This is Macrumors. 5 pages of useless and unrelated comments is not unusual.
I came here for the same reaosn...hoping there was feedback and information.
Instead, the same old same old.
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Apple Seeds First OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan Beta to Developers
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I came here for the same reaosn...hoping there was feedback and information.
Instead, the same old same old.
at least we can compare sizes. thx justperry. please keep on posting future package details.
One thing I miss about the old Macintosh way was detailed changelogs. Apple released detailed changelogs with OS X updates until around 10.5/10.6, IIRC. There used to be an incredibly detailed list, separated by application. Would be nice if we knew exactly what was fixed/changed between releases.
Agreed. I don't see the point in yearly releases. If one only needs Apple software then it might have some merits but when third party software are added to the mix its real headache to research all the software and external devices for compatibility before installing newer OS X.
If Apple would change to longer release schedule (2 years) it would likely result in quality improvements there would be less reasons to release half-ready code. OS X is already mature, I don't see need to add more features in a breakneck pace.
As for bug fixes I noticed that Spotlight works slightly better in 10.11.5 than in previous 10.11 versions, not that it can be compared with Mavericks Spotlight which is much more reliable...
I'm hoping Apple manages to fix most of the bugs in 10.11 before they release 10.12 but I'm not exactly impressed that USB isn't as reliable as it should be even after 5 updates...
Another question is that complexity beneficial or something worth to pursue?
I'm probably in the minority because I couldn't care less about iOS, Apple TV etc. I care about a Mac that I can use for my job, it has to be reliable and fast. Yosemite was unbelievable buggy and El Capitan is somewhat better but I don't see many improvements compared to Mavericks (METAL has some potential), instead Apple has removed features (Disk Utility) and hidden others (System Preferences) without any kind logic.
One hopes Apple would provide a option in the installer to select what components / software to install, OS X is starting to resemble a rusty engine given the number of "great new features" = more pointless processes running regardless of users desire...
Agreed. I have reported several bugs that haven't been fixed in almost 2 years, at this point I am starting to wonder if Apple intends to fix them at all.
That is assuming all the software is free. If one needs to purchase updates to third party software or devices "free" OS upgrade is going to be expensive...
I have wondered the same thing myself. Maybe Apple has been too successful for a while and its exec can't no longer see the reality what is OS X?
Agreed. Currently Apple provided information is minimalistic in extreme.
It just appears that Apple is acting more and more like the old PC Windows platform in forcing everyone to be part of their ecosystem. They are still better than Windows but the amount of system resources OSX 10.11.x uses is insane. Sometimes my photo editing programs just lag and lag.... It's getting frustrating...
Wow. Neither that post from @fredr500 nor this post from me discusses what's in the beta. Wow. A more attentive reading of the five pages would have found some on-topic discussion.
Someone an idea when the public beta will appear? Waiting for it this evening. Ready to install and continue the beta road.
[edit] and just a few hours later ... it's available.
[edit] and just a few hours later ... it's available.
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I'm not a registered developer, but wanting to be at the bleeding edge I sometimes torrent the first beta which then triggers the subsequent ones to install the official way. However, in this case I can't find a single post anywhere (not just this forum) which says what's in this beta let alone what it fixes, so I've not bothered. I'm curious what the official developers are meant to concentrate testing on if there are no useful release notes.
If the only things to look at are "make sure what worked before still works" then what's the point? Surely it has to have either fixed something or added something, else why release it?
I have it download ready to install, and I'll probably install it anyway just because. I'll then post to say what it's broken if I find anything broken (as I'm one of the few, it seems, running and enjoying 10.11.5 without issue).
If the only things to look at are "make sure what worked before still works" then what's the point? Surely it has to have either fixed something or added something, else why release it?
I have it download ready to install, and I'll probably install it anyway just because. I'll then post to say what it's broken if I find anything broken (as I'm one of the few, it seems, running and enjoying 10.11.5 without issue).
Without knowing exactly what Apple intends to be the focus of developers, we should (before too long) find open access to what's written by those developers, about the pre-release, in the forums provided by Apple.
I guess:
- either https://forums.developer.apple.com/community/beta/os-x-10116-beta
- or Apple might reuse https://forums.developer.apple.com/community/beta/os-x-10114-beta as it did for OS X 10.11.5 beta.
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I don't think it matters at this point, because now, going from 10.11 to 10.12 is more like getting a new service pack which gradually transforms the os rather than a whole new operating system all at once. I think this works out much better in the long run, because it gives more people a chance to stay up to date without having to deal with tons of incompatibility issues, learning tons of new features or a new interface.
Look at Microsoft and its mess... Always redoing the way Windows works, and then many either don't want to or can't upgrade from the start, and have to suffer once Microsoft starts shoving forced updates down everyone's throats, or stops supporting their 5+ year old operating system.
Ever since I upgraded my Macbook Pro to OSX 10.11.5, the OS would inform me it was having problems connecting to iCloud whenever I started it up, and it would make me manually sign in to iCloud. I tried a number of things to fix that, but none were successful. Tonight I upgraded to the 10.11.6 beta, and the issue seems to be fixed. The OS finally stopped asking me to sign in to iCloud every time I boot up. Thanks Apple ... that issue was really annoying!
I guess you work at Apple and make good money and do not need a stable OS, good modern specs etc. good for you. (Joke of course, don't unlike my comment or report me for being mean..)
This is what many many many people on this site rant about and desire: latest tech, faster, better etc. not "new" features. If you use Apple devices for "fun", yes you are probably "happy", but If you rely on them to eat, then you have reason to voice for improvement when it is not doing what it is suppose to or when things stop production and you don't get paid. I can see that you are one who has taken the "cool aid" and believe being optionated is wrong, but just instead except things as is and is preferred way of looking at things.
Apple Marketing 101 rule: you don't give the customer what they want, you give them what they don't know that they want until you tell them that they want it and have to have it. from The book of proverbs of Steve Jobs. This is the basics class of developmental teaching from Apple when in Jedi training. You never make the thing work, if you do they stop buying the next. Did you miss that or was sleeping during your brain washing Jedi training.
If people get what they want, they will stop spending. If they are satisfied, they will not buy the next version but wait 5 years or so or until it breaks. If I "started" my own company like you said, people would not continue to purchase, but only purchase every five years. Not today's business model and is a road to failure. you keep them Hungary for more. This is Apple isn't it? THAT is why they have the Bucks, ruby, etc.
I agree with you statements mostly, but the "cool aid" don't be opinionated crack or "start your own then" b.s. If you don't like it mentality is asinine. I enjoy Apple products, just want it to be what they have said, "Just Works".
Apple Marketing 101 rule: you don't give the customer what they want, you give them what they don't know that they want until you tell them that they want it and have to have it. from The book of proverbs of Steve Jobs. This is the basics class of developmental teaching from Apple when in Jedi training. You never make the thing work, if you do they stop buying the next. Did you miss that or was sleeping during your brain washing Jedi training.
I'd put this differently: Apple way seems to be "we know what customer wants better then the customer". Its about satisfying (or even creating) needs where one would not suspect them. Customer mass usually lacks fantasy and is easy victim to fashion. Take for example touch screen, which is something often quoted as what customer wants. Why does customer wants it? Because its fancy and looks cool. At the same time, it is an utterly pointless cosmetic feature. One of the reasons why I like Apple is that they resist taking easy solutions, often looking for a better way instead (whether their final solution is indeed better is of course up to debate). In my book, trying to do something new or different is a much more noble approach then "Hey, superhero movies are popular right now, lets just make a random one and make $$$".
I think you are massively underestimating the issue. Satisfying everyone is much more difficult than what you seem to imply. Every major OS on the market is stable enough for the purposes of the overwhelming majority. Yeah, all of them crash occasionally, not a big deal. For every person having WiFi or whatever issues there are hundred more that don't have them.
Furthermore, your criticisms seem to be pointed more towards companies like Parallels or Filemaker Inc. who artificially lock their software to OS X versions in order to force you to buy an upgrade license. To remind you, OS X updates are free. Don't want it, don't get it. It is very strange that you repeatedly speak of 'buying next version' in this context, as if Apple would rely on some mystical revenue generated from OS X
Sorry if I offended you. It seemed as an appropriate response to tone of your messages which read as if you believe to know exactly what the customer needs are and how to satisfy those needs in a precise fashion (I am very doubtful that any of this is even remotely accurate).
I ran 10.11.5 a few times and found the same symptoms, I assumed that it was a side effect of using relatively slow USB 2.0 for the startup volume and home directory.
I ran pre-release 10.11.6 maybe twice and – like @cvilledave – I did not observe the same problem(s). If I recall correctly there was the one-off login-time prompt to use iCloud.
Additionally with 10.11.5 at least once I found System Preferences appearing bad after I tried, failed to use the iCloud pane. This, for example:
Apart from some (very minor) problems with each first version, I never had serious issues with the last 4-5 OSX versions... Is it just me? Am I a lucky guy? Or are some people just obsessed with complaining?
No offense taken. A good debate is always appreciated, especially if one can dialog when there are differences of opinions...though unfortunately if you are not with the majority or the politically correct crowd, it is less tolerated these days on MacRumors.
In fairness to your much appreciated logical debate and explanation, I hope you are correct, but I respectfully disagree with you that Every major OSX released is stable. Maybe in the past, but not lately.
But (an example from your comments), if Apple let's say comes out with a touch screen or some type of hybrid (as a new rumor has suggested lately, i.e. the small LCD Dock) then there may have to be a time of reconsideration of thought and faith on your theories concerning Apple. Apple "is" satisfying the masses, and is why you may have misunderstood and misrepresented my comments. But as far as their OS X segment (which is small on their revenue pie charts), I tend to disagree and I believe they may need to reconsider their direction concerning OS X. Development if they desire to increase that segment.
As I have said previously: if you read these forums, the mass majority here desire for stability over new features. I think I am correct on this statement. If you read other forums and Apple related OS X discussions, I believe I can safely say that they too express the same desires. Should you not count this as the majority of users? unless you believe this is just a tech enthusiast site, which I stand to differ. (now I could be wrong if you know more). If this is true, then "Yes" you can satisfy the majority. Just make a stable OS X first, then add new features.
Windows 10 from what I have read is generally excepted by the public, though their methods of adoption is questionable. Why? It is generally stable now for the user and yes, like OS X, the occasional bugs or crashes do occur, but for a Windows OS and the new built in its first technical year, it is relatively stable for the common user and generally "works", especially with less down time. I am not a fan of Windows and prefer OS X over Windows, so I am not promotion Windows, but these seem to be the facts right now. Just because I critize does not mean I don't appreciate Apple. My criticism Is merely in lines for improvement.
But with Apple and their yearly OS X updates, I have to respectfully disagree also with you about how they expand on the previous built and that the new version is generally better. In theory is should be if they build it from the previous, but with each beta or their official released updates lately, things that worked before now do not and new problems arise more than less, therefore Q.A. should be seriously questioned. I know you will say this is typical development, but I still say the better method is to first fix and seek stability, then the new added addition and toys. My apology for not clearly expressing my train of thought.
Oh, believe me, the grass always looks greener on the other side
I constantly get bashed for daring to support Apple or try to explain what I think what could be the logic behind some of their movesThat is a tricky thing. For example, Snow Leopard is for some reason widely regarded as the 'most stable OS X ever'. However, back than I was using Opera and Thunderbird instead of Safari and Mail. Safari was crashing constantly for me and Mail had major slowdowns and difficulties with supporting gmail. Furthermore, Snow Leopard did not work with my router, forcing me to buy a new one (which was a big deal for me, as I was a student and didn't have much money back then).
All in all, people tend to idealise the past. Nowadays people forget the controversies or known problems with Snow Leopard (like probably the the most dramatic data deletion bugs that an OS X launch ever had on its history). So far, people were complaining about EVERY release. You just can't make everyone happy. I am quite sure that 5 years from now many would remember El Capitan as the golden age of OS X after which everything went sour.
If they introduce touch screen on their laptops, I would be quite disappointed. And sure, I would certainly admit that I was wrong in this regard. However, an LCD touch bar instead of function keys is an amazing idea if done right as it would allow the system to give additional information to the user and adapt to the current state of the system. Replacing function keys by OLED keys ≠ touch screen. Furthermore, we already have a touchscreen with advanced capabilities (up to handwriting recognition) — its the trackpad.
Of course that is what people desire! After all, they want to have a working OS. I do not understand why stability should be equated with stagnation though. We can have both stability and new features. And as I said before, full focus on stability meaning freezing the OS and its features on a specific level. This might be relevant for a server OS, but certainly a non-goal for an innovative company such as Apple. If Apple were conservative in this regards, they wouldn't be Apple and out likely there would be no Macs, because what would the point be in having a Mac over the more affordable Windows? As to your remark 'make a stable OS first and then add features': a) any change is a potential source of instability b) OS X is a quite stable OS already, given how extremely complex it is c) Apple is investing a lot of R&D into stability (e.g. Swift, app-level virtualisation etc.)
Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely agree with you that Apple should invest more resources in the low-level OS development and maintenance. There are some very annoying bugs (like the freezing bug) that have existed in multiple versions of OS X and are not fixed yet. I certainly agree that new features should NOT be introduced at the expense of stability (I don't see any evidence that that is what Apple is doing that though).
And besides, here the story is even more complicated. Remember Vista? Oh, how people howled about how bad of an OS it is. In fact, much of that bad feeling came from the fact that Vista was designed to increase stability. Microsoft finally decided to enforce things like access permissions and the like (what OS X has been doing since forever). Which meant that most Windows software just stopped working, as the programmers were used to basically s**t everywhere in the system they felt like doing (I am guilty of the same crime). Badly designed drivers — which were the most of them — had the same problem. By the time Windows 7 was released most of the software developers have caught up — and of course Windows 7 was suddenly a 'good' OS.
I don't think that the users who report and discuss problems on discussion sites represent the majority in any form or way. It is obvious that only users who have problems will report problems. But what about all the users who don't have any problems? They are essentially an invisible dark matter in this aspect. Polls like 'did you have issues with 10.11' won't help either, because people who have problems are more likely to vote. You can only check this by doing a representative sample and interviewing people. If problems would be massively widespread, the reaction would be MUCH more visible. I must have around two dozen machines running 10.11 right now, and only one user has complained about decreased stability. Sure, there were some initial issues for some setups with the new stricter security settings for OS X (which basically boiled down to third-party apps not respecting the design guidelines), but that was quickly fixed.
As to the low rating on the app store... the distribution is bimodal, which basically tells us that people who have an issue go there and give it 1 star. Not much more can be inferred from that, certainly not any representative idea about how satisfied people are with the software. I find it much more telling that the adoption rate for new versions of OS X are so extremely high. El Capitan is currently installed on around 50% of all Macs. Surely if half of the user base had serious stability issues that number would be much lower.
As expected, something appeared: "… for now, the most obvious change are a couple of changes to the sandbox data: …"
Oh, believe me, the grass always looks greener on the other side
That is a tricky thing. For example, Snow Leopard is for some reason widely regarded as the 'most stable OS X ever'. However, back than I was using Opera and Thunderbird instead of Safari and Mail. Safari was crashing constantly for me and Mail had major slowdowns and difficulties with supporting gmail. Furthermore, Snow Leopard did not work with my router, forcing me to buy a new one (which was a big deal for me, as I was a student and didn't have much money back then).
All in all, people tend to idealise the past. Nowadays people forget the controversies or known problems with Snow Leopard (like probably the the most dramatic data deletion bugs that an OS X launch ever had on its history). So far, people were complaining about EVERY release. You just can't make everyone happy. I am quite sure that 5 years from now many would remember El Capitan as the golden age of OS X after which everything went sour.
If they introduce touch screen on their laptops, I would be quite disappointed. And sure, I would certainly admit that I was wrong in this regard. However, an LCD touch bar instead of function keys is an amazing idea if done right as it would allow the system to give additional information to the user and adapt to the current state of the system. Replacing function keys by OLED keys ≠ touch screen. Furthermore, we already have a touchscreen with advanced capabilities (up to handwriting recognition) — its the trackpad.
Of course that is what people desire! After all, they want to have a working OS. I do not understand why stability should be equated with stagnation though. We can have both stability and new features. And as I said before, full focus on stability meaning freezing the OS and its features on a specific level. This might be relevant for a server OS, but certainly a non-goal for an innovative company such as Apple. If Apple were conservative in this regards, they wouldn't be Apple and out likely there would be no Macs, because what would the point be in having a Mac over the more affordable Windows? As to your remark 'make a stable OS first and then add features': a) any change is a potential source of instability b) OS X is a quite stable OS already, given how extremely complex it is c) Apple is investing a lot of R&D into stability (e.g. Swift, app-level virtualisation etc.)
Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely agree with you that Apple should invest more resources in the low-level OS development and maintenance. There are some very annoying bugs (like the freezing bug) that have existed in multiple versions of OS X and are not fixed yet. I certainly agree that new features should NOT be introduced at the expense of stability (I don't see any evidence that that is what Apple is doing that though).
And besides, here the story is even more complicated. Remember Vista? Oh, how people howled about how bad of an OS it is. In fact, much of that bad feeling came from the fact that Vista was designed to increase stability. Microsoft finally decided to enforce things like access permissions and the like (what OS X has been doing since forever). Which meant that most Windows software just stopped working, as the programmers were used to basically s**t everywhere in the system they felt like doing (I am guilty of the same crime). Badly designed drivers — which were the most of them — had the same problem. By the time Windows 7 was released most of the software developers have caught up — and of course Windows 7 was suddenly a 'good' OS.
I don't think that the users who report and discuss problems on discussion sites represent the majority in any form or way. It is obvious that only users who have problems will report problems. But what about all the users who don't have any problems? They are essentially an invisible dark matter in this aspect. Polls like 'did you have issues with 10.11' won't help either, because people who have problems are more likely to vote. You can only check this by doing a representative sample and interviewing people. If problems would be massively widespread, the reaction would be MUCH more visible. I must have around two dozen machines running 10.11 right now, and only one user has complained about decreased stability. Sure, there were some initial issues for some setups with the new stricter security settings for OS X (which basically boiled down to third-party apps not respecting the design guidelines), but that was quickly fixed.
As to the low rating on the app store... the distribution is bimodal, which basically tells us that people who have an issue go there and give it 1 star. Not much more can be inferred from that, certainly not any representative idea about how satisfied people are with the software. I find it much more telling that the adoption rate for new versions of OS X are so extremely high. El Capitan is currently installed on around 50% of all Macs. Surely if half of the user base had serious stability issues that number would be much lower.
You have presented a good systematic approach on your rebuttals and have done it well. I will consider my opinion on these matters going forward. I must admit you have given a good case and will reconsider My opinion and stance. It is refreshing to dialog with someone who can present their opinions validly and not just "ranting" as I have seen as of lately on these sites.
In regards to Snow Leopard, I understand why many praise that OS X, but I fall into the minority in that OS Lion seemed to work well with my applications and third party hardware over Snow Leopard (unless you need Rosetta). OS X Lion shines when you have increased RAM Memory and still I still use it today on one of my systems due to the need for legacy hardware and software usage, including Snow Leopard for Rosetta.
I also fall in the minority concerning Windows Vista and Windows 8.1. Both worked well for me and was Windows attempt at innovation, so I was not has hard on them for trying. Yes, Vista was a resource hog, including your comments on difficult drivers etc. but as you mentioned if developers followed the suggested coding rules and manuals concerning the changes with their latest OS, and therefore should normally not have issues.
I will be less hard on OS X development going forward. Thank you for showing me to "think different" again.
[doublepost=1464278773][/doublepost]I installed this update yesterday and now my Mac won't charge!?
Apple today seeded the first beta of an upcoming OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan update to developers for testing purposes, one week after releasing OS X 10.11.5, the fifth update to the OS X 10.11 operating system.
The OS X 10.11.6 update, build 15G7a, can be downloaded through the Apple Developer Center or through the Software Update mechanism in the Mac App Store.
We don't know what improvements the sixth update to OS X El Capitan might bring, but like prior updates, it's likely to focus mainly on performance improvements and bug fixes to address issues that have popped up since the release of OS X 10.11.5. According to Apple's release notes for the update, OS X 10.11.6 improves the stability, compatibility, and security of Macs.
OS X 10.11.5, the previous update, was also minor in scale and offered only bug fixes with no obvious outward-facing changes.
Article Link: Apple Seeds First OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan Beta to Developers
