/or future development that is not engineer costs is spiking up beyond anything I can imagine, it's hard to see where all that money would go to prove your guarantee true. It seems eventually Apple will make a lot of profit from this even if we aggressively spend a lot of this money in the first year.

Unfortunately, I- like you- have to speculate those numbers as I don't have actuals. It could be that some of them are higher or lower than my guesses. BUT, even more key: knowing Apple and how much Apple loves it's relatively fat profit margins, why are they bothering with this business if it is guaranteed to deliver no profit at all?

Seems like if Apple wanted to spend $400 Million on marketing and $100 Million on R&D and hire 1360 "not cheap" engineers, they'd put all that toward some other big innovation with real profit potential. Apple is not exactly known to be a money-wasting company.

But, but, but, what about the free trial cost? I appears you've budgeted that at $3 Billion dollars but Apple has already said that the artists will get paid and the deals already in place (presumably with the labels) will remain as is. If that interpretation is true, the vast majority of the money that would flow through in the 72% won't during the trial. Why? Because the labels are very likely taking most of that 72%. So, only the scraps that flows through the labels to the artists is what's at stake in the free trial reversal and I suspect that will prove to be scraps to Apple.

There's no blaming the big giant corporation here. Apple hasn't done anything particularly wrong. However, they do stand to make the most revenues of all individual players in this whole deal. I doubt any one label will get a 28% cut right off the the top as it looks like their cuts is likely to be less than Apple's cut at most. Will any label even get 28% of the 72%? Tens of thousands of artists will only get a cut of those label's cuts (or scraps).

So the entity with the most to gain is taking on the bulk of the cost. That makes sense to me. The artists at the other end of the equation are going to get paid some tiny scraps without having to take on this startup period risk. The labels are going to get nothing during the trial as that's what they've already agreed to with Apple... and nobody is arguing for Apple to throw them a bone.

Unlike you, I think Apple will make a LOT of money from this business. It's unlikely to be billions of dollars but it does look like they can make hundreds of millions each year for many years to come. If there is not much of a market to pay for streaming music, Apple could take a hit here. But to he who takes the bulk of the risks, gets the bulk of the rewards... or losses, when they try something and it doesn't work.
 
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Am I the only person who is glad that Apple reversed course, but hopes that Swift's album still doesn't appear on Apple Music?
I wouldn't say that I'm hoping that Taylor Swift's album doesn't appear on Apple Music but I will say this, Apple does need to add any more trash to their current music collection .
 
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Here's the math: suppose Apple get 25 Million users to sign up as a paid subscriber at the end of the trial. I'm assuming only about 5 or so more million than Spotify which is probably an underestimation since Apple is going to embed this as default right into iOS 9: http://bgr.com/2015/06/10/spotify-paid-subscribers-20-million/ Pick your own number and redo this math if you feel like Apple can't woo more paying subscribers than Spotify with this free trial and embedding it in iOS.

25 million paying subscribers times about $2.80 per month times 12 months = $840 Million dollars per year. Can you really believe that $840 Million won't be able to cover the startup R&D, pay some "not cheap" engineers and a worldwide adversiting campaign? Let's allocate $400 Million to advertising and let's allocate $100 Million to R&D. Of the $340 Million left, let's hire a good number of "not cheap" engineers at- say- $250K per year. How many can we afford to hire? 1,360 "not cheap" engineers. I just don't see it taking that many. How many do you think they'll need solely dedicated- and thus billed to- Apple Music (and nothing else)?

Or do we need to spend more for advertising this one service, which I've already budgeted at about 40% of ALL Apple advertising spent to advertise EVERYTHING that Apple makes: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/apples-ad-budget-hits-1-billion/ I've probably far overshot that number which, if true, could be reallocated to any of these other high costs being implied.

Or do we think it cost more than $100 Million in startup R&D for this service?

Step forward in time. Eventually, all of that startup R&D is fully recouped whatever that number is. They don't have to keep pouring startup R&D sunk costs into this every year. Eventually it is fully researched & developed. Eventually, the big splash of a worldwide marketing campaign has done it's job so they don't have to keep running advertising for this product at that level EVERY year. So only those Engineer costs and maybe "future development" recurs into subsequent years.

So, let's see year 2 with the $100Million in R&D back in the usable pot and maybe $300 Million of the $400 Million I arbitrarily chose for marketing launch budget back in the new revenue pot too. Unless I have a much larger army of "not cheap" engineers and/or future development that is not engineer costs is spiking up beyond anything I can imagine, it's hard to see where all that money would go to prove your guarantee true. It seems eventually Apple will make a lot of profit from this even if we aggressively spend a lot of this money in the first year.

And knowing Apple and how much Apple loves it's relatively fat profit margins, why are they bothering with this business if there is guaranteed to be no profit in it?

But, but, but, what about the free trial cost? I appears you've budgeted that at $3 Billion dollars but Apple has already said that they artists will get paid and the deals already in place (presumably with the labels) will remain as is. If that interpretation is true, the vast majority of the money that would flow through in the 72% won't during the trial. Why? Because the labels are very likely taking most of that 72%. So, only the scraps that flows through the labels to the artists is what's at stake in the free trial reversal and I suspect that will prove to be scraps to Apple.

There's no blaming the big giant corporation here. Apple hasn't done anything particularly wrong. However, they do stand to make the most revenues of all individual players in this whole deal. I doubt any label will get a 28% cut right off the the top as it looks like their cuts is likely to be less than Apple's cut at most. Tens of thousands of artists will only get a cut of those cuts (or scraps).

So the entity with the most to gain is taking on the bulk of the cost. That makes sense to me. The artists at the other end of the equation are going to get paid some tiny scraps without having to take on this startup period risk. The labels are going to get nothing during the trial as that's what they've already agreed to with Apple... and nobody is arguing for Apple to throw them a bone.

Unlike you, I think Apple will make a LOT of money from this business. It's unlikely to be billions of dollars but it does look like they can make hundreds of millions each year for many years to come. If there is not much of a market to pay for streaming music, Apple could take a hit here. But to he who takes the bulk of the risks, gets the bulk of the rewards... or losses when they try something and it doesn't work.
Damn dude. No offense but TL;DR. Keep your info short and sweet. There's over 900 posts. I don't think many people are going to read everything you expressed on your mind. :D
 
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Care to explain?

It's entirely possible she kept controlling rights to her music, but it's more likely that the record label company owns her and made the decision. She may have had input, but I'm not certain she had the final say.
Actually, according to the NY Times, TS "holds an unusual amount of control over her music: Big Machine is independent, and her family owns part of the company." She has a great deal of power and has shown leadership on this, unlike many other artists. “It’s fortunate for Taylor that she has the kind of deal where she has that control,” said Irving Azoff, a longtime artist manager. “I have a slew of artists that would love to have done it, but their label deals wouldn’t allow it.”
 
Actually, according to the NY Times, TS "holds an unusual amount of control over her music: Big Machine is independent, and her family owns part of the company." She has a great deal of power and has shown leadership on this, unlike many other artists. “It’s fortunate for Taylor that she has the kind of deal where she has that control,” said Irving Azoff, a longtime artist manager. “I have a slew of artists that would love to have done it, but their label deals wouldn’t allow it.”

That's interesting. I didn't know that.
 
For one, we tend to be hypocrites on MR, and after debating this topic, with many people supporting apple for not paying the artists, are now hailing apple as an awesome company for changing thier mind.

It's just tough on the "fans" to have to swap debating teams like this sometimes :)

Well, the thing I understand in discussions about Apple is that before you know it you're being described as a fanboy. One that's not able to even critisize a given company. All that, plus more, just because you don"t agree with a given opinion.

This kind of personal labeling people instead of propper arguments is often food for psychologist.
 
What you are claiming is nonsensical. There are multitudes of ways how Apple could have announced Apple Music with the same amount of exposure as creating an artificial scandal. No one here is realizing that this is quite bad press for Apple. There is not a trained marketing professional on this planet that would think this up.
Lol then you don't know much about marketing. It is a huge amount of good press for Apple Music a week before launch. On top of that Taylor Swift and Apple both share in the halo effect of each other.

Perhaps it was not planned exactly like this but to view this as anything but a huge boon of free positive press for Apple Music a week before launch is to be in the dark.
 
I'm sure the indie artists will appreciate it, but the Taylor Swifts, and Metallicas of the music world, let's not pretend it's for them.
Even they don't pretend it's for them. Who's pretending? Taylor has said herself that this doesn't directly affect her.
Cant believe apple bowed down to a whiny singer.
I can guarantee you (even if you weren't aware of this yourself) that you would not have said this if she wasn't a woman.
 
Lol then you don't know much about marketing. It is a huge amount of good press for Apple Music a week before launch. On top of that Taylor Swift and Apple both share in the halo effect of each other.

Perhaps it was not planned exactly like this but to view this as anything but a huge boon of free positive press for Apple Music a week before launch is to be in the dark.

I see your point on the halo effect, but don't agree with the rest.

What needs to be separated are the consumer and the business view. In terms of the former I agree with you that this is good press. Much exposure and no real effect on the consumer. In these terms bad press is also exposure.

However in terms of the business view, this can be seen as a weakening of Apple's bargaining or negotiation position. It basically means that Apple can be forced to move if enough pressure is put on the organisation from outside. Even if this is planned and Apple is not weakened at all, it is bad. Because organisations and people will increase their attempts and Apple needs to divert resources to managing this. That is the reason why I think Apple would not willingly do this. Most news outlets here in Europe featured this as "Apple forced to back down by Swift on streaming terms". Not really positive in my view.

I still think there are several very powerful way to launch Apple Music that do not have any negative side-effects for the company. Examples are: a tour of different artists to first wave launching countries with free global streaming; a keynote with indies and Swift present endorsing this as the "only streaming platform that is good for artists" (think Tidal but then not a 1%-er awkward event), etc. I do not see it as very realistic that the most effective way to market this is to stage a diversion like this. It might be effective, but there are better ways.
 
I wonder if this was all a ruse from the beginning.

Start with no payout
Taylor comes on board and complains
Apple looks good
Taylor looks good
Apple Radio gets HUGE free publicity
Taylor gets HUGE free publicity
Apple ends up paying only a little anyway and nothing close to what other services are paying out during trial

Hmmmm
 
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will barely break even with that 28% cut. While they might have already had the infrastructure to support Apple Music, they still need to spend money on the R&D for how it will all work with what they have, and to have engineers(not cheap) to continually monitor that everything is running well. They also have to fund future development and future negotiations and ideas in order to keep Apple Music interesting.

Oh and have we forgotten about the worldwide advertising campaign for it? That is not small change, even for a company as big as Apple. Again apple will make almost nothing out of the 28%.

Apple Music, like their iTunes, App store and all their other Software & services is there only as value added for the iPhone and MacBooks. They don't care about making pennies on these services, they Need them in order to sell more iPhones and MacBooks because at the end of the day that is where they make their money.

The first 3 months of Apple Music, will likely cost them close to 3 billion if they meet their expectations not to mention the fair amount of investment that is already likely a part of it.

It is hard to draw the line of what is who's responsibility in something like this. Sure the big giant corporation is easy to blame because they have the money but that big giant corporation is providing a service that benefits the artist just as much as it does them. If at the end of the day Apple decides that it was not successful and they can't afford to uphold the service, who loses out the most? To apple that is just another failed investment, that they can likely recover from, learn form and think of another great service they can offer as value added for their iPhone.

For the Artist, they lose out on what could be an Amazing way to get their music out. Without a doubt Apples massive budget and market share could make a pretty good dent again in the music industry. If Apple can continue to keep the music industry alive with this service, it is just as much in the Artist interest to see it flourish than to be upset about losing 3 months of pay from Apple.


For Apple, breaking even in music/contents is not that important. Its important that Apple music drives sales of iOS and Macs and also spearheads adoption of iOS and OS X. Apple Music's profit is not a goal, Apple music is a device. Think of Apple Music as another windows of iTunes store, just for streaming.
 
Spotify now really looks bad :)
And all artists WILL move to Apple at least for 3 month exclusives.
Brilliant.
 
Umm, no. What you're saying is Company A should be able to use Company B's work without compensating them because some people will drop out. That's not the artists fault. The artists work was used during the free trial so they should be compensated. You don't rent a car and say well I'm not going to buy it so I'm not paying for my use of it.

Are you familiar with the concept of a free trial? It means that if 1,000,000 people sign up for a free trial, maybe 50,000 will continue to pay for it while the other 950,000 opt out. That means there are only 50,000 paying customers to spread profit to the music industry after the trial is over. But in this case, Apple has to pay for 1,000,000 people during the trial. It isn't really fair.

So all these artists will get payment as if Apple Music had 1,000,000 listeners for the first 3 months costing Apple a ton of money, when in reality they should only be getting 50,000 listeners worth of profit.

I don't subscribe to cable channels like Cinemax. There are like 300 million households with TV but the biggest cable channel, HBO only has like 15 million subscribers. But if HBO offered a free trial, you'd probably have 100 million people signed up. So Apple would be paying the equivalent of 100 million subscribers to the cable companies when they only deserve 15 million worth of profits.
 
Except that what you're saying isn't true. We have the data. Streaming customers aren't buying music. There's been a huge acceleration in the decline of sales with the rise of streaming. Only 1 album has sold over a million copies this year: Taylor Swift and that album came out last year. Her album is not available to stream.

You are missing my point. Of course people are streaming more, but also a large part of streaming consumers buy albums after streaming them for a while, for a variety of reasons. Most of these people listen to Spotify or another platform and buy on iTunes or Google Play. Apple music will be tightly integrated with iTunes, making it easier to buy music and therefore to drive sales. Consumers are more likely to buy when the buy button is next to the song that they are streaming (apple music) than when they need to switch apps first (the others).
 
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