Apple Seeds First Version of Mac OS X 10.5.4 to Developers

[dogbait]

It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

 

[NickFalk]

...I realise I upset Fanboys with this. But the fanboys defended Gil Amelio and were happy to say, "What iceberg?" while standing on the deck of the good ship Apple as it was sinking mid 90s. Perhaps my being harsh is because I support the company so much, and the best friend is one who can be honest and say it as it is, rather than supporting failure.

Enjoying the debate! Thanks for answering ;o)

Love this kind of argumentation: If you dare to disagree you are by definition a 'fanboy' and I win. No wonder you enjoy the 'debate'...

Anyway, I agree that Leopard has been flakey but my experience is nowhere near the disaster you, and obviously quite a few others, have experienced. A few irritating things, like the machine logging of a user when switching to another, but most things work great on my machine, wi-fi included.

As for iLife 08 it has worked perfectly for me from day one and I can't even remember it crashing once!

 

[AppleMojo]

I think the fact 10.5.4 is being seeded only ONE WEEK after 10.5.3 shows Leopard is a huge lump of a mistake. Indeed, talk of rapid change to 10.6 suggests Leopard is being abandoned for a re-write of the OS. A tacit admission of failure.

Leopard has been a disaster for users, breaking machines, frequently crashing (and ruining the previous excellent stability record of OS X) and being pathetic with wifi.

I am lucky to have two Macs, my main being an iMac, but I have a Powerbook 12". Whilst I have opted to upgrade the iMac, the Powerbook remains on Tiger and the difference shows. There have been times I have had to turn to the Powerbook for reliability of the OS to complete work. There are no wifi problems with the PB - despite the Al casing - whilst the iMac hangs... sitting next to the laptop. There are some on this forum who consistently deny there are problems with Leopard's wifi handling, blaming ISPs and hardware. Ask any Apple Store Genius and they will tell you what we all know: Leopard breaks wifi. Indeed they are fed up with half their daily work appeasing Leopard users with problems that needs OS fixes and can't be solved in store.

I am not a power user, but if I have problems with some website building (don't get me started on iWeb), word processing, Net use and DVD authoring what must power-users who have deadlines and deals on the line be going through?

I am a long-term reader of the forums, and I am sorry if I come across as negative, but Apple have seriously dropped the ball on the software. Let's look at the recent history: Pages, iWeb, iPhoto 08, iMovie 08 and Leopard were all useless on launch, and iWeb, iMovie 08 and Leopard are still inferior releases. The recent profit boost has come from iMac sales, not iPod/iPhone sales. Yes these latter items are technically brilliant and shiny, but Macs are the core and where the profits are, losing sight of that and focusing on the periphery could bring Apple tumbling down.

Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.

Thanks for letting me rant!

My opinion, you are completely wrong.

Nice way of blowing everything out of proportion and making wide generalizations about the OS. Heck, you might be right... every person within 50 yards of a Mac (with or without OS X) is having HUGE problems and their systems are completely UNUSABLE and Apple is heading for bankruptcy, for sure.

Truth be; If Apple never updated the OS, you'd be making a negative and exactly opposite claim.

It was seeded to DEVELOPERS, this doesn't mean anything other than a new build was made available to DEVELOPERS for TESTING.

Way to go... any movie theaters nearby you can swing in and yell fire!?

--> Back on topic, so I don't get in trouble.

I think it is great to see updates like this. Could be a sign of new features and functionality being prepared for WWDC, or maybe a new (within the last week) issue that has been identified and needs to be updated sooner than later.

Regardless, it's nice to see an OS these days get this kind of attention.

 

[pmoeser]

Wow. Apple's working hard I see. Just wow....already?

I thought the WOW had already begun?

Redmond, trade in your photocopiers for a Mac and a decent scanner...

 

[pmoeser]

Ask Apple Geniuses and the forums rather than relying on "imagination". Yes these are full of ranters and complainers (why moan when it works?) but the traffic concerning Leopard is unprecidented. This is reflected in the major rehauling of the updates. It could well be 10.5.9 will feature NONE of the code of 10.5.0 through updates. Admission that there was something seriously wrong with Leopard. With 500MB updates, we are showing huge levels of rewrites.

If Apple workers are conceding perfectly stable wifi networks are being broken on using Leopard, then this is a problem. Wifi has been around for a while and Leopard is meant to be an ADVANCE of Tiger, but it is a huge backward step in this regard. And the fact I mention Genius' concerns that this is an OS fault and not hardware or ISPs should not be forgotten here. By your admission, Leopard has taken something that worked well in Tiger and made it unstable or inoperable. In the name of progress!

I bet I can almost categorically guarantee that the people with Leopard issues don't just follow default installations.

Not one problem on 8 of the 10 macs in our organisation running Leopard (the other 2 are still on Tiger because Adobe suck at keeping up to date)

Give them a break. No other OS comes close to the ease of use and general stability of this product.

 

[pmoeser]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

Universal binaries will have the most effect on the file sizes.

 

[72930]

Universal binaries will have the most effect on the file sizes.

As shown by the GBs saved by XSlimmer.

 

[bignumbers]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

There are two very legitimate reasons why Leopard updates are so large.

One, the feature set. Leopard has more "stuff" than Tiger. Time Machine, Spaces, and a whole ton of background API's (Core Animation etc.).

Two, Universal Binary. In Tiger, Intel and PPC had different OS installs and different updates. In Leopard everything is combined. So all binary code is (roughly) twice as large as it would need to be for just one platform.

Three (ok, I said two), the way Apple packages their updates. They include full file replacements when diffs would make things much smaller. Their method is more reliable so I'm not complaining. But a 100 byte change in a 2MB file adds 2MB to the download.

They also added new features in 10.5.3 - Google address book syncing, a great new Spaces preference, etc.

I wouldn't relate update size to how "buggy" Leopard may or may not be. Personally I've found Leopard to be very usable and stable since 10.5.1. A few issues but nothing earth-shattering. If I remember right I didn't feel that way until 10.4.3 of the Tiger era.

As for the quick 10.5.4 seed I suspect the CS3 data corruption may have something to do with it. That's a very, very serious problem for Apple's designer base. I have no idea if I'm right (haven't read anything about 10.5.4 details), just a guess. If so, 10.5.4 could be out very quickly and the differential update very small.

 

[Jonny75]

My opinion, you are completely wrong.

Nice way of blowing everything out of proportion and making wide generalizations about the OS. Heck, you might be right... every person within 50 yards of a Mac (with or without OS X) is having HUGE problems and their systems are completely UNUSABLE and Apple is heading for bankruptcy, for sure.

Truth be; If Apple never updated the OS, you'd be making a negative and exactly opposite claim.

It was seeded to DEVELOPERS, this doesn't mean anything other than a new build was made available to DEVELOPERS for TESTING.

Way to go... any movie theaters nearby you can swing in and yell fire!?

Don't go hysterical. I made an argument with reason and supporting evidence and opinion. I didn't ask to be agreed, but I did expect polite debate with some humour. If you can only play me rather than the debate, then you have lost the argument. At least others whilst disagreeing with me have given their view of the POINTS with evidence and I respect that.

I did not say Apple is on to bankrupcy, but the last time Apple spent a protracted period of ignoring their failings in the Mac market, it hit them hard. Evidence from financial quarters shows Mac growth leads to huge profits, and as much as I love my Touch and will buy a 3G iPhone, for business sustainability - especially in these tough times - you need to strengthen your core. History is the best predictor of the future.

Did I say everyone is having problems? No. But I did say there are problems with Leopard and 10.5.3 is the most usable versions with 10.5.0-2 having a distinctly beta flavour. I am not going to go over all my points again as I hope you can re-read them with a calmer disposition.

--> Back on topic, so I don't get in trouble.

Maybe you realise you stepped over the mark?

Regardless, it's nice to see an OS these days get this kind of attention.

So you admit Leopard is getting serious attention. Agreed? Yes, well my point is why is it needing so much attention? A tacit admission of coding problems?

Please use humour, but play the point, not the man and you were the one with no evidence. It is unfailing defence, going about as if everything were perfect that leads to complacency and problems. I'm sure Jobs is on to it, but there are some serious software delivery problems that need addressing. Apple doesn't go in for dialogue about their issues - rightly - so we must look at the evidence. If everything were right in Camp Leopard would we see so much work? Tiger didn't.

We also must look at this outwith a Mac stand point. From the wider technology world.

 

[Jonny75]

I bet I can almost categorically guarantee that the people with Leopard issues don't just follow default installations.

Not one problem on 8 of the 10 macs in our organisation running Leopard (the other 2 are still on Tiger because Adobe suck at keeping up to date)

Give them a break. No other OS comes close to the ease of use and general stability of this product.

I am rigourous with the update process. My machine is very well maintained, and I had many of the faults described here. Chatting to the Glasgow Apple Geniuses, their in-store and home Macs when upgrading to Leopard had many of the problems. If the staff can't get it right, what hope is there! ;o)

I'm glad you didn't have problems, and admittedly 10.5.3 is far better, but it has a way to go to be more stable than Tiger was at 10.4.3. I would have thought Leopard builds on Tiger (I mean as an end user) and should be superior, but I suspect it won't reach a practical stability until 10.5.5/6 by which time it may have been slated.

 

[137489]

How is this possible?!

10.6 on the horizon alongside constant updates to 10.5... insanity. We JUST upgraded to 10.5.3 last week!

Well, with my Windows based systems, I seem to get automatic updates atleast once a week. Other than the usual "Gotta restart" or "your computer has been restarted" I do not see any functionaility changes (unless something crashed - which 50% of the time it does).

Anyway, I can see another update coming. 10.5.3 took a while to be released (for those who are not developers, let me share with you - there is the brainstorming cycle, the collaboration, the actual development, then testing and possibly back to development and retesting - before a release to ensure it goses out as bug free as possible. However, it is almost impossible to catch everything).

The reason I can see another update coming: You all on this forum posted it yourself. Some people felt there was still work to be done, others wanted to see more put in it, and others still complained it "broke" one of your hacks or something else.

I am glad to see that Apple is agressively supporting and improving their software, while working on the newest thing. Too often I hear from other companies (even when submitting bugs); "ok, we will consider that for the next release" - which usually means in the next upgrade version that I will have to buy.

I say way to go

 

[stenosis.kill]

*cough*

 

[bentoms]

Please fix directory services..

In 10.5.x there are so far lots of issues with logging in to a large AD Domain with multiple child domains.

Many of us Mac administrators cannot rollout new Macs as since 10.5.x it's taking upto 10 mins to login & some configurations can only ever login once.

Apple are aware of this, as have responded to a number of bug reports regarding this, so I hope it's finally fixed.

 

[bentoms]

*cough*

Seems that my issues maybe resolved!!

 

[137489]

Love this kind of argumentation: If you dare to disagree you are by definition a 'fanboy' and I win. No wonder you enjoy the 'debate'...

Anyway, I agree that Leopard has been flakey but my experience is nowhere near the disaster you, and obviously quite a few others, have experienced. A few irritating things, like the machine logging of a user when switching to another, but most things work great on my machine, wi-fi included.

As for iLife 08 it has worked perfectly for me from day one and I can't even remember it crashing once!

For what it's worth.... I have never had an issue with my mac, and I have only been a mac owner since leopard. I will say one thing, I had to boot up my old dell laptop last night, as I still have documents I need to bring over to my mac. I don't know when I will ever complete that process, as everytime I bottle (edit -meant boot but I think my mind strayed to bottle neck) up my 2 year old dell xps m1210 with 1.5 gb ram - running 3 apps or more makes it run so slow.... I sat for an hour with a locked up machine converting a OneNote page to PDF (oh it was actually working, but I could not do anything else). Plus the thing heated up so bad last night that the keyboard was even hot to the touch and I could not leave my hand on the palm rest. I have a feeling this will be my next dell crash and nightmare.

It also takes 2 hrs to render an 8 minute video. I just can't use my dell laptop and be productive anymore. and that is supposed to be a backup to my work desktop (should it crash again - and yes that is a dell too).

I long for the days where the world is all mac's.

 

[sihecht]

G5 user with Leopard

Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.
--------------

I have owned a G5 dual 2.3 for the last 3 years and installed Leopard on it when it was 10.5.0. It is now installed with 10.5.3. I have had absolutely NO problems with this OS. So you see there are happy G5 + Leopard owners out there.

 

[stenosis.kill]

Seems that my issues maybe resolved!!

Yeah, i hope so that my issue will also be fixed.. but it's hard to wait another 2-3 months Please let this fix my LEAP connection bug for real this time.

 

[Jonny75]

Finally, I am amused some think "Snow Leopard" will be the first OS to drop PowerPC support... surely that was Leopard 10.5.0? Reading these forums the bulk of the complaints come from G4/G5 users, so it is clear Apple have dropped support there.
--------------

I have owned a G5 dual 2.3 for the last 3 years and installed Leopard on it when it was 10.5.0. It is now installed with 10.5.3. I have had absolutely NO problems with this OS. So you see there are happy G5 + Leopard owners out there.

Yeah, that was with tongue in cheek.

 

[AdeFowler]

Please fix the problems that 10.5.? has with CS3 so that I can finally put Leopard on my G5

 

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Dare I admit it... I'm on 10.4.11 I confess! I also confess 10.4.11 is a VERY finely tuned machine. Black Macbook used 7 days a week, always in and out of standby, and I just don't reboot or have crashes ever. That's with VMWare and other apps always open.

Bring on 10.4.12!

If it were me I wouldn't want an update in your shoes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[137489]

Jonny75 is definitely onto something there. If we track the size (MB) of 10.4 updates vs 10.5 updates (all Combo updates) we see that the updates have increased from Tiger to Leopard by a massive amount!

10.4.1 - 37MB
10.4.2 - 58MB
10.4.3 - 109MB

10.5.1 - 110MB
10.5.2 - 343MB
10.5.3 - 536MB

What precisely Apple is fixing and why there's so much to fix (compared to Tiger) is a question I would love to hear answered...

As a developer myself:

1. the more features you add in, the more code to make those features.

2. the more code you have - the more you have to release when you fix something. Yes it would be nice and I love it when I fix something and the fix was only contained in one program. However, 9 times out of 10... The problem is in one codeset, so you fix that - then you have to change another codeset to properly handle the old data and the new fix. Or, you have another program added in that automatically fixes the problems caused by the first bug.

3. Operating systems are very complex as you also have to take into account the applications running on them. you do not want to (or atleast try not to) release something that breaks other apps or causes other software companies to have major rewrites. thus sometimes the code is a little bloated to handle both the backwards compatibility as well as the new features. It would be nice for streamlined code but, as a developer; trying to be compatible with what is already there makes a lot of "IF x then y else z" statements; which then adds to the number of byes in a program.

Or in the case of visual basic on MS:

Case 1 <execute some code>
Case 2 <execute some code>
Case 3

All these case statements take into account coming across different scenerios.

 

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

I was really hoping for the code name of 10.6 to be Lion. Snow Leopard sounds like a minor update to Leopard.

 

[star-affinity]

My 867MHz Powermac G4 Quicksilver has been indexing & kernel panicking for like 3 days now with 10.5.3.

Should I just give up on Leopard for this SUPPOSEDLY SUPPORTED MAC or just wait for the class action lawsuit that pays me $9.75 on my $129 purchase ???

Strange, I have the same model—Quicksilver G4 867 MHz (single processor) and I haven't noticed anything getting worse in 10.5.3.

On the other hand I don't use it that heavily. What apps n' stuff do you run on it?

 

[p96159]

Leopard is great

I've had Leopard since 10.5.0 (now 10.5.3) installed on all my Macs:
1. 512MB Mac Mini Solo
2. 1.75GB dual 2.0 GHz G5
3. 2GB Macbook Pro Core Duo 2.0 Ghz
and had absolutely no problems (aside from being a little slow on the Mac Mini, since remedied by adding RAM). The vast majority of people I've spoken to (academics who use their Macs for code development, video conferencing, web hosting, svn repository) report the same: Leopard is a huge improvement for day to day use them.

Leopard is without a doubt more stable than Tiger ever was on my Macbook Pro, I've never had a crash, but had several with Tiger (my Macbook is on 24/7). I think you guys are looking back on the tiger days with rose tinted spectacles..........

 

[mrJnC]

I have a bug

I'm still experiencing the inability to search "entire message" within Mail. Hasn't worked yet under Leptard for any account (.mac, exchange, gmail). Wasn't an issue with Tiger.

I've rebuilt the spotlight database, but no fix.