I'm very good with computers, and Leopard seems more unstable to me than late Tiger builds. This is true in my experience on 2 iMacs, a MacBook, a MacBook Pro, 2 MBAs and a Mac Pro. Granted, the MBAs and the Pro never ran Tiger, but I still get the idea quite clearly that Leopard has never been very stable, and 10.5.3 may have made matters worse.
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Apple Seeds First Version of Mac OS X 10.5.4 to Developers
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I'm very good with computers, and Leopard seems more unstable to me than late Tiger builds. This is true in my experience on 2 iMacs, a MacBook, a MacBook Pro, 2 MBAs and a Mac Pro. Granted, the MBAs and the Pro never ran Tiger, but I still get the idea quite clearly that Leopard has never been very stable, and 10.5.3 may have made matters worse.
I'll start by commenting on your last line. Ranting is fine at times, as long as you don't think you represent everyone 
I'll do the same in my own rant
Or a tacit admission of progress? Every OS is "abandoned" for the next thing the company produces, not because the old doesn't still serve it's purpose, is broken, or anything negative, but because the company believes they can do it better still (which results in sales, surely) and make something the user will enjoy.
As far as quick point update releases, I would bet that Apple had two teams working on two different sets of problems and implementations. If 10.5.4 is right around the corner, than it is probably more a support update, not a bug fix update. But that doesn't mean that they won't incorporate any new fixes that they have at the time it is passed out.
I guess I'm one of the lucky users that has had NO problems with leopard, and I use my laptop on multi platform networks, hard wires and wireless, with a device for every single port my Powerbook has (minus the mic) and use them all at once. I don't use all iLife apps certainly, but am an avid photographer and am amazed at how well my computer still handles the images my 20D spits out.
They must either be going out of business, not having the problem at all, or finding a fix. There aren't many other options.
And I don't see that at all. The recent advances in Apple's software continue to surprise and amaze me. Perhaps some of this comes from looking at it from the point of a Computer science major, and I do need to remember at times that the beauty of the ability isn't always as important as the end result of the software. But I can't help but look at software from many different companies on a weekly basis and find obvious and stupid bugs, UI implementation, and inconsistency that is quite infrequent in the majority of Apple's applications.
if iMovie was inferior it wasn't due so much to bad programming, as much as bad choices to ever ship it. They THOUGHT costumers would like it more (you know, so they could sell it) but costumers did not, and I believe they resolved that in some fashion?
I of course, on an experience level with my own Mac, and my Families other PPC, and 4 Intel based laptops all running Leopard, would have to disagree that Leopard is any sort of standard on shoddy work. For us it works quite well. (And that would be Two Computer Scientists, a Doctor, and 3 Artists for the record, who all use their Mac in their field daily, all but me, stupid PPC)
I don't think they have lost site of their Computers at all. These devices are enabling Apple, not dragging them down. They are bring new costumers, and better than that, are a test bed for future technology.
Apple has produced a Cross platform device that isn't a computer, and yet puts OSX in everyones hands, along with this new fangled touch screen technology, a technology that most people haven't seen used in the way its implamented on the iPhone/Touch. This technology is just BOUND to make it into future Apple computers, and I honestly think it will make it to computers FASTER than if Apple had tried to go straight to their core computers with the technology as a first step. For starters, the technology would have flopped. Now Apple has a name in the touch screen world. Their OS Engineers have experience, applied, practical experience with feedback from costumers. On a small managable scale they are figuring out what works and does not work, and this knowledge is directly applicable to the steps taken to bring it to Laptops/Desktops/PDA devices.
Having more problems from PPC users, especially really old PPC machines, is no surprise, is it? It's harder to test for all these machines, and it IS harder to care. It's a bigger deal if a bunch of intel chips flop than if all the Bondi Blue iMacs do, right?
At this point in time my trust laptop, with 3 Kernel panics to its name, has served me for 4.5 years, and is coming up on the designs 5 year anniversary. At this point in time, if I install a new piece of software I pray to God it works, but am not surprised if it doesn't. Operating Systems are in the top 3 category of Intricate, complicated, sophisticated, and blindly brilliant pieces of software produced today, and OSX is no exception.
I'm not trying to discredit you, because I believe you have problems. But I also know that many many people do not, and yet you talk as if you represent the world and Apple is going to the gutter. Personally I think Apple is stronger than it ever has been, both as a company, as well as by the products they produce. But that is just my opinion based on my own experience, and nothing more.
[/end rant]
Cheers,
~Earendil
I'll do the same in my own rant
Or a tacit admission of progress? Every OS is "abandoned" for the next thing the company produces, not because the old doesn't still serve it's purpose, is broken, or anything negative, but because the company believes they can do it better still (which results in sales, surely) and make something the user will enjoy.
As far as quick point update releases, I would bet that Apple had two teams working on two different sets of problems and implementations. If 10.5.4 is right around the corner, than it is probably more a support update, not a bug fix update. But that doesn't mean that they won't incorporate any new fixes that they have at the time it is passed out.
I guess I'm one of the lucky users that has had NO problems with leopard, and I use my laptop on multi platform networks, hard wires and wireless, with a device for every single port my Powerbook has (minus the mic) and use them all at once. I don't use all iLife apps certainly, but am an avid photographer and am amazed at how well my computer still handles the images my 20D spits out.
They must either be going out of business, not having the problem at all, or finding a fix. There aren't many other options.
And I don't see that at all. The recent advances in Apple's software continue to surprise and amaze me. Perhaps some of this comes from looking at it from the point of a Computer science major, and I do need to remember at times that the beauty of the ability isn't always as important as the end result of the software. But I can't help but look at software from many different companies on a weekly basis and find obvious and stupid bugs, UI implementation, and inconsistency that is quite infrequent in the majority of Apple's applications.
if iMovie was inferior it wasn't due so much to bad programming, as much as bad choices to ever ship it. They THOUGHT costumers would like it more (you know, so they could sell it) but costumers did not, and I believe they resolved that in some fashion?
I of course, on an experience level with my own Mac, and my Families other PPC, and 4 Intel based laptops all running Leopard, would have to disagree that Leopard is any sort of standard on shoddy work. For us it works quite well. (And that would be Two Computer Scientists, a Doctor, and 3 Artists for the record, who all use their Mac in their field daily, all but me, stupid PPC
)I don't think they have lost site of their Computers at all. These devices are enabling Apple, not dragging them down. They are bring new costumers, and better than that, are a test bed for future technology.
Apple has produced a Cross platform device that isn't a computer, and yet puts OSX in everyones hands, along with this new fangled touch screen technology, a technology that most people haven't seen used in the way its implamented on the iPhone/Touch. This technology is just BOUND to make it into future Apple computers, and I honestly think it will make it to computers FASTER than if Apple had tried to go straight to their core computers with the technology as a first step. For starters, the technology would have flopped. Now Apple has a name in the touch screen world. Their OS Engineers have experience, applied, practical experience with feedback from costumers. On a small managable scale they are figuring out what works and does not work, and this knowledge is directly applicable to the steps taken to bring it to Laptops/Desktops/PDA devices.
Having more problems from PPC users, especially really old PPC machines, is no surprise, is it? It's harder to test for all these machines, and it IS harder to care. It's a bigger deal if a bunch of intel chips flop than if all the Bondi Blue iMacs do, right?
At this point in time my trust laptop, with 3 Kernel panics to its name, has served me for 4.5 years, and is coming up on the designs 5 year anniversary. At this point in time, if I install a new piece of software I pray to God it works, but am not surprised if it doesn't. Operating Systems are in the top 3 category of Intricate, complicated, sophisticated, and blindly brilliant pieces of software produced today, and OSX is no exception.
I'm not trying to discredit you, because I believe you have problems. But I also know that many many people do not, and yet you talk as if you represent the world and Apple is going to the gutter. Personally I think Apple is stronger than it ever has been, both as a company, as well as by the products they produce. But that is just my opinion based on my own experience, and nothing more.
[/end rant]
Cheers,
~Earendil
I'm starting to think, with all these recent threads and posts concerning software, and the software development cycle, that MacRumors could use a sticky/wiki explaining those two concepts and ideas.
Lord knows the rest of the world needs them, but for our own uses it would be nice to direct people to someplace local...
Okay, back on topic!
It appears to me that Apple isn't so much trying harder, as they are having great success at being productive. This doesn't have to have anything to do with the number of people, or the amount of money thrown at it, and so may have absolutely nothing to do with management. Apple didn't just suddenly "choose" to fix bugs or release things faster, they are just capable of it, and so are doing it as fast they can.
Lord knows the rest of the world needs them, but for our own uses it would be nice to direct people to someplace local...
Okay, back on topic!
It appears to me that Apple isn't so much trying harder, as they are having great success at being productive. This doesn't have to have anything to do with the number of people, or the amount of money thrown at it, and so may have absolutely nothing to do with management. Apple didn't just suddenly "choose" to fix bugs or release things faster, they are just capable of it, and so are doing it as fast they can.
Releasing a seed for the next update days within releasing the previous does not at all indicates that Leopard is flawed. There can be other reasons for this:
- We can expect 10.5.4 might add some modules for the upcoming products which might start shipping post WWDC.
- Some other pre-branching modules to be added before they branch it to Snow-Leopard.
- We cant see the big or the small picture because most of us are end users. We all are just speculating.
And may be I am lucky but I run my leopard too on Penryn based Macbook Pro with VMWare and other programs running on it 24x7 and at times I have left my machine running for a couple weeks without needing to restart it.
Perfection comes at a price.... and if that it means I have to update it at regular intervals.... I more than welcome it.
Everybody is the master of their own trade... so let the apple engineers work and do the talking.... No point ranting about of the though speculations!
For a big cat, the lion is heavy, slow, and generally inactive. I'm not sure that's the image Apple wants to project in their OS.
time to say good-bye
Don't leave us Scott, many of us like reading your posts (very insightful) and you will be missed.
If your personal/professional life requires you leaving then what can you do? But, if you are leaving because of what people post on here, know that many people like reading the debates from an educated/logical person such as yourself.
I hope you reconsider, best of luck...
I am kind of wondering what another poster said. Maybe it will be a true 64bit os? Taking leopard to the next level. But then again what do I know I am pretty new to the whole Mac thing. But his makes for some very good reading.
Which is actually a good point. With my PPC I haven't been keeping track of specifics ont he intel chips. Are all INtel chips truely 64 bit? Have they been since they went into Macs?
I suppose it would make sense for Apple to possibly offer a 64bit version of leopard with all the cocoa code ripped out of it with the PPC Universal binaries as well, and off it as a "Snow Leopard". No real UI changes, nothing any novice would ever notice, and certainly nothing most of us would pay $130 for.
However, if that were all offered, it would represent a large amount of work, work that has to be done for future OSX versions, and may be needed now for some of the smaller devices that Apple is coming out with like the iPhone and possibly other sub-computer devices down the line.
Perhaps if they offered it as a power user upgrade for $50 or something we'd all be happy? It would probably represent a speed increase, and inherent security upgrade due to there being less code for a hacker to poke holes in.
Thoughts anyone?
Don't leave us Scott, many of us like reading your posts (very insightful) and you will be missed.
If your personal/professional life requires you leaving then what can you do? But, if you are leaving because of what people post on here, know that many people like reading the debates from an educated/logical person such as yourself.
I hope you reconsider, best of luck...
ok, maybe I will just take a backseat and only post some (if I see a debate getting too wild in speculation, or what I think needs to happen)...
I have a lot of knowledge in I/T (20+ years at various levels from application support, programming/development, and lower management - plus I have 1 5-shelved bookshelf of books in various programming languages and 35gb of electronic I/T and programming books).
I always seem to be helping out someone [or shedding light and helping people understand] more than I have the time for (like right now, I am fighting with Dell to get parts for a computer a friend aquired and needs fixed). He is a good friend, so I wanted to help in out - but in all reality I could've told him what to order (umm, then again considering his hardware knowledge, maybe not
) and let him spend the 5 days on the phone for 1-2 hrs getting transferred between 20 different people, only to have to re-order the part because Dell screwed up and cancelled my order and never informed me.But seriously... My personal and professional life is taking up a lot of time.
I need to also try to find some chill time to relax and refocus on what I am going to seminary for, and the reasons why I am looking to eventually leave I/T. I am spending a way too many hours in front of a computer than with my wife, or really making a difference that matters. I also have been working so much that I only have acquaintaces and do not have time for real friends or the hobbies I used to enjoy (Fishing, Canoeing, just reading a good book by the fire). I also see a lot of trends happening in the I/T world that worries me about my future in the industry and where it is headed (contract only positions for short term projects, which usually means moving a lot). I have already been offered positions (and I am not even looking - I have a programming job I am happy at) to work 6 months here, 3 months there, and a few weeks in yet another part of the country. do I really want to devote the rest of my life to an industry that is taking wild swings, has more so/so days or headaches than good, and takes me away from what really matters?
Some people say I am getting burnt out, some say that because I turn 40 in January I am going through a mid-life crisis (nah, that can't be it - I have no desire in sports cars, taking daring extreme vacations, nor looking for a younger women).
Say what you want about Bill Gates. There is one thing I do admire him for. He spend his career building a legacy of a company, never lost perspective of helping his fellow man, and now that his time is done at MS - he is turning more attention to what really matters and building that legacy -> his family and human life through his charity. Just think where the world would be without the Bill Gates, Jimmy Carters (Habitat for humanity - at almost 80, he is still out there hammering nails into boards so that the less fortunate have a roof over their heads, they can call their own), or even people we never even heard of that other people say wow, I am better off because they came into my life.
I look at my life, and I say - what legacy am I leaving. i spent 20 years thinking of my career and computers. Do I want my next 20 to be like that, or do I want to build a legacy that carries on and people remember me more than just seeing the back of my head in front of 2 glowing boxes (I have dual screens). Like now, my wife just yelled to me to come to bed. yet another night I just got home from school and I am sitting here on a computer instead of settling down for the night.
No, I am not looking for glory by any means, that will come when I am in heaven with Jesus. I just want my life to be more than my job. My job makes me money to live. My job does not define who I am, which for too long I saw myself as that. I even sat there some nights thinking I could not go on if I was not doing computers some how.
my pastor gave us for keys to life that I wish I learned long ago.
1. love your God with all your heart and all your soul.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
3. Never borrow money on anything that will depreciate.
4. for every dollar you earn, give 10 cents to God, 10 cents to your self (savings), and live on the other 80 cents.
With that you will always have what you need, never be without, always be happy and satisfied and will never depend on the government for social security.
I will be here if you have questions. i will also be buying .mac after all the rumors settle down about the future of that and will be starting a smaller version of the website i used to run.
10.4.10 might be better.
My aluminum 2.0ghz came out in Aug. of 2007, and it's computer-specific discs are an intel version of 10.4.10.
I am starting to feel lucky to have purchased this specific machine when i did.
Having the machine set up as a dual-boot 10.4/10.5, I am using 10.4 most all the time. Rock solid os.
Wow, some of the comments here have been aimed at me for daring to share my experiences, referring to press criticisms and having an real life/user of 15yrs (not programmer) opinion.
Following the thread I know the administrators have been removing attacks, but I think it strengthens my argument that there are those who cannot argue against me, but will try and insult me. I appreciate all the comments which have been more constructive-- this is a rumours and discussion site and debate can be provocative and not diktat. You cannot bully silence and criticism out of the forum.
I really don't have more to say, but I think it rather sad some can't have debate and believe their own hype. It only feeds the views outside of the Apple community that there are Fanboys who are still subject to the reality distortion field and are really... quite pathetic in their fanaticism and manner. The vitriolic manner has also lead to public announcements of leaving the forum.
Shame.
Following the thread I know the administrators have been removing attacks, but I think it strengthens my argument that there are those who cannot argue against me, but will try and insult me. I appreciate all the comments which have been more constructive-- this is a rumours and discussion site and debate can be provocative and not diktat. You cannot bully silence and criticism out of the forum.
I really don't have more to say, but I think it rather sad some can't have debate and believe their own hype. It only feeds the views outside of the Apple community that there are Fanboys who are still subject to the reality distortion field and are really... quite pathetic in their fanaticism and manner. The vitriolic manner has also lead to public announcements of leaving the forum.
Shame.
1054 / Ad / Cs3
Don't see a lot of (any?) postings here by system admins in prepress / production... you guys realize that 1053 and Abode CS3 (in a server environment) hate each other, right? It has been a huge flaw and I'm sure there were some younger techs that just applied the update after it was released instead of sandboxing / doing a test machine first that lost their jobs. Basically, if you are running CS3 and opening docs on a server (AFP/SMB no matter) it eats the docs. Corruption.
Also---> Despite major nice things in 1053 it was still not keeping bound well in Active Directory environs ... and that's even when the AD box was used as a time server.
Oh how I wait for 1054 so that I can move on with my life!!!111!! Its kind of like Office 2008 before the service pack; it can do the job but it has some major drawbacks that keep admins doing junk instead of fun stuff like planning images with site licensed software, etc.
Just my 2 cents (an my first post on MacRumors, BTW, despite reading and admiring it for several years)
Don't see a lot of (any?) postings here by system admins in prepress / production... you guys realize that 1053 and Abode CS3 (in a server environment) hate each other, right? It has been a huge flaw and I'm sure there were some younger techs that just applied the update after it was released instead of sandboxing / doing a test machine first that lost their jobs. Basically, if you are running CS3 and opening docs on a server (AFP/SMB no matter) it eats the docs. Corruption.
Also---> Despite major nice things in 1053 it was still not keeping bound well in Active Directory environs ... and that's even when the AD box was used as a time server.
Oh how I wait for 1054 so that I can move on with my life!!!111!! Its kind of like Office 2008 before the service pack; it can do the job but it has some major drawbacks that keep admins doing junk instead of fun stuff like planning images with site licensed software, etc.
Just my 2 cents (an my first post on MacRumors, BTW, despite reading and admiring it for several years)
Don't take this as an attack against you...
But seriously, because one sees something in a different light then you does not make them a fanboy. I have been watching this, somewhat lengthy, thread (on 5 pages, but oh well ^_~). People do get heated, but if you are all for debates, than you should know and welcome this as a sign of a real debate. And yes, personal attacks occur.
However, some things you said i find technically incorrect. I think we should both be able to agree that it doesn't make me an Apple fanboy for my somewhat opposite view.
The reason i mention this is all due to a very simple fact: You don't post about it if it isn't broken (this is generally speaking of course, but such statements usually are) You are going to post something somewhere or mention to someone your problem that is ailing you then someone who is feeling great. Sure people sometimes do post about feeling great (or on behalf of their computers ^^), but that is just the details of a matter and can be expected.
With all the documented problems with Leopard, your presenting it as a flawed OS (and mentioned something close to that). This seems to be what i see as the reasons some people have gotten heated with you. Unfortunately, this also brings down your credibility in many eyes, mostly due to cross generic statements that do no one good. I say this purely to plug this in: Research the number of copies that Leopard has sold. This should include the number of pre-installed copies, upgrade cds, and boxes. Compare this to the number of documented cases of issues. While there are plenty, the average user you seem to be pushing so hard as, does not notice the issues, has no real basis for comparison, has someone else fix it, it works perfectly (which has been the case for the 300+ Macs i maintain in my area that are running leopard) or is a windows convert and still sees it as an improvement (zing!
... 下手な冗談を言う、分かってるよ。). My point is, even with a small fraction of people complaining that its more broken then x.x.x, it's doing perfectly well. You may view it differently but that is your view and i am fine with that. You should be fine with others views as well, no matter if it irks you or if you think differently. Remember: Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win, your still r374rd3d.
On topic: Bring on 10.5.4! I look forward to whatever possible improvements it brings. ^_~
If that reads 'retarded', OUCH!
Running Leopard on a G4 Quicksilver containing non-Apple CPU upgrade, various PCI cards, bluetooth-dongle etc, it's been feeling more solid than 10.4.11.
I have to agree with ArsTechnica about the amount of 'under-the-hood' work that has been put into Leopard, and it's solidness since September 2007 -
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/mac-os-x-10-5.ars/15
Hopefully, Leopard will gain stronger and longer legs as it evolves, so that these aging G4/5s can die happy.