Apple Says Spotify Wants 'Limitless Access' to App Store Tools Without Paying

[wbeasley]

Look at marketplaces like Temu and Wish. What's the bar for quality there? Quantity means jack.

Um, we all know Temu and Wish - crap products that never look like what you thought you were buying.

So how does that relate to a curated app store?

Quantity might mean nothing to you but there are millions of people writing software and distributing and making money from it. If an app is crap, it gets user reviewed and hammered. Apple even cleaned up old apps that werent updated to use newer Xocde compilation. Abandoned apps effectively.

What apps are you wanting to install via an alt app store?

 

[tehabe]

What apps are you wanting to install via an alt app store?

How is this question relevant? As I said before that is like asking a subject in an absolute monarchy who they will vote for once the monarchy is abolished and a democratic republic is established. We don't know if or which app stores will be available. We don't know which apps will be available.

And as I said also, on Android one of the most visible third party app stores is F-Droid which offers only open source software. Which would be a win because there are some who are of the opinion that Apple's App Store rules are incompatible with the GPL.

 

[wbeasley]

How is this question relevant? As I said before that is like asking a subject in an absolute monarchy who they will vote for once the monarchy is abolished and a democratic republic is established. We don't know if or which app stores will be available. We don't know which apps will be available.

And as I said also, on Android one of the most visible third party app stores is F-Droid which offers only open source software. Which would be a win because there are some who are of the opinion that Apple's App Store rules are incompatible with the GPL.

You say you can’t install what you want so it’s very relevant to ask what apps you can’t. And want to.

You can do whatever you like on Android.
If you really want to do that buy an Android.

If you think Apple is in breach of open source Apple can pull it from App Store. Happy?

 

[tehabe]

You say you can’t install what you want so it’s very relevant to ask what apps you can’t. And want to.

I give up, I tried to explain the thing to you you are either not able or not willing to understand what my argument is. It is not the first time. It is not even funny anymore. Especially I didn't say that. My argument is, that they is the chance of a wider availability of apps on iOS than there is now. These can lead to apps which were not possible today because Apple doesn't allow those on their App Store. We don't and we can't know what will happen. I use F-Droid as an example. Because many of those apps are not developed yet because people know which apps can be released on the Apple App Store which can't, so nobody will invest time to develop them. This might change now.

But maybe you should finally switch, just to get a new perspective on life and things which are out there. The Apple eco system is preventing you from experiencing real life and that there is more than Apple out there.

 

[treacher]

I want the choice of a locked-down Android, and an open iOS. That would be fun!

 

[wbeasley]

I give up, I tried to explain the thing to you you are either not able or not willing to understand what my argument is. It is not the first time. It is not even funny anymore. Especially I didn't say that. My argument is, that they is the chance of a wider availability of apps on iOS than there is now. These can lead to apps which were not possible today because Apple doesn't allow those on their App Store. We don't and we can't know what will happen. I use F-Droid as an example. Because many of those apps are not developed yet because people know which apps can be released on the Apple App Store which can't, so nobody will invest time to develop them. This might change now.

But maybe you should finally switch, just to get a new perspective on life and things which are out there. The Apple eco system is preventing you from experiencing real life and that there is more than Apple out there.

Hahahaha. The Apple walled garden is suiting me (and many others by comments on here) and we arent happy that our choice to use a device with set known limits is being forced open by the EU. The same EU who forced USB C charging but didnt understand that USB C is also a wider spec and includes transfer speeds

You can say we dont have to use alt app stores or alt payments BUT iOS is now being changed for all users to include code that opens things up for EU users. This can provide vectors for hackers to exploit and an EU decision does affect everyone.

I have turned off Auto Update and will wait before deciding to upgrade to this version.
If you have ever done Risk Assessments for software rollouts you would know this isnt a trivial change and there are billions who could be affected if something wasnt tested or protected.

 

[tehabe]

The Apple walled garden is suiting me (and many others by comments on here) and we arent happy that our choice to use a device with set known limits is being forced open by the EU.

That is the thing. The EU might be flawed like every state and government but it has some democratic legitimacy compared to a corporation. And I don't think corporation should have the right to put me in a walled garden.

The same EU who forced USB C charging but didnt understand that USB C is also a wider spec and includes transfer speeds

That is the thing, the EU only wanted to specify the connector and minimal requirements. So yes, for charging you don't need a USB 3/4 or Thunderbolt. This was never the point of the regulation.

The point of the DMA is create markets were there were none before or were there were limited by a gatekeeper. The EU could also have regulated that Apple must submit their App Store rules for approval and must create a system which prevents arbitrary decisions. Kinda what they did for in the DSA.

Instead they said, Apple can have their rules but they must accept third party stores on iOS with their own rules.

The discussion is a reason why can't have nice things.

 

[wbeasley]

That is the thing. The EU might be flawed like every state and government but it has some democratic legitimacy compared to a corporation. And I don't think corporation should have the right to put me in a walled garden.


That is the thing, the EU only wanted to specify the connector and minimal requirements. So yes, for charging you don't need a USB 3/4 or Thunderbolt. This was never the point of the regulation.

The point of the DMA is create markets were there were none before or were there were limited by a gatekeeper. The EU could also have regulated that Apple must submit their App Store rules for approval and must create a system which prevents arbitrary decisions. Kinda what they did for in the DSA.

Instead they said, Apple can have their rules but they must accept third party stores on iOS with their own rules.

The discussion is a reason why can't have nice things.

Ah but people now complain Apple are being stingy using USB 2.0 speeds for data transfer when the plug change was all that was specified.

They will also complain (and are already) the the iOS change coming isnt allowing them to do what they thought the DMA included.

When you buy a phone you already know it has a walled garden for apps.
Why complain afterwards you wanted it open?
If the device doesnt meet your needs, dont buy it.
If enough people buy a different phone because Apple arent selling phones users see value in they would change.
Thats market driven competition. Not what the EU are doing.

Do you really think Spotify are going to charge users less who use their store? Or Epic?

 

[tehabe]

Ah but people now complain Apple are being stingy using USB 2.0 speeds for data transfer when the plug change was all that was specified.

What has this todo with anything? It was Apple's choice to only give the Pro variant a higher USB speed. A weird argument to bring up.

They will also complain (and are already) the the iOS change coming isnt allowing them to do what they thought the DMA included.

Apple's implementation is awful and shows that they don't care about their users.

When you buy a phone you already know it has a walled garden for apps.
Why complain afterwards you wanted it open?

I bought an iPhone in spite of the walled garden, it was on the minus column on my list of things. Also for me at the moment it is not the important problem I have with iOS and I hoped Apple would come to their senses and stop being so patronising to their user base. That it needed government intervention to force Apple to open up the iPhone is IMO embarrassing for Apple. And it is confusing to see people demaning locked up devices. I don't understand this from a country which sings about itself "the land of the free and the home of the brave"

Do you really think Spotify are going to charge users less who use their store? Or Epic?

No idea and I don't care. For Spotify a level playing field with Apple Music is more important. It doesn't want to pay for things Apple Music gets for free. As for Epic, my guess is, the store will work like their store for Windows or macOS works.

And again, nobody will force you to use a third party app store. It will completely your choice and when a developer decide to leave Apple's App Store for a third party one it is their choice.

 

[wbeasley]

What has this todo with anything? It was Apple's choice to only give the Pro variant a higher USB speed. A weird argument to bring up.


Apple's implementation is awful and shows that they don't care about their users.


I bought an iPhone in spite of the walled garden, it was on the minus column on my list of things. Also for me at the moment it is not the important problem I have with iOS and I hoped Apple would come to their senses and stop being so patronising to their user base. That it needed government intervention to force Apple to open up the iPhone is IMO embarrassing for Apple. And it is confusing to see people demaning locked up devices. I don't understand this from a country which sings about itself "the land of the free and the home of the brave"


No idea and I don't care. For Spotify a level playing field with Apple Music is more important. It doesn't want to pay for things Apple Music gets for free. As for Epic, my guess is, the store will work like their store for Windows or macOS works.

And again, nobody will force you to use a third party app store. It will completely your choice and when a developer decide to leave Apple's App Store for a third party one it is their choice.

Ah but no one will force me to use an alt app store yet EVERYONE who upgrades to the new iOS will have code on their device that allows it. If some hacker finds a way to exploit a loophole EVERY device is vulnerable not just those that choose to use apps from elsewhere.

The amount of time you put into arguing about how Apple should open their device up seems to show while you put the walled garden in the negative column, it is a major hurdle for you now. it shouldnt be the count in each column but the importance of those items. One super negative could easily have ruled out the iPhone as the device for you.

Other people seem to think USB C at slow speeds is Apple being malicious.
They have always picked transfer speeds and lower priced devices have been slower. It's how they justify the price for Pro devices. Laptops get Thunderbolt speeds on high end devices.

Spotify perhaps should also engage in level playing field and pay artists the same as Apple do.

 

[tehabe]

If some hacker finds a way to exploit a loophole EVERY device is vulnerable not just those that choose to use apps from elsewhere.

I remember a security issue with iOS which made it possible to jail break from the browser. Security issues won't become more or less with this. And Apple still can fix those.

The amount of time you put into arguing about how Apple should open their device up seems to show while you put the walled garden in the negative column, it is a major hurdle for you now.

Why do think that? Yeah, I think Apple should open up iOS, because I think it will improve iOS and make it a better OS in the future.

it shouldnt be the count in each column but the importance of those items. One super negative could easily have ruled out the iPhone as the device for you.

Thank you, that you know me and how I decide things better than I do. For me the most important point was the connectivity feature with my Mac. For that I decided to live in the walled garden and to be honest, it is not greener than outside.

Other people seem to think USB C at slow speeds is Apple being malicious.

USB-C is just a connector, it says nothing about being USB 2, 3, 4 or Thunderbolt 3 or 4.

They have always picked transfer speeds and lower priced devices have been slower. It's how they justify the price for Pro devices. Laptops get Thunderbolt speeds on high end devices.

My MacBook Air M1 supports Thunderbolt 3 and USB 4. Most SSDs can't maintein those speed for a long time anyway.

Spotify perhaps should also engage in level playing field and pay artists the same as Apple do.

Neither Spotfy nor Apple Music pay to artists, they pay to rightsholders, and bigger rightsholders get more than smaller ones. If you want to support artists buy CDs or FLACs from independent artists who actually own the rights to the music. But there is a reason you can't buy anything via the Bandcamp app on iOS.

 

[wbeasley]

I remember a security issue with iOS which made it possible to jail break from the browser. Security issues won't become more or less with this. And Apple still can fix those.


Why do think that? Yeah, I think Apple should open up iOS, because I think it will improve iOS and make it a better OS in the future.


Thank you, that you know me and how I decide things better than I do. For me the most important point was the connectivity feature with my Mac. For that I decided to live in the walled garden and to be honest, it is not greener than outside.


USB-C is just a connector, it says nothing about being USB 2, 3, 4 or Thunderbolt 3 or 4.


My MacBook Air M1 supports Thunderbolt 3 and USB 4. Most SSDs can't maintein those speed for a long time anyway.


Neither Spotfy nor Apple Music pay to artists, they pay to rightsholders, and bigger rightsholders get more than smaller ones. If you want to support artists buy CDs or FLACs from independent artists who actually own the rights to the music. But there is a reason you can't buy anything via the Bandcamp app on iOS.

So you are making Apple create a new more open version with possible security holes and expect them to fix them later (and no doubt get upset when you are inconveniences or lose money or personal data is breached).

How will opening it up make it a better OS? It's working quite well now.

You decided to live in the walled garden, your words, but now youve decided that you want that opened. Sorry but you and everyone else knew what you were buying into.

USBC is indeed just a connector as EU has found out. The change was about compatible power supplies. Supposedly to reduce waste (and junking all Lightning connectors in effect). But people are claiming Apple crippled data transfer speeds. Was not part of the directive.

Not sure what you M1 Air and transfer speeds is about. Over time all Mac hardware evolves be it processor speeds, port speeds or LAN speeds.

Spotify still pay less per play. So you can bet artists are getting less. Why not get the EU to legislate a fair and equal payment? Oh, that would impact Spotify...

And Spotify have a huge number of free accounts, ad supported.
Should Apple and others offer that too? More laws rather than market driven?

The way Spotify behaves the more I want to stop my paid subscription.
If Apple sort out their playlist import to Apple Music, I will be trying it see how it goes.
And revert my Spotify to a free account for emergency use.
I'm tired of them not delivering the long promised better highres audio.

Perhaps others will do the same as more people seem to now be aware and hate their business behaviour ...

 

[tehabe]

So you are making Apple create a new more open version with possible security holes and expect them to fix them later (and no doubt get upset when you are inconveniences or lose money or personal data is breached).

That is the thing, if opening up iOS will make iOS insecure it wasn't secure to begin with. If Apple's statements are correct, I'm worried about the state of it now.

How will opening it up make it a better OS? It's working quite well now.

I don't want quite well, I want the best. And usually that is what Apple's benchmark was but for iOS it seems, it is not.

You decided to live in the walled garden, your words, but now youve decided that you want that opened. Sorry but you and everyone else knew what you were buying into.

And that statement is one reason, why we can't have nice things. It is frustrating. And again, I think it is embarrassing that Apple needed government intervention to open up iOS.

 

[wbeasley]

That is the thing, if opening up iOS will make iOS insecure it wasn't secure to begin with. If Apple's statements are correct, I'm worried about the state of it now.


I don't want quite well, I want the best. And usually that is what Apple's benchmark was but for iOS it seems, it is not.


And that statement is one reason, why we can't have nice things. It is frustrating. And again, I think it is embarrassing that Apple needed government intervention to open up iOS.

This is just getting silly now.

Is anyone complaining about security issues currently? Data and payments are working.

“I want the best”. You have a choice of two main OSes. Do you really think Android is better? If it’s not the Apples is the best.

What are “nice things”?
We have a system that lets you securely and confidently buy apps that have been built and tested and distributed and paid for securely.

You dont want nice things. You want the ability to install nice AND not nice things and that sadly affects all of us.

To use an old Star Trek quote “the needs of the one do not outweigh the needs of the many”. It’s not all about you mate.

 

[tehabe]

This is just getting silly now.

Just now?

Is anyone complaining about security issues currently? Data and payments are working.

About the security content of iOS 17.3 and iPadOS 17.3 – Apple Support (UK)

This document describes the security content of iOS 17.3 and iPadOS 17.3.

support.apple.com

“I want the best”. You have a choice of two main OSes. Do you really think Android is better? If it’s not the Apples is the best.

iOS was much much better than Android in the past but that gap has become smaller and in some areas Android is better today. Like having a robust security to allow sideloading and third party app stores apparently.

What are “nice things”?
We have a system that lets you securely and confidently buy apps that have been built and tested and distributed and paid for securely.

No, we don't. A lot of scam apps are getting through the review. Fake apps getting through. Also I don't think security should rely on review by Apple, iOS should be secure by design. So that it is secure, even if I siedeload apps or use a third party app store.

You dont want nice things. You want the ability to install nice AND not nice things and that sadly affects all of us.

No.

To use an old Star Trek quote “the needs of the one do not outweigh the needs of the many”. It’s not all about you mate.

It is hubris to think you are the majority. Most people never thought about it and most people don't really care about it. It is a small group of loyal Apple subjects, nerds, geeks, and bored people who are hoping for a dopamin push who care about this. Most normal people will make up their mind about it when it is available and they see what is offered and how.

I'm most annoyed by the patronising narrative Apple is using about the DMA. And again, I don't even know if I would install or use an third party app store or sideload an app but I think it would make iOS a better platform if that option exist.

 

[treacher]

We stand united against change.

 

[wbeasley]

Yes! We are the Borg. You will be assimilated.

Although ironically your one-man crusade seems to be weighing on (weighing down?) the hearts and minds here; keep up the cause. 🤖

(is there a cause? I think it's already too late)

There are plenty of us who dont want this change.
Or flip it, how many are asking for it? A handful ...

Plenty of app devs supporting the current store even at 30% commission.
People that actually make money and a living from it.
They're happy.

You didnt get what you wanted and thought the EU were going to deliver.
So it's not at all too late.

 

[cupcakes2000]

(and many others by comments on here)

Not sure about ‘many others’ - it’s basically 30 pages of you

 

[wbeasley]

Just now?

About the security content of iOS 17.3 and iPadOS 17.3 – Apple Support (UK)

This document describes the security content of iOS 17.3 and iPadOS 17.3.

support.apple.com

iOS was much much better than Android in the past but that gap has become smaller and in some areas Android is better today. Like having a robust security to allow sideloading and third party app stores apparently.


No, we don't. A lot of scam apps are getting through the review. Fake apps getting through. Also I don't think security should rely on review by Apple, iOS should be secure by design. So that it is secure, even if I siedeload apps or use a third party app store.


No.


It is hubris to think you are the majority. Most people never thought about it and most people don't really care about it. It is a small group of loyal Apple subjects, nerds, geeks, and bored people who are hoping for a dopamin push who care about this. Most normal people will make up their mind about it when it is available and they see what is offered and how.

I'm most annoyed by the patronising narrative Apple is using about the DMA. And again, I don't even know if I would install or use an third party app store or sideload an app but I think it would make iOS a better platform if that option exist.

If you think the regular phone using public are worried about this and asking for it... LOL.

When I supported a work app, a large number of users didnt even know they password to their ID. Their kids set up the account. The rest were wary about installing apps and needed reassurance. Some even killed the app after every use regularly. (This caused lots of issues as reception where they worked wasnt great and the app never got to sync their data and clock ins because they killed it before it had a chance).

Most phone users don't even reboot when they have an issue.

This is the level of tech knowledge we live with. Readers on here are obviously better informed but we are not the public. Most of them need to be protected from doing silly things like clicking an email link and installing an app (yes, many Android users do it - one who brought our work email system down repeatedly).

If Android is not better then maybe it's time you moved there. Use it how you like and hopefully it lets you do all the wonderful things you feel you need to. The things nasty Apple wont let you.

I do not see how an alt app store makes iOS better in any way except creating a possible hack route and more issues for family and friends and businesses who support users.

 

[wbeasley]

Not sure about ‘many others’ - it’s basically 30 pages of you

sorry for answering you every time then...

you obviously gloss over the app devs who are happy with how they system currently works. There are many.

 

[wbeasley]

Not sure about ‘many others’ - it’s basically 30 pages of you

how does your post in anyway address the topic being discussed?

seems like yet another angle of personal attack rather than discussing "

Apple Says Spotify Wants 'Limitless Access' to App Store Tools Without Paying"​

 

[treacher]

There really are a lot of developers!

 

[tehabe]

If you think the regular phone using public are worried about this and asking for it... LOL.

I think you should begin to read what I'm writing. And again, nobody knows how this will work out a year or two in the future.

I doubt that third party app stores or sideloading will become a security nightmare for regular users. I also doubt third party app store will a quick success story. but some might find their niche over time.

And for those who don't want them, they are free to ignore them. They only have to live with the knowledge that their comfortable walled garden has some doors now, which they actually have the keys to. Unlike before were the doors were hidden and only Apple had the keys.

 

[wbeasley]

I think you should begin to read what I'm writing. And again, nobody knows how this will work out a year or two in the future.

I doubt that third party app stores or sideloading will become a security nightmare for regular users. I also doubt third party app store will a quick success story. but some might find their niche over time.

And for those who don't want them, they are free to ignore them. They only have to live with the knowledge that their comfortable walled garden has some doors now, which they actually have the keys to. Unlike before were the doors were hidden and only Apple had the keys.

believe me i have read your words, repeatedly, and you dont seem to read what I respond with and understand that the changes you want affect every single iOS user even if they choose to stay within the walled garden. we dont get a choice. iOS is being modified for everyone.

how hard it is to understand?

there is one version of iOS going out to everyone. parts will be opened to EU users. but the code will be in every OS update. the doors, as you put it, can be opened by EU users but who is to say someone wont pick those locks?

nothing is 100% secure as we've seen again and again.

you even admit the alt app store is a niche thing. and may not succeed.

the risks seem to outweigh the benefits significantly for the majority of iPhone users.

 

[cupcakes2000]

believe me i have read your words, repeatedly, and you dont seem to read what I respond with and understand that the changes you want affect every single iOS user even if they choose to stay within the walled garden. we dont get a choice. iOS is being modified for everyone.

how hard it is to understand?

there is one version of iOS going out to everyone. parts will be opened to EU users. but the code will be in every OS update. the doors, as you put it, can be opened by EU users but who is to say someone wont pick those locks?

nothing is 100% secure as we've seen again and again.

you even admit the alt app store is a niche thing. and may not succeed.

the risks seem to outweigh the benefits significantly for the majority of iPhone users.

If you don’t download, install and use a different AppStore, then there is no possible way they can affect you.

Especially if you don’t even live in an area where they’re available.

You’re spreading fud at this point.