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And if I remember right, the processors last year had worse, or the same iGPU (or maybe they didn't have any iGPUs at all?).
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What? My 2013 rMBP is retina and has a SSD. What do you mean Apple could give us retina and SSD to begin with? They already have.

Having 32GB on a laptop is just ridiculous. What do you need that much for? Just get a desktop or a workstation instead.
I was referring to the iMacs with soldered ram, 5400 rpm drives
 
They say life is a circle , this all happened before - under Sculley's tenure , Tim remind me of Sculley - and that's not meant as a compliment ..

Jobs gone they decided to go all out for the $$$ , macs were outrageously expensive in the late 80's early 90's as they eschewed market share in favour of profit ....

Look how that ended up
 
Exceptional success only happens in exceptional cases. You cannot simply create it by throwing money at it.

How about talent and expertise? That's part of the "massive resources" at Apple's disposal that I was referencing.
I get that Apple was clever to put effort into dressing up the AppleWatch with it's emphasis on bands and finishes and they apparently spent a lot of time on it. But, to be honest, it was like putting lipstick on a pig for the initial entry level models.
To me the initial iPhone exceed expectations but the the AppleWatch? Not so much.
 
Tim remind me of Sculley - and that's not meant as a compliment ..
Totally agreed. You need passion for the product, without considering every bit of your stupid supply chain.
It seems to me that todays Apple simply delays products until the components can be sourced as cheap as possible.

Jobs would have said to Intel "Just build me an awesome Chip."
That's why they switched away from PowerPC.
TC's Apple seems to follow hardware availability, which is not innovation.
Even with an OLED bar and Touch ID, it needs something that makes working with it far more exciting.
(Let's say, a high-end GPU with good quality drivers. Just as an example.)
 
I was referring to the iMacs with soldered ram, 5400 rpm drives

Apple deserves a ton of grief over things like this. It's a total disservice to their customers. The spinning hard drive is an anachronism for the most part. This from the company that was among the first to drop things like Optical drives, etc.
It almost seems meant to not just to preserve margins but to force people to buy more expensive machines. It's similar to auto companies forcing you to "up-buy" to get options that you want.
 
Having 32GB of RAM on a laptop is just ridiculous. What do you need that much for? Just get a desktop or a workstation instead.

Maybe it's ridiculous to you, but not to others. I've had RAM warnings while running Photoshop, After Effects and Safari simultaneously (on a 2015 MBP 15"). At least Apple can restore the ability to access the SODIMM sockets instead of welding everything together. Single 16GB DDR4 chips have been available to the market since last year. I'd rather have that over a nerfed thin-thinner-thinnest "Pro" device anyday.
 
Maybe it's ridiculous to you, but not to others. I've had RAM warnings while running Photoshop, After Effects and Safari simultaneously (on a 2015 MBP 15"). At least Apple can restore the ability to access the SODIMM sockets instead of welding everything together. Single 16GB DDR4 chips have been available to the market since last year. I'd rather have that over a nerfed thin-thinner-thinnest "Pro" device anyday.

And the processors they have today can only support 16GB. The newer processors took a VERY long time to come out with decent iGPU that the laptops need. Like I said, blame Intel for this issue.
 
Regarding more RAM: You have to understand that more RAM is beneficial even if you don't use it.
Modern CPU (or MMU to be exact), map address spaces to processes.
If you do not have enough RAM and you switch tasks, the CPU has to remap the process' address space over and over.
Even if you don't use 32GB of RAM, each process can map it without the need to reshuffle.
Maybe someone understood what I was trying to say.
 
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FWIW, if you really need a laptop (keyboard, touchpad, multitasking, extensive filesystem access, software development, OS X and many of the OS X-based commercial packages), then you're not really the target market for "iPad to replace desktop".

I'm certainly not in the target market for iPad to replace desktop. But since Apple is no longer interested in making desktops or laptops at all, that means I'm no longer in the target for Apple. My computer eco-system is centred on my computer; no Mac = no Apple products at all for me.

Now multiply me by even 10% of Apple's customer base, and is that really a bridge Timmy wants to burn to chase a crashing market (tablets)?

The bar used to be, "well, if you exclusively do light web and email use, maybe an iPad is sufficient". That covered some people. That bar has been slowly creeping higher, and now more people fit.

I don't see the bar any higher than the original iPad. Lack of mouse/trackpad and large screen really limits the device to light content consumption.

I (and most people judging my the market collapse of tablets) really don't see the point of a tablet. If i'm out doing stuff, the tablet is too big to carry around. If I'm at home, I've got my laptop anyway, so why would I also buy a tablet for use at home that does a fraction of what my laptop does?

It also depends on how a laptop (or laptop replacement) fits into the picture for each individual - if you mainly use a desktop and have the laptop for coffee shops and travel, then the iPad is getting better.

When i go to a coffee shop, there's typically 20-30 people there and maybe 2-3 on laptops (and 10-15 on cell phones). This image of everyone sitting in a coffee shop doing their facebook, etc, is really just a myth.

And when i travel my iPad (iPad 4 and absolutely the lat iPad I will ever own) stays at home because it's too bulky and the macbook comes with. The macbook at least makes it easy to backup all my pictures every night. And before you suggest the cloud, I travel by ship. Internet in the middle of the ocean is surprisingly expensive.
 
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And the processors they have today can only support 16GB.

Not true. 32GB fitted Dell XPS 9550 models work just fine.

The newer processors took a VERY long time to come out with decent iGPU that the laptops need.

What's with the iGPU? F_ck the iGPU. People neither want nor care for an iGPU when buying a Pro device (especially when maxing it out). We want a strong dGPU. It's not like the MBP's GPUs work synergistically either (unless you tweak the BIOS at your own risk and still I reckon that workaround applies on desktop only). Personally, I've deactivated the "Auto graphics switching" too because frankly I don't care about battery life all that much as long as I can get the job done.
 
Well, at least Apple is admitting they have a problem, now its time to enter the 12 step program, stop the denial, and realize that all of Apple's innovation came from Steve Jobs and they might be in for some problems in the near future if all they keep doing is just tweak products created by Steve Jobs. Time for Tim Cook and Apple to step out of Steve's shadow and, for better or worse, start trying out new ideas and designs that might not all succeed, but will breath life and innovation back into the company.

Personally right now there is no company more boring than Apple because they are a company that is still marvelling about 7 year old products that haven't changed significantly over the last few generations.
 
What's with the iGPU? F_ck the iGPU.
Yes. Absolutely. You share space on the die, you share the memory bus, and you need the pins on the CPU package to expose all of that BS.
I really hate iGPU's as well.
If you want to build a really low-power package with CPU/GPU look at the iOS Axx chips.
They are better (compared to how they are integrated) than anything Intel has baked into their Chips.

The flipside is that everyone pays Intel, even if they do not want these components.
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Well, at least Apple is admitting they have a problem
Where the F did they do that???
They constantly tell you to buy an iPad Pro because it's the computer of tomorrow.
But they havae no clue about how to improve iOS without copying MS.
To work professionally you need to be able to switch and rearrange some kind of windows.
Not the "split view" thing Apple wants us to accept.
Also, the whole Springboard and App Switching c oncept is totally BS on a 12" device with so much power.
If iOS would not suck in that regard, the iPad would outsell even smaller MacBooks,
But it doesn't because Apple has no idea about desktop software,
 
They blew it when they Fired Scott Forstall.

He is apple's last chance , in many ways he's the next Steve Jobs , Steve even groomed him to be his successor..

Who knows what could happen in the future !???
 
They blew it when they Fired Scott Forstall.
Yes. He probably was hard to work with, but he had the technical understanding.
Today most of what you see, Music, Emoji, etc. is all based on marketing.

The single App concept is really good for phones, but totally broken for tablets.
And a floating video overlay will not fix that.

EDIT: Oh. I'd like to add that the iPad has more screen space and way better input with touch and the pencil to even be more productive than the MacBook.
If you could pair a bluetooth keyboard and have a desktop like environment, it'd be great.
 
IMHO...

Apple did so well because Jobs was a CEO with very little technical or manufacturing knowledge, but who hired people who did (like Forestall and Cook).

Jobs could demand something ridiculous because he had no idea how hard or expensive it was to do. He was the ultimate power user: someone who could demand pie in the sky changes, and yet also say NO to confusing extra models or features.

Now Apple is run by someone who's good at manufacturing, and is more about team playing. Welcome to typical corporate design by committee and playing it safe. Apple will still make tons of money, but in a much more boring way.
 
I still recall my 2008 MacBook Pro with the first Intel Core 2 Duo.
It was completely overprized but its quality and performace was nowhere to be found.
Paying premium for exciting hardware was the most important aspect for Apples success.
The problem is that hardware is lacking, as everyone already said 10.000 times.
Apple NEVER was a software or internet services company.
And now it starts to show.
 
Apple is doomed (once again)

"Now that the Apple Macintosh is disappearing as a mass market product, this soap opera will mercifully fade from the headlines. But the lessons remain, and bare heading: inept, amateurish management can ruin the best product and brightest company." -- Bruce Brown, February 1997

Their stock stayed under $2 a share for *8 years* after that story was published. He was absolutely correct. Apple was a curiosity until the iPod, Intel CPUs, and iPhone.
 
If Apple isn't worried about me, the consumer, then I'm REALLY worried about them.

They will not worry about you as long as you keep buying their products. Apple knows that and they will keep squeezing every last cent out of our pockets as long as we dont even consider buying competition.
 
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Starting to find reasons to replace them with non-Apple alternatives - especially on the desktop.
I couldn't agree more, Apple has always been great but they're starting to lag and fall behind the competition, plus I do quite like W10 but OS X, I love it just give me the hardware!
 
IMHO...

Apple did so well because Jobs was a CEO with very little technical or manufacturing knowledge, but who hired people who did (like Forestall and Cook).

Jobs could demand something ridiculous because he had no idea how hard or expensive it was to do. He was the ultimate power user: someone who could demand pie in the sky changes, and yet also say NO to confusing extra models or features.

Now Apple is run by someone who's good at manufacturing, and is more about team playing. Welcome to typical corporate design by committee and playing it safe. Apple will still make tons of money, but in a much more boring way.


I think this really sums up the current state at Apple. SJ was able to motivate his people with his "reality distortion field" to innovate and improve. IMO, some of the blame should be aimed at Jony Ive. The preoccupation with thinner and lighter rests on his shoulders. Additionally, Ive seems to be more concerned with producing products for the luxury market, e.g., the Apple Watch, than designing the next breakthrough product.

Full disclosure: I own two Apple Watches and really like them. IMO, there is a future for wearables in NFC, health, etc., as tools, not fashion statements.
 
Apple flourished under Cook. This is a hard fact, not an opinion.
Well, their profit did. The products hardly.

These days Apple seems focused solely on their iPhone/iPad business, positioned themselves firmly in the "fashion tech" segment (emotional purchases make most money), and really, only the iPhone business seems to do very well. And apart from making it faster/bigger, there's hardly any generational jump in terms of technology. It's just basic product iteration, hardly anything to get excited about.

If you think about it, it's crazy that Apple doesn't offer anything worthwhile to upgrade my 2011 Air for. The PC product line is pretty bad: old display technology (Air), form factor and spec well behind the competitors' (Macbook Pro), or just shiny computing rubbish (the new Macbook). I don't understand how the other companies sell rMB-like computers with i7s while Apple ships theirs with a Core M.

People, you need to blame Intel for this. I am so sick of people treating like the newest processors are 300% improvement and apple is just sitting there doing nothing. I am extremely disappointed in my custom built PC. It has 3.3 Ghz while my Mac Pro has 3.33 Ghz. Yet my processor is newer and I do not notice that much of a difference. They are both 6-cores. I spent a good amount of money on the newer 6-core processor with very little gain.
I can't blame Intel when Dell makes a 1.29kg, Air-like form factor, 13" XPS with i7 Skylake and 16Gb RAM sold here for CHF1799 (developer model) while Apple sells their chunky 1.58kg 13" Macbook Pro with 5th gen i5 with 8Gb RAM for CHF1949. No wonder the sales have plummeted.

Either way, I will upgrade this year. If Apple is not in the laptop business anymore, I'll switch.
 
The single App concept is really good for phones, but totally broken for tablets.
And a floating video overlay will not fix that.
Not sure I agree with this. You can use the classic Windows desktop on Microsoft's Surface tablets, but it's not exactly a great experience (and almost impossible to operate without the stylus or attached keyboard with touchpad). There is a reason why Microsoft bolted the "Modern" UI onto Windows, which has obviously borrowed a lot from iOS in this respect (being primarily full- and split-screen with gesture control). The fundamental issue appears to be that classic window-based UIs aren't really suitable for touchscreen operation without a stylus.
EDIT: Oh. I'd like to add that the iPad has more screen space and way better input with touch and the pencil to even be more productive than the MacBook.
If you could pair a bluetooth keyboard and have a desktop like environment, it'd be great.
It sounds like you really want Windows 10. Personally, while much improved over Windows 8, I find it very awkward to use in tablet mode. It has a split personality and doesn't really know what it wants to be.
 
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I highly doubt that. Kaby Lake in the version Apple wants won't very likely come before next year.

...but could also be the difference between a MacBook Pro with a very apple-y clean 4xUSB-C/TB3 port design and a compromise with either 2xTB3/USB-C only (not enough for a "pro" machine) or keeping a thicker case to accommodate a 'port salad' of USB-A/HDMI/MiniDP etc.

When has Apple let one of its main product lines, MBPs, left un-updated for close to two years?

Ask again in 8 month's time... Seriously - its already bad: although I've been pointing out the role of the Intel delays and the need to ensure comparisons with competitors are truly like-with-like, no updates to the flagship Mac for over a year doesn't look good in any language.

I don't really buy the Sierra argument (ie, that new MBPs are delayed because they need software features that only exist in Sierra)

Hard to say without knowing the changes: in the past, Apple have released new Macs before the new OS with just a minor point release update to deal with the new hardware. However, some changes could be too fundamental for a point release: for example - just speculating - introducing Touch ID (along with the whole iDevice-like secure enclave gubbins) could require a major change to the OS X security model.

That said - yes, it could be that something (including availability of the right CPUs in quantity) made them just miss the WWDC announcement deadline, which could have made them push the launch back until after "back to school" season etc.
 
What's with the iGPU? F_ck the iGPU. People neither want nor care for an iGPU when buying a Pro device (especially when maxing it out). We want a strong dGPU.
Different needs. For what I do with my laptops, I have no use for a dGPU as long as the iGPU can drive a large external monitor without lag. So I much prefer the battery life improvements afforded by an iGPU.
 
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I'm fairly young on OS X (started on Leopard), but it seems like things never went as bad as when I updated to El Capitan. It's just frustrating.

The reason so many people have issues with El Cap is because of SIP/rootless. Locking down the hard drive breaks a lot of apps. It also screws up drivers that need deeper access to the system. IMHO it will be a while before it 'just works.'

I suspect the new  file system has a lot to do with making Mac's work while also allowing Apple to keep complete control over the root.
 
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