Apple Says Meta is Making Unreasonable Interoperability Requests Under Europe's DMA Requirements

[Mainyehc]

I guess Apple could geofence this request and give Facebook unfettered access to user data only to users residing in the EU. I am sure that pro-EU crowd should have no issues with surrendering their data in the name of “fair and open competition”.

I know you’re joking, but they’re already doing that, except in the opposite direction; that’s why we didn’t get iPhone mirroring here in the EU, i.e. so that Meta wouldn’t get their grubby hands on all that data. I was mad, and still am, but at least now I get Apple’s stance. If the EU caves, and grants Apple exemptions on privacy protection grounds, maybe we will indeed get that feature here.

 

[Mainyehc]

I agree. There are some good arguments Apple could make here, but the ones in this response aren’t it. Apple is essentially saying, “We don’t want to let users give Meta access to sensitive information that only Apple has previously had access to.” That’s not a safety argument. It’s just a corporate preference.

Apple doesn’t offer any social network and is able to sustain itself on hardware sales and content/service subscriptions, something that can’t be said for Meta. Come to think of it, companies should have to prove business model stability and viability sans user data monetization before even being allowed access to said data by the EU. It would kill off a lot of companies, for sure, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world, and at least it would be coherent with the customer and personal data protection laws and principles that the EU supposedly upholds.

 

[Abazigal]

I know you’re joking, but they’re already doing that, except in the opposite direction; that’s why we didn’t get iPhone mirroring here in the EU, i.e. so that Meta wouldn’t get their grubby hands on all that data. I was mad, and still am, but at least now I get Apple’s stance. If the EU caves, and grants Apple exemptions on privacy protection grounds, maybe we will indeed get that feature here.

Depends on the nature of the requests. I suspect it has to do with allowing Meta’s communication apps (WhatsApp, messenger) to access your SMS and call history as part of letting the user set them as default calling / messaging apps on iOS.

In a sense, neither party are angels. Meta is probably right in that Apple is denying third parties on the basis of security and privacy, but on the other hand, this is Meta we are talking about. Do you really want to give them unfettered access to iOS?

 

[9081094]

America innovates, China imitates, Europe regulates.

You’ve got the order wrong based on assumptions of the past:

China imitates and innovates, America and Europe are stagnant.

Europes DMA is leveling the playing field for everybody the same. The only reason Apple is arguing against it has nothing to do with privacy. It has to do with opening up their walled garden and letting in the competition.

This is a nightmare for Timmy because there are so many products that once it can work with/integrate with other Apple hardware, it will destroy or force Apple to lower their prices.

This is Timmy’s biggest nightmare and he is spreading fear of privacy being at risk.

The same as Apple proudly announcing how green their products are while in the meantime soldering and glueing everything together so it’s almost impossible to upgrade later and you have to buy a new one instead.

It’s all about the money!

 

[9081094]

Well considering most the EU uses WhatsApp, clearly they are not sane when it comes to privacy issues.

Whatsapp was bought by meta years ago and is using the same technology as signal at the core.

Apple’s messaging platform isn’t capable of communicating crossplatform and while 90% of the Europeans use Android, iPhone users were forced to use another messaging app that is cross platform.

iPhone users made the request to Apple many to Apple many times for making it compatible.

Apple neglected this request for too long and people chose WhatsApp instead. And now Apple is finally opening up their messaging platform to make it interoperable. Too late for that now.

WhatsApp is encrypted and offers the same level of privacy as iMessage. It’s on the user’s part of sharing your privacy or not. Same for android and iOS.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple doesn’t offer any social network and is able to sustain itself on hardware sales and content/service subscriptions, something that can’t be said for Meta

They do offer wearable headsets that compete with Meta’s hardware.

Depends on the nature of the requests. I suspect it has to do with allowing Meta’s communication apps (WhatsApp, messenger) to access your SMS and call history as part of letting the user set them as default calling / messaging apps on iOS.

Just read Apple’s white paper (which I already linked to on the previous page).

WhatsApp and Messenger don’t use AirPlay. Nor Bluetooth devices, Wi-Fi networks or iPhone mirroring. Nor continuity camera, really. And they can do notifications just fine today.

Yet Apple specifically mention Meta’s hardware devices (smart glasses and the Quest).

👉 This very much seems about Meta providing integration between their headsets and iOS.

And Apple trying to maintain their exclusive access for the Vision Pro.

 

[Ctrlos]

Whatsapp was bought by meta years ago and is using the same technology as signal at the core.

Apple’s messaging platform isn’t capable of communicating crossplatform and while 90% of the Europeans use Android, iPhone users were forced to use another messaging app that is cross platform.

iPhone users made the request to Apple many to Apple many times for making it compatible.

Apple neglected this request for too long and people chose WhatsApp instead. And now Apple is finally opening up their messaging platform to make it interoperable. Too late for that now.

WhatsApp is encrypted and offers the same level of privacy as iMessage. It’s on the user’s part of sharing your privacy or not. Same for android and iOS.

Perhaps the best thing for interoperability is for Apple to buy WhatsApp and integrate it into iMessage themselves!

 

[AppliedMicro]

Perhaps the best thing for interoperability is for Apple to buy WhatsApp and integrate it into iMessage themselves!

They can make an interoperability request to Meta according to the DMA.

https://engineering.fb.com/2024/03/06/security/whatsapp-messenger-messaging-interoperability-eu/
https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/dma-notice-non-users

 

[9081094]

They do offer wearable headsets that compete with Meta’s hardware.

Just read Apple’s white paper (which I already linked to on the previous page).

WhatsApp and Messenger don’t use AirPlay. Nor Bluetooth devices, Wi-Fi. networks iPhone mirroring or continuity camera really. And they can do notifications just fine today.

Yet Apple specifically mention Meta’s hardware devices (smart glasses and the Quest).

👉 This very much seems about Meta providing integration between their headsets and iOS.

And Apple trying to maintain their exclusive access for the Vision Pro.

Apple is feeling the pressure of innovation from competitors and is using “privacy risk” as an excuse to not lose money.

At the same time it’s scrambling to keep up with competitors. Using Google as their default search engine for 20 billion a year from Google. Uses Google glass for photos, ChatGPT and so on.

How low can Timmy go.

 

[spazzcat]

They should do it now, but they won't. Blinders and heads firmly in the sand.

It isn't that black and white. Meta is the main source of social media and if own business or work for a nonprofit you would be dead if you are not using Meta systems.

 

[SpotOnT]

Whatsapp was bought by meta years ago and is using the same technology as signal at the core.

Apple’s messaging platform isn’t capable of communicating crossplatform and while 90% of the Europeans use Android, iPhone users were forced to use another messaging app that is cross platform.

iPhone users made the request to Apple many to Apple many times for making it compatible.

Apple neglected this request for too long and people chose WhatsApp instead. And now Apple is finally opening up their messaging platform to make it interoperable. Too late for that now.

WhatsApp is encrypted and offers the same level of privacy as iMessage. It’s on the user’s part of sharing your privacy or not. Same for android and iOS.

Metadata is not encrypted under Facebook’s ownership of WhatsApp. Facebook records who you contact, how often you contact them, when you contact them, etc. It’s in the terms of service.

Almost every user of WhatsApp I know switch to Signal when Facebook purchased WhatsApp. That’s what I use personally. I mean, if you’re gonna use a third-party service, it’s nuts to use something owned by Facebook rather than Signal itself.

Apple shot themselves in the foot by not allowing iMessage on Android. I have absolutely no interest in using iMessage anymore.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple shot themselves in the foot by not allowing iMessage on Android. I have absolutely no interest in using iMessage anymore.

Not sure about shooting themselves in the foot. But they clearly prioritised locking in customers into iPhones/iOS over privacy or consumer benefit.

Especially in the U.S. though, iMessage just isn’t very relevant in Europe.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple developed USB-C and was moving to USB-C from the first 12" MacBook. So no, it's still for 100000000% not because of the EU.

Before the EU deadline they added USB-C to:
1. Every Mac
2. Every iPad
3. Every charger
4. Every headphone
5. Every Apple TV
and 6.Every iPhone.

The directive was signed in 2022.

The directive mandates the use of USB-C as a universal charger using a standard USB-C to USB-C cable for smartphones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld video game consoles, portable speakers, e-readers, keyboards, mice, portable navigation systems, and earbuds that use wired charging by the end of 28 December 28 2024, and laptops by 28 April 2026.

Released 2~ months before deadline ​

Magic Mouse (October 28 2024)​

Magic Keyboard (October 28 2024)
Magic Trackpad (October 28 2024)

Released 3~ months before deadline ​

AirPods Max (september 20 2024)
AirPods (september 20 2024)
AirPods Pro (september 20 2024)

Released 16~ months before deadline​

iPhone 15 (september 20 2023)

Released 26-73~ months before deadline​

iPad 10th gen (October 20 2022) 26~ months before deadline
iPad mini 6th gen (september 24 2021) 38~ months before deadline
iPad Pro 3rd gen (November 7 2018) 73~ months before deadline

Released 98~ months before deadline 2026​

MacBook Air (October 30 2018)

Released 122~ months before deadline 2026​

MacBook Pro (October 27 2016)

Released 132~ months before deadline 2026​

MacBook (April 10 2015)

These don’t have any deadlines.
Apple TV
Siri remote
Apple Pencil

Apple is big yes, but some of those groceries stores are equally big.


But they are not free to limit access to their devices from external sources. Which extremely dangerous.
Only the AriPods Max and mac accessories were for the deadline, every other product was years before the deadline. So no.

Apple is big, but those grocery stores don’t prevent their customers to buy from other stores. No store can force you to only purchase from them to work with only their goods.

And what on earth do the ”extremely dangerous part?

Edit: added the They shall apply those measures from 28 December 2024. and from 28 April 2026for laptops.

 

[SpotOnT]

This to me is the strongest argument against Apple's walled garden approach: It doesn't work. I also feel like when it comes to audits, they are not impartial and they are not always acting in your best interest. Because some vendors will be allowed to make ******** that small companies would never be allowed to make on the apple app store.

I’m surprised you can say this with a straight face. I mean, just look at how much user data is collected from iOS versus Android. As far as I know the clipboard is still completely open on Android.

 

[SpotOnT]

Apple is big, but those grocery stores don’t prevent their customers to buy from other stores. No store can force you to only purchase from them to work with only their goods.

Grocery stores are the wrong analogy - no hardware is involved.

A better example would be the Post Office. Only the Post Office can use the mailbox…something that is physically installed on your private property…

If any third party carrier uses the mailbox…well that is a federal crime…

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Grocery stores are the wrong analogy - no hardware is involved.

A better example would be the Post Office. Only the Post Office can use the mailbox…something that is physically installed on your private property…

If any third party carrier uses the mailbox…well that is a federal crime…

That’s funny, here other carriers can use your mailbox.

 

[surferfb]

They do offer wearable headsets that compete with Meta’s hardware.

Just read Apple’s white paper (which I already linked to on the previous page).

WhatsApp and Messenger don’t use AirPlay. Nor Bluetooth devices, Wi-Fi networks or iPhone mirroring. Nor continuity camera, really. And they can do notifications just fine today.

Yet Apple specifically mention Meta’s hardware devices (smart glasses and the Quest).

👉 This very much seems about Meta providing integration between their headsets and iOS.

And Apple trying to maintain their exclusive access for the Vision Pro.

I suspect this has less than zero to do with the Vision Pro and everything to do with Apple being concerned about the privacy of its customers when dealing with a known bad actor who has repeatedly abused multiple Apple APIs to spy on Apple’s customers.

But when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. And you definitely have an “Apple is an evil anticompetitive enterprise that needs to be reigned in” hammer.

You really should do yourself a favor and start using the products of a company that more aligns with you values rather than making iOS worse for those of us who like what we have. You’ll be much happier in the long run.

 

[I7guy]

So is special access for the government in case of emergency.
But we’re no talking about emergencies here.

They have a monopoly on the sale of iOS applications and digital transactions to consumers on iOS.
Which is a dedicated market, cause iOS is a platform people but in to.

Consumers’ interests are protected, and competition is encouraged to serve it.

Sure. Stealing by regulation does that.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I suspect this has less than zero to do with the Vision Pro and everything to do with Apple being concerned about the privacy of its customers when dealing with a known bad actor who has repeatedly abused multiple Apple APIs to spy on Apple’s customers.

But when all you have is a hammer, all you see is nails. And you definitely have an “Apple is an evil anticompetitive enterprise that needs to be reigned in” hammer.

You really should do yourself a favor and start using the products of a company that more aligns with you values rather than making iOS worse for those of us who like what we have. You’ll be much happier in the long run.

Well it kind of depends on their actual request. Apple refers to the GDPR, and Meta is still required to follow it if they have access to some of these things.

Apple is to vague for any judgement on the thing Meta asks for. Example the ability to receive iMessages/ sms in WhatsApp/messenger and to send with it as the standard.

Being able to use AirPlay from the iPhone to their oculus headset. Or to have the ability to show iOS notifications from apps on a potential smartwatch( don’t know if they have one) etc etc.

 

[surferfb]

Well it kind of depends on their actual request. Apple refers to the GDPR, and Meta is still required to follow it if they have access to some of these things.

Apple is to vague for any judgement on the thing Meta asks for. Example the ability to receive iMessages/ sms in WhatsApp/messenger and to send with it as the standard.

Being able to use AirPlay from the iPhone to their oculus headset. Or to have the ability to show iOS notifications from apps on a potential smartwatch( don’t know if they have one) etc etc.

Everything in that sheet furthers my conviction that this is entirely about user privacy and not about being anticompetitive or protecting Vision Pro.

Do you really trust Meta to be a good actor when it comes to accessing data that Apple doesn’t even access itself (although it could) because the data is too personal?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Everything in that sheet furthers my conviction that this is entirely about user privacy and not about being anticompetitive or protecting Vision Pro.

Do you really trust Meta to be a good actor when it comes to accessing data that Apple doesn’t even access itself (although it could) because the data is too personal?

I don’t trust Meta, but it’s still dependent on what’s actually asked.

Example to use WhatsApp/ Facebook messenger as the primary messaging app requires access to sms/imessage etc.

Meta is still bared from using that information. Hence they must meet DSA (Digital services act) and the GDPR.

Or how the access to showing notifications or airplay works. It can be that meta wants to implement Airplay 2 with their glasses but aren’t allowed to do so by Apple.

Apple can still require full encryption. Apple is still the one with the APIs they need to interact with.

 

[9081094]

Metadata is not encrypted under Facebook’s ownership of WhatsApp. Facebook records who you contact, how often you contact them, when you contact them, etc. It’s in the terms of service.

Almost every user of WhatsApp I know switch to Signal when Facebook purchased WhatsApp. That’s what I use personally. I mean, if you’re gonna use a third-party service, it’s nuts to use something owned by Facebook rather than Signal itself.

Apple shot themselves in the foot by not allowing iMessage on Android. I have absolutely no interest in using iMessage anymore.

What are you talking about?

WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption is used when you chat with another person using WhatsApp Messenger. End-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp.

https://faq.whatsapp.com › ...

​

 

[9081094]

Everything in that sheet furthers my conviction that this is entirely about user privacy and not about being anticompetitive or protecting Vision Pro.

Do you really trust Meta to be a good actor when it comes to accessing data that Apple doesn’t even access itself (although it could) because the data is too personal?

WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption is used when you chat with another person using WhatsApp Messenger. End-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp.

https://faq.whatsapp.com › ...

​

WhatsApp was built on the protocols of signal FYI

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Well, my iPhone has USB-C now, thanks to the EU

Yeah mine too, and my airpods. A right pain as I had all the lightning cables everywhere that my wife and daughter also use. I was very happy with them.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Everything in that sheet furthers my conviction that this is entirely about user privacy and not about being anticompetitive or protecting Vision Pro.

Everything?

They’ve “given” AirPlay support to so many third-party TV sets by now. And third-party apps have it reverse engineered. What would be the privacy issue with that?

👉 No doubt that’s just about being anticompetitive

They had no qualms whatsoever to provide it to the TV manufacturers, when it benefitted their ecosystem. But now that they have a headset competing with Meta, it’s something dangerous from a privacy standpoint?