No pleasing you MMM ;') Just be thankful that it's been implemented and rather well. Seriously, be happy with it man or sell it. Move on dude!
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Seeds First Beta of tvOS 11.2 to Public Beta Testers
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No pleasing you MMM ;') Just be thankful that it's been implemented and rather well. Seriously, be happy with it man or sell it. Move on dude!
To me, it really is not over priced. 64GB SSD, a10X chip all add up, the quality remote heck, even the lightning cable is included which in the UK has a RRP of £20. I can't see how anyone spending say £3,000 upwards on a OLED TV can find a beautiful box like this at £199 expensive.
It's only been one month since ATV 4K launched and I think Apple has handed everything incredibly well. I look over at BANG&OLUFSEN's forum and there's clueless fools paying £2000 for a real poor quality Android Tablet music streamer. And guess what, three years on and its software still doesn't work properly and that's just a basic audio only tablet with no onboard storage on anything. What's tragic is, it's the same silly guys posting its problems now as it was in January 2015!!!
Things like that really make you realise how damn awesome Apple really is in both the hardware and software of design and implementation AND the speed in which is reacts to problems.
Any way, I hope that you enjoy using it, that it brings a smile to your face and that you see some lovely films (in HD or 4K) with plenty of heartfelt friends over great food and stimulating conversation! That's what movie night is about after all!
Are you saying you can tell the 4th gen ATV to output 24Hz over HDMI? Considering I owned one, and was annoyed it didn't support the output, you're going to have to offer up a few more words to provide a more convincing argument.
Shouldn't be, but it isn't an option on either model to output at 24Hz over HDMI when outputting 1080p for me. For some reason, Apple only enabled 24Hz over HDMI for 4K output on the Apple TV 4K.
You are reading the list wrong if you are referring to their 2017 model list:
- 37 Models
- 14 can detelecine 3:2 pulldown in 60i or 60p correctly
- 23 cannot detelecine any 60i or 60p signal correctly
- 9 can't even handle a 24p native signal properly.
The other problem is that the listing is only 37 models, which doesn't tell us much about the actual TVs in people's homes. If your TV is older than a couple years, odds are even better that your set cannot detelecine 60i/p correctly. If you have a 120/240Hz set, you at least have good odds of handling 24p native content properly.
And to top it off, such granular data doesn't even tell us how well that particular model handles detelecine from 60i/p. The model I have will do it, but can introduce smoothing artifacts (Soap Opera Effect) in the process. Feeding it 24p from the Apple TV vs 60p from the Apple TV makes a difference in the amount of smoothing I have to use, and the amount of 3:2 pulldown judder that remains.
Amazon's video compression algorithms are terrible. I only watch shows on there if they aren't available anywhere else.
You say “no” and then challenged a point that I already agreed to. Yes it should have been there, but the question was about how long it took to address the issue after the outcry. I feel the responsed very timely.
[doublepost=1509580648][/doublepost]
The testing explicitly has motion interpolation disabled and is an objective test recording the actual output. I need to put some faith in these results, but they are a generally reputable site.
As for the count, 14 can compensate for judder if setup correctly, 14 need to be set manually by the device, and 9 won’t benefit in any scenario (most like locked 60hz displays that will introduce 3:2 even on 24hz source material). By that count with this sample set of displays 37% of the tested screens will actually benefit from changing to 24hz.
Regardless of how you slice the data, for large numbers of user, this setting won’t improve the quality of the output and instead will introduce frequent wasted mode switching.
That all said, my point is that users should know what their specific TVs if they want the best results.
Last edited:
Right, and that's what I'm getting at -- if Apple is implementing native format match, then inevitably there will be 1080p 24Hz movies it will have to match format to, which means they have to add that capability whether they allow the customer to manually switch into it or not -- or they'll be misrepresenting the feature, since it won't match native formats for every source it receives.
Putting the best possible spin on this, Apple ran into a problem just before launch with their auto switching features and pulled it (I do not believe for a minute that Apple only just added the feature to its 2nd update ONLY after the first negative reviews came out), among which was the planned inclusion of 1080p 24Hz to accommodate automatic switching for all common source formats. Indeed, this may be one of the hangups for the delay in the Amazon app. It may be entirely Apple's fault that the Amazon app hasn't been released, because the auto switching doesn't work properly with their app, among other concerns.
This is a pretty massive fix, frankly. This cures most of the issues I had with the Apple TV. Although now I need to see if it will finally function with my Samsung soundbar. As of yet, it hasn't played movie content through the soundbar (it'll do DTV Now just fine, though, for some reason).
The simple reason why this works is that 120 is divisible by 24 whereas 60 is not.
Unfortunately, that feature isnt that basic.
Fire TV, Nividia Shield, Chromecast...all these devices dont have an automatic framerate switching feature.
I can assure everyone that with the Apple TV 4k model the native frame rate option works with a 1080p Tv. It was cool last night using that mode on my Panasonic plasma tv. I noticed the 24hz working with Netflix and the Apple Trailers app.
Even with the latest PB update , my 4th generation Apple TV does not list the option for native frame rate.
Even with the latest PB update , my 4th generation Apple TV does not list the option for native frame rate.
All I know is my Sony running Android TV OS does it. If my Android smart TV does it, then the ATV 4K surely should.
Too bad about the 4th gen. But, does the 1080p 24hz option now appear in the ATV 4K format options? And you're saying it works with a 1080p TV, does that mean on a 4K TV when the source is 1080p 24Hz, that's how it will be sent to the TV? Or will the ATV 4K upscale it to 4K 24Hz?
Any likelihood that Apple may bring this feature to Apple TV 4th Gen in a future beta?
My 11 year old PS3 can autoswitch from 60hz to 24hz...
My 11 year old PS3 can autoswitch from 60hz to 24hz...
In the Apple TV 4k screen resolution menu, you still need to select 1080p 60hz but you need to make sure the Native Adjustment option is "On" and 24hz content will be sent to the 1080p tv as 24hz. I can only comment on 1080p resolution since that is the maximum resolution my Panasonic plasma can display.
You compare a TV with a media player? I compared the Apple Tv with other Media Players. But yes, of course its a feature that every media player should have out of the box.
"Inevitably there will be" seems like an odd choice of words. Since all the downloadable movies from Apple in HD format are 24fps native already. What the beta has been doing for me is that if I have a 24fps video streaming from Apple, Netflix, my computer, etc, it switches to 4k @ 24Hz, and then back. Doesn't matter if the video is 720p, 1080p or 4k. Upscaling is a much easier problem to solve well than motion cadence.
A TV doesn't have to HDMI handshake with itself to switch framerates, which is a giant PITA. HDMI handshaking in general took years to get to the "it almost always just works" state it is now, as long as you ignore CRC and ARC. Built-in apps get an advantage here, because you can output straight to the processing chips onboard and call it a day. There's a reason why there are few streaming/gaming boxes that output 24Hz over HDMI at all, or only do so in very specific situations (like in a Blu-ray app).
Now, once HDMI 2.1 becomes ubiquitous, this particular problem will probably go away as a streaming box could use VFR to achieve the framerate switching.
Why would "all the downloadable movies" be 24fps natively, if they weren't shot or mastered in 24fps? As far as upscaling, I don't want the ATV doing it. From my observations, my Sony 900E does a much better job of upscaling content than the ATV 4K does. I also want to be able to control certain picture settings on my TV which can't be adjusted with a 4K signal. So you're saying it does not switch into 1080p 24Hz? So it isn't truly matching native content then, only frame rate?
Find me a film actually shot in anything other than 24fps (Ignoring The Hobbit). It's possible, but not even remotely common. Uncommon enough that I've not encountered one in my years of collecting and ripping Blu-Rays for streaming inside my home network.
The film industry has been on 24fps for ages. Even most TV shows are shot at 24, not 30fps (although in PAL regions, 25fps is common for TV). 30/60fps is not a standard that has enjoyed much support when it comes to content creation, primarily content broadcast. Soap Operas are a notable exception.
I actually just watched Interstellar last night streamed from my iMac to the TV. My copy is 1080p, and it played back at 4k @ 24Hz according to my TV. At least it turned off HDR, I think.
For 480p/720p content, I'd agree that certain TVs are better off doing the upscaling. But unfortunately, with 1080p content, at least for my 65" at ~8ft, while I enjoy the HDR benefits, 4K by itself hasn't really been a big jump, and upscaling 1080p on the TV vs Apple TV seems to be minor enough that the quality of the source is the bigger problem, IMO. But I also tend to turn off a lot of the processing in my Sony set to avoid TV-driven over-sharpening or other artifacts during processing. It also tends to turn off some of the things that makes the TV's upscaler look better, so YMMV.
Having used the feature for a few days now I can definitely see Apple's reasoning for leaving it out and now off by default. It really is inelegant. The switching often cuts off the first half second or so of audio and I get the no signal message up far too often. It's nice that it's there though. Native framerate looks best. Also keeps upscaled 4K rather than switching to native 1080p like I feared.
Still outputting way too hot stereo sound though. I fear this might just be my device since I don't see anyone else reporting it.
Still outputting way too hot stereo sound though. I fear this might just be my device since I don't see anyone else reporting it.
I agree mode switching should be minimized where possible. After decades of being exposed to content with judder, some people cant even see it anymore. But if you are thinking about enabling frame rate switching, check if it is required or even helps on your screen. Many TVs can automatically detect 3:2 pull down in the 60hz feed and compensate for the judder, giving you the same end result as a 24hz feed(check your settings). Other TVs have a fixed 60hz refresh on the panel and are not capable of displaying 24hz at all even if the feed is 24hz, resulting in just adding the judder back in.
Even if the setting does benefit on your TV, bare in mind the UI impact before making your choice.
In the end there will be a lot of enthusiastic folks saying that everyone should enable it. Do your homework and make the choice yourself.
This is really the only point that needs to be made here. Apple is offering a box that will be used on a wide variety of 4K TVs, which are going to handle video signals quite differently. Apple's one-size-fits-all philosophy is not going to work here. Until Apple offers their own TV panel, they can't begin to presume to control the entire experience from the streamer box. And I don't think they ever did. My guess is, considering how fast they implemented auto-switching into a public beta after release, that this was always planned for launch, just like the Amazon app and Dolby Atmos., and in typical Apple fashion they pulled it for whatever reason just before launch. This is the first Apple product in a while I can recall was seemingly launched mostly with desirable features it will have, versus features it does have.
The Apple TV is much more than downloadable movies from iTunes. It's a streamer box first and foremost, for services that are far from consistent. I'm not going to debate settings and perceptions of individual TVs with you, because your sensitivities are not necessarily going to be the same as mine -- this is all very subjective stuff. The bottom line is for everyone ... YMMV. The ATV should, and now does offer auto-switching, and native format matching, to give customers the option to suit their specific environment and needs. I'm sorry to hear it may not support native 1080p 24Hz output, since my Sony 900E -- with most video processing turned off -- upscales better than the ATV 4K to my eye in direct comparisons. There may be other factors at play too, but who has time to trouble shoot a laundry list of settings in complex TV products -- just flip on native output and don't worry about it. But hey, YMMV.
I wouldn't even call this "typical Apple fashion", I'd call it "meeting a software engineering deadline." At least in today's environment. A bit different than the old days when we had to assume someone who bought our software may never be able to get an update ever, and we may not be able to make small feature additions available to customers easily in a fair way. But bandwidth is cheap these days.
The thing I know Apple has been hammered with is when they miss feature/bullet point X or Y. That's not a new thing for them. What's new here is that Apple is talking about future plans of software updates. Usually they just say nothing and drop it on people when it is ready. In some ways, I wish they would be more like the old Apple on that front.
Honestly, I would not buy any product based on future plans. Those change. As an software engineer myself, I've seen that. Either wait until those plans solidify, or understand you are buying a product with limitations, and making sure you can live with those limitations. I'd also say that the best policy for not getting people's hopes up and getting them to ask "are we there yet?" wrt/future plans is to not share them until you are nearly ready to deliver them and can give a timeline you intend to stick to.
As for Amazon, I'd love to know the politics involved in the silence from both parties. Considering the sort of shots Amazon has fired across Apple's bow in public in the past on this subject, I have a nagging suspicion they are still asking for special treatment of the App Store rules, and asking for an exception, and Apple is saying no.