I'm thinking of selling my blackbook to get an "older" MBP. Is there any way Apple will configure it with a different GPU? And if they don't is the only way to get the defective one out w/o spending money is to wait for it to fail? That's ridiculous!!
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Apple says some MacBook Pros affected by faulty Nvidia chips
- Thread starter HiFiGuy528
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Which probably means that yes, a greater-than-normal number have/will fail. But that's hardly indication that it'll be 100%, and I sincerely doubt that the extended warranties would have even been implemented if it weren't nVidia funding them.
If there's going to be an increased failure rate over time. Given that the problem is the solder, then I would expect most cases to happen early on in the chip's life; it's not the kind of problem that's affected by amount of usage over time, but rather the type (if you break the thermal limit on the solder inside the computer--rather a one-off event, though of course repeating it will make the problem worse).
So unless a user has a sudden change of usage pattern, I wouldn't expect to see it showing up years down the road. And the short length of the warranty extensions seems to be an indication that nVidia doesn't expect this either.
Phrasikleia
macrumors 601
I hope you're right, but it's not a thermal limit but the cumulative affect of thermal variations that ultimately causes the failure. Cycles of hot and cold eventually wear down the substrate and cause the chip to lose contact with the die--and therefore fail. So it's an insidious problem, not one that happens as a "one-off event"; it's kind of like bending a piece of metal back and forth until it finally snaps (for lack of a better analogy).
bushbaby
macrumors 6502a
I totally agree with you. It is ridiculous. Which is why I don't think it's worth the gamble to spend $2000 for a machine that is known to be defective. I ordered, learned about the faulty gpu, and so sent back a refurb.
Not only are you waiting for yours to fail, having to be out your computer at what might be a bad time, but if it doesn't fail within two years, your resale value is greatly reduced. How many of us have had something go wrong one year and a few days on a one year warranty? (me - airport base station)
I agree with Phrasikleia about how these could go anytime. And from what has been written about it, they are going to fail in very large numbers. Some reporters have said they will all fail eventually. Nvidia didn't set aside 200 million for nothing.
That's my understanding too, unfortunately.
At this point, we really don't have too much to go on, besides the Inquirer article which is only 1 source. I have little or no trust in Nvidia of course, and Apple hasn't exactly divulged a lot of information.
Hopefully over the next few months we will have a clearer picture on this. I'd like to think if failure rate past the extended warranty will be significant, then Apple will extend the extra warranty period. But it may take much screaming and shouting for it to happen.
This is what I've gathered. Months ago, Nvidia said that some of its mobile GPUs might be defective but not the ones in Apple products. A few month later Apple says "Uhh... I think some of the ones inside our products are affected too" and offers the warranty extension.
The only "credible" source is an Inquirer article which claims that the desktop GPUs are also bad which NOBODY has ever come forth and said and there is no evidence to back that up. Inquirer also happens to hate Nvidia.
This flaw isn't limited to the 8600m, but also the others in the 8xxx series like the 8400 found in many 13" and 15" notebooks from other manufacturers who have released BIOS updates to make the fans runs higher. They also have warranty extensions of their own.
I've decided there isn't anything to worry about. Apple claims it only affects some gpus. They continue to sell it on closeout models, refurbs, and the new 17" MacBook Pro. If it was a serious flaw, they would not do this.
If the problem doesn't show up within two years, it probably means you're fine. If it does show up, then you can get a replacement. Apple has issued an out-of-warranty replacement on iMac G5 video cards in the past without any time limit. This and the fact that they are using nVidia chipsets/GPUs in all the new Macbooks leads me to believe that it is entirely safe.
Stop worrying, stop being paranoid, it isn't a ticking time bomb. Just remember when you read things on internet forums, people like to lie and bend the truth. Also, it may seem when there is a huge discussion about an issue that everybody is having that issue. But mainly only the people having that issue are going to be complaining about it.
Most of the posts in this thread are by Phrasikleia who has a working MacBook Pro and is just super paranoid that it will crap out. Calm down! Stop worrying about it!
The only "credible" source is an Inquirer article which claims that the desktop GPUs are also bad which NOBODY has ever come forth and said and there is no evidence to back that up. Inquirer also happens to hate Nvidia.
This flaw isn't limited to the 8600m, but also the others in the 8xxx series like the 8400 found in many 13" and 15" notebooks from other manufacturers who have released BIOS updates to make the fans runs higher. They also have warranty extensions of their own.
I've decided there isn't anything to worry about. Apple claims it only affects some gpus. They continue to sell it on closeout models, refurbs, and the new 17" MacBook Pro. If it was a serious flaw, they would not do this.
If the problem doesn't show up within two years, it probably means you're fine. If it does show up, then you can get a replacement. Apple has issued an out-of-warranty replacement on iMac G5 video cards in the past without any time limit. This and the fact that they are using nVidia chipsets/GPUs in all the new Macbooks leads me to believe that it is entirely safe.
Stop worrying, stop being paranoid, it isn't a ticking time bomb. Just remember when you read things on internet forums, people like to lie and bend the truth. Also, it may seem when there is a huge discussion about an issue that everybody is having that issue. But mainly only the people having that issue are going to be complaining about it.
Most of the posts in this thread are by Phrasikleia who has a working MacBook Pro and is just super paranoid that it will crap out. Calm down! Stop worrying about it!
Phrasikleia
macrumors 601
Well, this thread has over 300 posts, and about 10 of them are mine, not "most" of them. So here's another one from me.
You're absolutely right that paranoia is running high, but it's not like we're worried that some random part is going to fail. It's a legitimate concern, and some of us are trying to sort out the level of risk and our options because we have decisions to make.
Since you seem to take the Inquirer and internet forums with a grain of salt, let's go right to the source: Nvidia. They set aside $200 million dollars for a part that retails for as much as $1200. (I presume the desktop GPUs are cheaper than the mobile ones, but let's use that higher number to skew in favor of your low-risk assessment.) I don't know what the part costs NVidia to make, so I'll assume a 20% margin, which would again be skewing in your favor. So then NVidia, by these numbers, has set aside enough money to cover at least 200,000 units in the "Second Quarter Fiscal 2009". If their manufacturing cost averages less than $1000 per unit, then the number of expected failures is higher, of course.
bushbaby
macrumors 6502a
So glad youve decided there isnt anything to worry about. Now we can all relax.
It is a serious flaw. 200 million dollars, Id call that serious. However it is so pervasive that Apple could not afford to do a complete recall. They were also in the difficult position of already having a deal in place with the same company for the production of the new October mbps. To discredit nvidia is to discredit your new line - and also further devalues your previous line with the known flaw (look at the money Apple is making selling these on the clearance/refurb site).
So Apple, as well as the PC makers that used the faulty nvidia gpu, decided to just let the the gpus fail and replace as customers bring them in. They also chose to continue to sell all the faulty inventory at reduced prices once the new Oct mbps were available.
Due to the cause of the manufacturing fault, all the 8600s are in jeopardy. And who wants to baby their computer? Its like buying a used M3 and being told to baby the engine because it has an admitted fault where it completely dies if you start and stop it too many times or drive over 70 once too many times.
Also, this class-action lawsuit from the stockholders points to this entire fiasco being a major issue.
Last month, Nvidia shareholders joined the fight by filing a class-action lawsuit, accusing the company of violating federal securities laws by concealing the existence of a serious defect in its graphics chip line for at least eight months in a series of false and misleading statements made to the investing public.
http://www.appleinsider.com/article...ook_pros_affected_by_faulty_nvidia_chips.html
Apple only just recently admitted the problem although frustrated customers had been bringing in dead video screens and having to pay for repairs themselves.
Last Modified: October 10, 2008
Article: TS2377
Symptoms
In July 2008, NVIDIA publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect. At that same time, NVIDIA assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected. However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected. If the NVIDIA graphics processor in your MacBook Pro has failed, or fails within two years of the original date of purchase, a repair will be done free of charge, even if your MacBook Pro is out of warranty.
What to look for:
_ Distorted or scrambled video on the computer screen
_ No video on the computer screen (or external display) even though the computer is on
Macworld article:
Perez said that the $196 million charge Nvidia took two months ago would cover the additional cost of any reimbursement to Apple. "Yes, Apple falls under that amount," he said.
Both 15-inch and 17-inch MacBook Pro models are included in the potential free repair. The symptoms, said Apple, include no video, or distorted or scrambled video. Only MacBook Pros with the GeForce 8600M GT processor manufactured between May 2007 and September 2008 are affected, the company said.
However, all MacBook Pro models now for sale on Apple's online store still contain the GeForce 8600M GT processor.
[note: the article was written before the Oct 14 release but still applies to the refurb and clearance machines]
http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=23121
The admission of this is still fairly recent. Give the media time to write more articles about this mess.
orpheus1120
macrumors 65816
So is this true? Has anybody actually confirmed that they will replace the GPU even if the MBP is out of warranty? If so I'm placing my order tonight!
I grabbed a 2.4ghz the other day - haven't opened the box yet because I luckly found this information.
Apple's site says:
MacBook Pro 15-inch and 17-inch models with NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processors
* MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz)
* MacBook Pro (15-Inch, 2.4/2.2GHz)
* MacBook Pro (Early 2008)
What are the chances the 8600m GT 512mb in the 2.5ghz aren't effected? I know there is 256mb difference, but wouldn't they be the same card essentially? I'll return the 2.4ghz and grab a 2.5ghz if I can be reassured the card is not the same.
Thoughts?
Apple's site says:
MacBook Pro 15-inch and 17-inch models with NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processors
* MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz)
* MacBook Pro (15-Inch, 2.4/2.2GHz)
* MacBook Pro (Early 2008)
What are the chances the 8600m GT 512mb in the 2.5ghz aren't effected? I know there is 256mb difference, but wouldn't they be the same card essentially? I'll return the 2.4ghz and grab a 2.5ghz if I can be reassured the card is not the same.
Thoughts?
blueheron
macrumors newbie
Hope that we find out - mine looks great now. Good luck. I cant believe that they wouldn't have tested them before shipment...
Today I ordered the previous gen mbp on the clearance part of apple's site. It's nice knowing that one of the only concerns I should have is the CHANCE of the gpu failing, bu then I can send it back to apple if it's within the (two years I believe?) I feel better knowing I should receive a powerful, well designed machine, and not have to worry about dead pixels, dust getting behind a very shiny glass on the new ones, and who knows what else yet. (I hope this brings some hope back to this thread lol)
I am sorry but I find no logic in your response to the poster. How can your OPINION of someone seeking assistance and options from the manufacturer of a KNOWN and PUBLICIZED manufacturing defect be considered asinine in any way? Your statement is as if you felt the poster was making up the issue in their mind. This is a real issue affecting a great many people. Whether their expensive supposedly quality machine has actually failed yet is not the question here but the fact people are being told they HAVE DEFECTIVE GPUs in their machines without very much details at all is certainly in any logical assessment a reason to seek out options with the manufacturer. You act as if Apple shouldn't be bothered even though they manufactured machines containing this defective component in it. I do not care if they did not make the part themselves, as they designed and built a machine using these parts without obvious adequate testing or this issue would have been discovered before production. In the end Apple is the one selling the machine and whatever vendor they use for their parts is their responsibility not the customer's. I would also expect manufacturing engineered products would have a product liability insurance policy for such things. But regardless, a faithful customer who invested in a product who is now legitimately concerned that their options are not only limited but completely unfair as those warranty extensions are made within timeframes to ultimately minimize the expense of repair by ensuring the majority of failures will never be addressed because they will fail outside of warranty letting them off the hook. I would not expect this kind of treatment even for a $100 item let alone a highly engineered quality notebook costing thousands of dollars. This whole fiasco is the most blatant I had ever seen of pushing cost of defects to the consumer to shield corporate health. In fact it is so ridiculous I won't be surprised when the class actions start becoming precedents in future cases. Just watch and see. I do feel bad in some way for Apple, Dell, Hp, etc for trusting Nvidia, but thats not the customer's problem and shouldn't be made to be like this.
Anyway, I also felt your comments to this poster were extremely rude and unwarranted. You like everyone else has a right to your opinion but remember it is but your opinion and being rude towards others never reinforces you viewpoint but instead reinforces only the type of person that is spewing it. My suggestion to you would be that before you reply like you did here again in the future, you might want to take a minute to try and put yourself in the other person's position and think how you might feel hearing the comments your about to make. You might just find that your initial feelings may not be what you originally felt as right. And even if you still come to the same conclusion, there is no reason you can't communicate your opinion with respect and courtesy towards others. Anyway give it a try and you might even find more happiness in your own life.
Romanesq
macrumors 6502a
Some common sense...
Some people have a hope that some of the 8600 Macbook Pros will fall outside the manufacturer date of September 08.
Okay let me ask you, if Apple was rolling out new notebooks just a few days ago, how many of the "old" ones do you think they were possibly making two weeks before that?
Would you like to hear the total? Here it is: Zero.
As someone who is the proud owner (since last Thursday) of a destined to die Macbook Pro, I called Apple and was put on hold so they could tell me my computer was built conveniently in the 41st week.
So that put it into October.
Then I asked so what's different about it then? I was told there was a "patch" for those like mine built in the "41st" week.
Gee, do you really think that makes any sense?
Really, let's admit the reality and move on.
All the 2008 Macbook Pros are in the same boat with faulty 8600 Nvidia graphic cards, end of story.
Some people have a hope that some of the 8600 Macbook Pros will fall outside the manufacturer date of September 08.
Okay let me ask you, if Apple was rolling out new notebooks just a few days ago, how many of the "old" ones do you think they were possibly making two weeks before that?
Would you like to hear the total? Here it is: Zero.
As someone who is the proud owner (since last Thursday) of a destined to die Macbook Pro, I called Apple and was put on hold so they could tell me my computer was built conveniently in the 41st week.
So that put it into October.
Then I asked so what's different about it then? I was told there was a "patch" for those like mine built in the "41st" week.
Gee, do you really think that makes any sense?
Really, let's admit the reality and move on.
All the 2008 Macbook Pros are in the same boat with faulty 8600 Nvidia graphic cards, end of story.
A patch for defective soldering materials? HAHHAAA LOL! Thats a great one! Anyway Unless they want everyone to think that every single GPU has the issue, then they really need to give us the info as to which serial #s, exact lots, etc are affected. Like in my case, I bought my MBP SR back in June of 07 which were the very first production runs of the new model. I never had any issues thus far but neither can they tell me if my GPU is one of the affected ones. Why is this?
bushbaby
macrumors 6502a
Hi. If you read the third line, it just covers Mbps in "early" 08 as well as the above. Now in later articles, "early 08" was defined as before Oct - not clear of the exact cutoff, but we are going on the theory that the Oct 14 release, new, mbps are not affected. We could be wrong, but as the others said, until Apple comes clean, we are on our own here.
My best guess is that it's at least every mbp with the 8600 gpu up to Sept/Oct.
bushbaby
macrumors 6502a
No way this could have been a new Oct 14 mbp that went bad and got refurbed. I'd guess it's one of their big inventory with the 8600 chips. But it's just a guess.
bushbaby
macrumors 6502a
No one is saying they didn't test them first. I'm sure they did test all the refurbs the way they say they do on the site. The problem is not that they'll be DOA, but that the faulty 8600 gpu will fail later as it's known to do.
Please read.... I really need some advice as Apple won't fix my broken machine! 🙁
My MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz) broke with exactly the symptoms of the Nvidia problem, distorted pixels and then dead screen. My machine is 14 months old and has the GeForce 8600M GT chipset.
It started off with the pixel problem very intermittently and then one day the screen just died! This was about 3 weeks before the problem was admitted by Apple. I took my MBP to the genius bar and he said yup, it's dead it'll be £650 to mend it thanks... Couldn't afford it at the time so I thought i'd better wait a while.
3 weeks later Apple highlighted the problem with the chipset and I was so pleased! I dug out my MBP and started it up just to check it and it started up fine for a few times then the problem came back when it seemed it got warm! So i rushed off down to the "Genius Bar" again and told him of the developments (of which he wasn't aware at the time). He said, it does sound exactly like the fault and they would have to run a "new" test on it which would say whether that was the fault or not... A couple of days later, they got back to me and said it passed the test and I would have to pay to get it fixed... don't really know how as the machine still doesn't work!
Where can I go from here.. the "Genius" was quite abrupt and didn't really offer any help or advice to me which in turn made me feel pretty annoyed when I had left the shop.
Does anyone know of the test they run...? And where I might be able to get hold of it?
I had run the standard apple hardware test and the errors it came up with are:
4VDC/1/40000003: Video Controller
Thanks in advance, i'm just gutted 😕
My MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz) broke with exactly the symptoms of the Nvidia problem, distorted pixels and then dead screen. My machine is 14 months old and has the GeForce 8600M GT chipset.
It started off with the pixel problem very intermittently and then one day the screen just died! This was about 3 weeks before the problem was admitted by Apple. I took my MBP to the genius bar and he said yup, it's dead it'll be £650 to mend it thanks... Couldn't afford it at the time so I thought i'd better wait a while.
3 weeks later Apple highlighted the problem with the chipset and I was so pleased! I dug out my MBP and started it up just to check it and it started up fine for a few times then the problem came back when it seemed it got warm! So i rushed off down to the "Genius Bar" again and told him of the developments (of which he wasn't aware at the time). He said, it does sound exactly like the fault and they would have to run a "new" test on it which would say whether that was the fault or not... A couple of days later, they got back to me and said it passed the test and I would have to pay to get it fixed... don't really know how as the machine still doesn't work!
Where can I go from here.. the "Genius" was quite abrupt and didn't really offer any help or advice to me which in turn made me feel pretty annoyed when I had left the shop.
Does anyone know of the test they run...? And where I might be able to get hold of it?
I had run the standard apple hardware test and the errors it came up with are:
4VDC/1/40000003: Video Controller
Thanks in advance, i'm just gutted 😕
Romanesq
macrumors 6502a
New test...
Very hard situation. Problem is whenever there is a video problem of any kind most people will rightly believe that it's the video card. On this particular test, did they identify what the problem was and if it was say the screen?
My understanding is that Apple has set up a test that will show if the card fails but I don't know anyone who has something identical to test at home.
I would take it back to the Apple Store for another test and an explanation. You deserve to know what the problem is and how it can be addressed at a minimum.
This is not heartwarming either.
Very hard situation. Problem is whenever there is a video problem of any kind most people will rightly believe that it's the video card. On this particular test, did they identify what the problem was and if it was say the screen?
My understanding is that Apple has set up a test that will show if the card fails but I don't know anyone who has something identical to test at home.
I would take it back to the Apple Store for another test and an explanation. You deserve to know what the problem is and how it can be addressed at a minimum.
This is not heartwarming either.
blueheron
macrumors newbie
No - I bought and received the old style 2.5 mbp. Has the problem definitively been linked to bad soldering? Because if it has, I agree, we are screwed... Probably just a matter of time. I didn't buy Applecare on this one, thinking about waiting until the end of the year. Do you think it would be prudent? Times are tough...
Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window.
Steve Wozniak
Yes, you're all screwed. Anybody with an 8600m is screwed. Especially bushbaby and Phrasikleia. 😉