Apple Says Spotify Wants 'Limitless Access' to App Store Tools Without Paying

[wbeasley]

If you don’t download, install and use a different AppStore, then there is no possible way they can affect you.

Especially if you don’t even live in an area where they’re available.

You’re spreading fud at this point.

nope you are the one spreading misinformation.

the next iOS release, to everyone worldwide, will contain the code the EU demanded which can be switched on by EU users.

the code will be the same for everyone. it's not an EU only branch.

some posters have already been raising ideas like having multiple IDs they switch between.
if you have an EU ID that lets you select an alt app store, what happens when you switch back to an nonEU ID?
do you lose the access and revert to Apples app store or do you retain access?
do you still have access to the apps you downloaded from the alt app store?

people are already looking at ways around things.
and that's just casual users not hackers who love to exploit weaknesses.

 

[tehabe]

believe me i have read your words, repeatedly, and you dont seem to read what I respond with and understand that the changes you want affect every single iOS user even if they choose to stay within the walled garden. we dont get a choice. iOS is being modified for everyone.

Well, there are things with which we have to live with. When I read the rumors correctly, iOS 18 will be filled with generative AI things. I don't like those. I think they are a bad idea and a mistake. But essentially they will come and be included in all version of iOS, the only I have is to not use them or turn them off as much as possible like I currently turn off Siri on all of my devices. But it is still there. I don't get a choice. I doubt I will be able to remove them. I don't even know if I'm able to deactivate them completely.

how hard it is to understand?

It is not hard to understand but weird. It is like that believe that the possibility of sideloading or third party app stores will lead to the ability of someone installing something on your device which you don't want to install. And if this would happening, this would be a security issue which Apple should close.

It is reason why I'm so baffled at Apple's response to the DMA, instead of being innovative and making sideloading, 3rd party app stores and pwa as secure as possible and saying we implemented this in a way that it is safe and secure for our users. They complain and whine and say everything will be unsafe and insecure. It is truely embarrassing.

there is one version of iOS going out to everyone. parts will be opened to EU users. but the code will be in every OS update. the doors, as you put it, can be opened by EU users but who is to say someone wont pick those locks?

yes, and some people will try to pick those locks and I'm sure some will be successful but that is the thing, when those locks were the only thing making iOS secure, I would be worried regardless of someone being able to pick those locks. Because essentially those doors and locks were always there. iOS would be able to run sideloaded apps today if you had the key. I mean that was jailbreaks did. The picked the locks Apple put into the doors of the OS. Now EU users just get the keys without needing to jailbreak their phone.

nothing is 100% secure as we've seen again and again.

True. That is why keeping your software up-to-date is important.

you even admit the alt app store is a niche thing. and may not succeed.

We simply don't know.

the risks seem to outweigh the benefits significantly for the majority of iPhone users.

We simply don't know. We can't know.

 

[cupcakes2000]

nope you are the one spreading misinformation.

the next iOS release, to everyone worldwide, will contain the code the EU demanded which can be switched on by EU users.

the code will be the same for everyone. it's not an EU only branch.

some posters have already been raising ideas like having multiple IDs they switch between.
if you have an EU ID that lets you select an alt app store, what happens when you switch back to an nonEU ID?
do you lose the access and revert to Apples app store or do you retain access?
do you still have access to the apps you downloaded from the alt app store?

people are already looking at ways around things.
and that's just casual users not hackers who love to exploit weaknesses.

But you realise you’re making this up, right? You have absolutely no idea whether the code base is the same, or whether something is ‘switched on’ or not. The code is closed, you can’t know. It’s fud. Stop it.

 

[wbeasley]

Well, there are things with which we have to live with. When I read the rumors correctly, iOS 18 will be filled with generative AI things. I don't like those. I think they are a bad idea and a mistake. But essentially they will come and be included in all version of iOS, the only I have is to not use them or turn them off as much as possible like I currently turn off Siri on all of my devices. But it is still there. I don't get a choice. I doubt I will be able to remove them. I don't even know if I'm able to deactivate them completely.


It is not hard to understand but weird. It is like that believe that the possibility of sideloading or third party app stores will lead to the ability of someone installing something on your device which you don't want to install. And if this would happening, this would be a security issue which Apple should close.

It is reason why I'm so baffled at Apple's response to the DMA, instead of being innovative and making sideloading, 3rd party app stores and pwa as secure as possible and saying we implemented this in a way that it is safe and secure for our users. They complain and whine and say everything will be unsafe and insecure. It is truely embarrassing.


yes, and some people will try to pick those locks and I'm sure some will be successful but that is the thing, when those locks were the only thing making iOS secure, I would be worried regardless of someone being able to pick those locks. Because essentially those doors and locks were always there. iOS would be able to run sideloaded apps today if you had the key. I mean that was jailbreaks did. The picked the locks Apple put into the doors of the OS. Now EU users just get the keys without needing to jailbreak their phone.


True. That is why keeping your software up-to-date is important.


We simply don't know.


We simply don't know. We can't know.

disabling a generative AI is easier to do.
people dont use Siri now with a switch.
it is also part of a system and has been for years. developed (and ignored, granted) by Apple so they know the code and limits. As they will know the AI limits as well.
you are pretending this is the same as changing an OS to allow others possibile attack routes. It's not.

how often do people get emails or messages from "friends" because their contact list was hacked?
it's one of the most common vectors for infection because inately we trust names we know...

Apple have been forced, under legal threats, to make changes they didnt want to. it's not a positive for them. if they want to say they have done all they can to ensure safety BUT still think there are now more opportunities for attacks and misuse then they are doing the right thing and alerting users.

So twice you say "we dont know"... therein lies the issue. you open the bottle and let the genie out and you can never turn back. you seem willing to just believe it will be ok. i've seen too many times unintended side effects of software releases caused government departments big problems. perhaps you've never worked in risk adverse systems like i did. three mainframes for production, testing, dev work. and schedules after hours to rollout, functional test and sign off to remain in production. this is a magnitude of order larger as it can affect billions of devices. we have all seen iOS launches and very quick updates the next day to address unforeseen side effects.

all so a few unhappy campers can get there emulators and porn on their phones...

 

[wbeasley]

But you realise you’re making this up, right? You have absolutely no idea whether the code base is the same, or whether something is ‘switched on’ or not. The code is closed, you can’t know. It’s fud. Stop it.

has anywhere Apple said it will be a special EU release?
they have talked about protecting all users not just EU.

as i said, people are discussing multiple IDs.
has anyone at Apple tested switching IDs from EU and nonEU regions and stated what will happen?

perhaps some exhaustive use case testing is needed and results released.
this could reassure people that Apple have considered scenarios like this.

it's not FUD. you just want what you want and damn the rest of us.

 

[wbeasley]

But you realise you’re making this up, right? You have absolutely no idea whether the code base is the same, or whether something is ‘switched on’ or not. The code is closed, you can’t know. It’s fud. Stop it.

you are the person who stated they have multiple Apple IDs.

surely even you are wondering if the apps you externally installed with your EU ID will still be visible/run when you switch to an non EU ID?

what do you think will happen?

 

[wbeasley]

Fundamentally we have two opposing voices on this topic: Open vs Closed.

But we all bought iPhones knowing the walled garden existed.

The EU is now forcing this to change because of lobbying. Not consumer driven. Not small app dev driven.
Apple have said they have complied with the directive and I guess we all cross our fingers the changes dont stuff up what worked well for the majority for years.

Not long before we see what happens...

I hope they have tested and tested and imagined all the the silly things users can do by accident or maliciously.

And at the end, I can't see Spotify or Epic being happy about the changes - theyve already started complaining - or successful with their alt stores...

Hopefully Apple keep 17.3 signed and available as a rollback solution if things dont work out.
This will be the first time I havent auto upgraded iOS on release.

 

[cupcakes2000]

you are the person who stated they have multiple Apple IDs.

surely even you are wondering if the apps you externally installed with your EU ID will still be visible/run when you switch to an non EU ID?

what do you think will happen?

I dont know, but I highly doubt it’s based solely on the ID. I suspect it’s actual location based also. They won’t make it so easy to spoof. I think there is an EU build - if you change locations after that and update, I have no idea.

But this is Apple fracturing their own eco system. They should just suck it up and make an elegant Apple-esque solution incorporating the rules for everyone. You have been able to side load (with massive limitations, but still) on iOS for a very long time. I’m not sure why some people think the world will come tumbling down around them. It’s extremely strange!

 

[wbeasley]

I dont know, but I highly doubt it’s based solely on the ID. I suspect it’s actual location based also. They won’t make it so easy to spoof. I think there is an EU build - if you change locations after that and update, I have no idea.

But this is Apple fracturing their own eco system. They should just suck it up and make an elegant Apple-esque solution incorporating the rules for everyone. You have been able to side load (with massive limitations, but still) on iOS for a very long time. I’m not sure why some people think the world will come tumbling down around them. It’s extremely strange!

well you summed it up "I have no idea" what will happen when you already suggested you would change IDs with EU and nonEU ID on your phone.

Suddenly it is up to Apple to protect your device with an "elegant Apple-esque solution"...

Why do "SOME PEOPLE" think the world is going to tumble down?
Could it be as you described that we just dont know how simple things like changing IDs from one country to another will work in the real world? I did years of user acceptance testing on mainframes and I can tell you every time you thought you had all situations covered, some user would do something unique and often silly and break your system. These were just simple users doing things they thought they could or should do. Not hackers trying to leverage a weakness...

I would love for someone at Apple to explain what would happen when you switch IDs from EU to NonEU and back again. And is the DMA change ID or Country/Region based?

 

[treacher]

They'd have to wait 90 days to be able to even do that.

 

[wbeasley]

or 89 days... whatever that comment was meant to address... context? it would help....

 

[treacher]

Changing a region starts a 90-day timer before you can change it again.

 

[bluecoast]

How many devs come on here and dont complain about 30%? Quite a few.

APple do not need to "lovebomb" devs. They set the rules and it was a much better proposition than many faced with physical stores. Easy updates. No wasted packaging and returns. 30% (or 15%) is a very attractive deal already to most smaller devs.

The spiraliing is a few noisy big companies who want it all free.

They have it free now.
Subscribe outside and download app free. That's it. They pay Apple nothing more than $99 a year.

But they want to push the envelope, against the rules, and sell inside the app.
If they sell in physical stores code cards they pay at least 30% probably.
They just want a free way (and they'll ditch retail stores altogether.)

Well the EU obviously feels differently after today's news.

 

[wbeasley]

Well the EU obviously feels differently after today's news.

And the EU dont create apps... and this isnt news today. It's been discussed for weeks. they just released the big scary number today.

And Apple will appeal that number soon.

Like last time when the EU carried on about Apple using Ireland.
It's taken 10 years for them to come up with this number.
How much does tech change in 5 years let alone 10?

And the fine goes to... of course, themselves. Hahahaha.

Perhaps they will fund ammunition for Ukraine or the missed NATO payments?
The EU have more pressing issues that a music streaming service they could focus on...

 

[wbeasley]

Changing a region starts a 90-day timer before you can change it again.

Cédric Waldburger, 34, and Rainer-Marc Frey, 59, visited 30 countries in 24 hours, setting a new world record on August 23, 2022.

They must have had a lot of trouble setting their country at each stopover...

 

[treacher]

What does that have to do with Apple's 90-day policy for Apple ID regions? You keep your region as your home country while you travel.

 

[bluecoast]

And the EU dont create apps... and this isnt news today. It's been discussed for weeks. they just released the big scary number today.

And Apple will appeal that number soon.

Like last time when the EU carried on about Apple using Ireland.
It's taken 10 years for them to come up with this number.
How much does tech change in 5 years let alone 10?

And the fine goes to... of course, themselves. Hahahaha.

Perhaps they will fund ammunition for Ukraine or the missed NATO payments?
The EU have more pressing issues that a music streaming service they could focus on...

Well let's agree to disagree. Think that the EU has some good points.

As for arms and NATO payments - I guess that's a little bit off topic! But yeah, the EU and NATO countries (they are not one and the same) could pony up more.

 

[wbeasley]

Well let's agree to disagree. Think that the EU has some good points.

As for arms and NATO payments - I guess that's a little bit off topic! But yeah, the EU and NATO countries (they are not one and the same) could pony up more.

We will disagree i think.
I see nothing good for consumers at all in the EU ruling.
Maybe Apple just ups prices to compensate. You dont win then.

An Epic and Spotify are already whinging about DMA changes not being what they wanted.

I get EU and NATO arent the same but if I was in the EU i'd be worried about what's knocking on the door to get in more than this.

 

[TracesOfArsenic]

Um, we all know Temu and Wish - crap products that never look like what you thought you were buying.

So how does that relate to a curated app store?

Dude, you answered your own question with your preceding statement. I love it.

 

[wbeasley]

Dude, you answered your own question with your preceding statement. I love it.

you cant help is an app looks legit yet the good are dodgy... many a friend has "liked" Temu and Wish and then up pops the Facebook post saying they like those sex toys...

But then again, you could easily get a dodgy Uber driver too. It's not the app that's a fault.