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You are moving the goal post. You gave a generic argument and I gave a generic response. If you wanted specifics you should have asked for them.

Hardly. There’s usually a reason people avoid naming specific Apps as someone will point out the flaw with using that particular App as an example.

If a developer doesn’t have an App for iOS then why should we compromise the security/privacy of a billion users by opening up iOS instead of just asking the developer to bring their App over? Or make their service available via a web page?

As I’ve pointed out before, the adult entertainment industry has no problems making their content available to all devices via a web browser. Apple doesn’t restrict what sites you visit with Safari.
 
Macrumors is a site dedicated to hardcore Apple fans. Of course it skews in Apple's favor. It's frustrating to see people advocating for reduced options on hardware they own, falling mostly uncritically for Apple's claims, but not at all surprising.

Try looking at the response in a brand-agnostic forum that skews towards more technical users, who understand the real world implications, including security, privacy, and the economics of the App Store.

Personally, I'd love a viable alternative that offered Apple's quality without the locked down ecosystem, but the economics mean that any serious competitor to Apple and Google is simply not viable unless legal steps were taken to break up that duopoly. This lawsuit could have been one way to open up a crack in the current status quo.

Having two entrenched competitors with little reason to open up their ecosystems and every reason to lock them down harder (see: Google's recent steps towards controlling "sideloaded" app installation) helps no one.

Reading threads like this feels a little like being told we have the choice between Coke and Pepsi, and the fact that people ultimately go with one or the other means they must obviously be all in favor of their caffeinated, sweet, citrus-cinnamon flavored carbonated beverage of choice.

For an Apple site MR has a lot of users complaining about the iPhone/Apple and extolling the virtues of Android. Those are who I’m referring to.

And there it is. The condescending post telling me to listen to “technical users” by rehashing the myth that Apple users (and MR posters) are simple minded and non-technical.

I develop for Android and iOS. I’m about as technical a user as you can get. And I’m opposed to opening The App Store. Mainly because as a developer I can think of countless ways to abuse a third party store and compromise the privacy/security of users.

What I find amazing is people who claim to write code or understand security state unequivocally that third party stores don’t reduce privacy/security and users who stick with The App Store won’t be affected anyway.
 
What an intentionally obtuse take.

What these people want isn't to make iPhone like Android — something which, by the way, is not really going to help much considering steps Google is taking to lock down its own store.

That's pure fear mongering. Google isn't going to prevent all other stores from being installed on Android.

What they want is Apple's software and hardware quality with the ability to use apps of their own choosing, just like everyone gets on macOS.

I want Playstation's operating system and hardware but to be able to use the Xbox Game Pass on my Playstation. That's not going to happen because that would be incredibly unfair for Sony to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D just so that Microsoft gets the software/service profits.

You don't get to pick and choose features of a product. You get to vote with your wallet on what product deserves your hard earn money and if it doesn't have the features you want, you don't buy it and Apple will respond with a better product. That's how it works.

Seriously. If opening up iOS software installation to third parties is such a problem, where is that problem causing harm to macOS users?
What's the problem in choosing Android over iOS in the first place? Not worse than the problem of opening up third party stores on a locked down system I bet.
 
And yet, in civilized communities, we advocate for public transit to the benefit of all.

A civilized person wouldn't move in and be surprised that there isn't good public transit.

That is the point of regulation and collective action.

A better point would be to do your research before moving. I enjoy driving my car around. Should I move to a place where public transit made driving my personal car extremely problematic? Nope. I don't want to walk 10 minutes to the parking lot, to get someone to fetch my car, tip him, then drive to another parking structure, pay $15 just to park, get lunch, then drive back to the parking lot and have someone park it away at a lot that costs me an arm and a leg monthly.

I'm not going to advocate a reduction in funding public transit. I'd simply move to a place where my car can be used hassle free and where my tax dollars isn't over spent on public transit I'm never going to use.

The fact that someone bought an iPhone doesn't mean they have to agree with every aspect of how the platform operates.


When someone buys a product, they agree with the upfront limitations. So unless they've been lied to, they should not be asking lawmakers to change the product itself to their liking.
 
And yet, in civilized communities, we advocate for public transit to the benefit of all.

That is the point of regulation and collective action. Because without these things, those with the means can and will lock people into arrangements which benefit them, leaving people the choice of bad or worse.

The fact that someone bought an iPhone doesn't mean they have to agree with every aspect of how the platform operates. The fact that someone bought an iPhone means they looked at the options, made a judgement call, and decided it offered the best compromise.
Maybe some bought an iPhone because they wanted something secure and free from the viruses, trojans and other malware that PC's suffered greatly from.
 
A good thing. Apple offers a closed system, while its competitors offer an open one. Each has its advantages and drawbacks, and customers should be free to choose which one they prefer. If developers aren't happy with Apple, they can just develop for the other system. It reminds me of developer Squaresoft switching from Nintendo to Sony consoles in the 1990s. The main reason was hardware issues, but there was also dissatisfaction with Nintendo's stricter content policies and higher royalties, not unlike Apple. Although Nintendo enjoyed a large market share, I don't think there was ever any lawsuit against them to force a policy change. Unhappy developers just switched to Sega or Sony and that was that.
 
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I have an app in the iOS and Windows app stores. It's free for Windows users, but paid for iOS users, directly to re-coup the ~$300 in sales I need every year to break even.
What is Apple charging you $300 for? The standard dev fee should only be $99 (it's $299 for Enterpise but only if you're distributing proprietary apps to employees - that plan doesn't cover selling apps - that's always covered by the $99 plan).
 
Google wants to certify all apps regardless whether it was delivered by the Play Store, so soon, even switching to Android is not going to make a difference.
Nothing wrong with that. Apple already does this on macOS via a feature called Gatekeeper. It doesn't do this on iOS & iPadOS. The latter two are strictly App Store only.
 
Definitely a win for Apple after fighting for so long. Regulations are forcing Apple to allow downloads from outside App Store and that might continue in many countries.
 
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What an intentionally obtuse take.

What these people want isn't to make iPhone like Android — something which, by the way, is not really going to help much considering steps Google is taking to lock down its own store. What they want is Apple's software and hardware quality with the ability to use apps of their own choosing, just like everyone gets on macOS.

There's always a chorus extolling the harms people will face with an open app ecosystem, yet where are those supposed harms on macOS?

The problem is, how do you quantify the harms faced by users here? How do you quantify the harm of locking users into an ecosystem which doesn't even allow app upgrades, forcing developers who wish to make money into subscription models and predatory in-app purchases? Yes, these are things that began largely with Apple's ecosystem. They've done some work to mitigate this, but still never addressed the underlying deficiency.

How do you quantify the harms caused by locking developers into a model where Apple gets 30% of their profits? Something which, somehow, was never necessary on macOS.

That's the difficulty here. And yet so many are so quick to offer their hot take in support of a locked down ecosystem and what amounts to thinly veiled subscription-based hardware, with little other than Apple's clearly self-serving arguments as support.

Seriously. If opening up iOS software installation to third parties is such a problem, where is that problem causing harm to macOS users? Or, for that matter, Android users — while they still have the option? Seems to me that all the Android malware we hear about either comes via the Play store or in the form of manufacturer-installed bloat/adware.
Yeah, imagine the outrage if Apple suddenly locked macOS down to the App Store. People would lose their minds.

People just want a switch to turn on or off the sandbox. Something like macOS has where I can limit it to signed apps would be even better. I probably wouldn’t use it on my iPhone, but I would on my iPad. Why? Because I’m sure a lot of Mac devs would offer their app for iPad if they could avoid the App Store fee and limitations. One app like that would probably be Panic’s Nova app for web developers. They’ve cited similar reasons for not offering an iPad version. I view the iPad Pro more like a Mac and would love to have full terminal access and everything else opened up.

Apple can leave everything locked down by default and then have a setting slider for advanced users to choose their app security tier and have warning messages and passcode prompts and whatever else to scare away normies.

A lot of the arguments here are that we should just buy Android. We don’t want Android. We can have the best of both worlds. That’s like telling Mac users to just use PCs, but the same problem doesn’t exist there…
 
What is Apple charging you $300 for? The standard dev fee should only be $99 (it's $299 for Enterpise but only if you're distributing proprietary apps to employees - that plan doesn't cover selling apps - that's always covered by the $99 plan).
Apple charges 30%, so $300 in sales is $210. Of that amount, the government wants ~30%. That's $147 left for me. With taxes, Apple takes $106 in my area for the developer account, leaving me with $41 in profit. So my estimate is a little high, but not exceptionally so.
 
14 years!? It’s disgraceful that any court case would take that long. To think a case lingers around someone’s in and outboxes for that period of time is mind boggling. I could be forgiven for being of the impression that the courts drag their heels to maintain paycheques.
 
And yet, in civilized communities, we advocate for public transit to the benefit of all.

That is the point of regulation and collective action. Because without these things, those with the means can and will lock people into arrangements which benefit them, leaving people the choice of bad or worse.

The fact that someone bought an iPhone doesn't mean they have to agree with every aspect of how the platform operates. The fact that someone bought an iPhone means they looked at the options, made a judgement call, and decided it offered the best compromise.
The fact that someone bought an iPhone means they decided it would be a good solution for their needs; if not, they would choose another device.

Don’t like red M&M’s? Don’t eat ‘em. But just because you don’t like red M&M’s doesn’t mean you can take them to court and have smarties included in your bag of M&M’s. If you want Smarties, you buy Smarties.
 
The fact that someone bought an iPhone means they decided it would be a good solution for their needs; if not, they would choose another device.

Don’t like red M&M’s? Don’t eat ‘em. But just because you don’t like red M&M’s doesn’t mean you can take them to court and have smarties included in your bag of M&M’s. If you want Smarties, you buy Smarties.
No, it means it's the best available solution for their needs.

Want pink m&ms? Congratulations, you're probably getting a bag of valentines day m&ms that are half red too.

You might not be able to take Mars to court, but that's because they don't have a monopoly on pink candy covered chocolate. If they did, maybe you could.
 
If there is no class action lawsuit any more, is that really good for Apple? If I understand class action lawsuits right, you have to join the class action and can no longer sue individually. So now many lawsuits can be filed and if most are successful, tons more will follow.

I can't understand why people say "Just move to Android!". That is not now consumer protection works. Android has giant privacy issues and those are also topics of lawsuits. Today the user only has a choice of a company that locks him into an ecosystem and a company who sells his private data. That's a choice between two evils. So courts should make sure that none of that happens. Then the user would have a choice between two good alternatives.
 
Yeah, imagine the outrage if Apple suddenly locked macOS down to the App Store. People would lose their minds.

People just want a switch to turn on or off the sandbox. Something like macOS has where I can limit it to signed apps would be even better. I probably wouldn’t use it on my iPhone, but I would on my iPad. Why? Because I’m sure a lot of Mac devs would offer their app for iPad if they could avoid the App Store fee and limitations. One app like that would probably be Panic’s Nova app for web developers. They’ve cited similar reasons for not offering an iPad version. I view the iPad Pro more like a Mac and would love to have full terminal access and everything else opened up.
There is practically no benefit to working in strictly Nova on an iPad over a Mac. So get a Mac.
 
Funny how you didn’t provide a list of said Apps. Probably some niche use-cases nobody cares about but you want to pretend it’s the end of the world if you can’t use it.
Comments like this make me wonder what would happen if an app like WeChat decided to stop using the AppStore. Would Apple compromise, or would most users switch to Android because the app is basically a necessity in China… if Epic can push the envelope over a nonessential like Fortnite, what about the essentials?
Also, it’s rather dismissive to claim some app being niche means its unavailability doesn’t matter. I’m sure you have some niche interests you’d be annoyed to miss out on.
 
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