Apple Seeds QuickTime 7.6 to Developers, No H.264 Acceleration Yet

[trip1ex]

I'm just starting to think that todays H.264 hardware accel is different than the days past. Otherwise, why would the same OSX and QT on the new Macbooks get a 70-80% drop in cpu utilization. Seems to me that if it was that easy, and they obviously have the tech implemented today, that there would be no reason it shouldn't be applied to all the other systems..... Unless the so called H.264 acceleration in the older GPUs is simply weak at best...(more marketing than real hw acceleration). I know every Windows box Ive seen struggles desperately with H.264.

Exactly. I don't think the same tech is just sitting there in old Macs (like those with x1600 vid cards) waiting for Apple to take advantage of it. Maybe they have a shred of H.264 acceleration, but not like the new MBs do.

Also what Mac users are watching 1080p content on their MBs? I want to know what the cpu savings is for 720p H.264 content since 1080p content is overkill on a MB.

 

[Peace]

You wrote:



Change it to:

That is not correct..

But since this has already come up and it's out in the open lets get it straight shall we?

• Multichannel encoding with material that has distinct content in the front
and surround channels
• Apple Lossless*playback*and encoding with 16 and 24 bit source material
at various sample rates
• MPEG-1 playback and transcoding to other formats


Now that's as official as you're going to get.

And I'll probably get a nasty email.

 

[840quadra]

The Intel-only Snow Leopard rumour has been denied by people at Apple. You would think doing an Intel-only version (or having the installer figure out what you're running) would allow for more optimization, but so far it is not fact.

Thanks for the update. I was not aware of that fact.

OS X uses the GPU for all visual rendering (windows themselves are treated as flat polygons, if I remember right, which makes all the morphing and scaling effects run so well). That's what Quartz Extreme and the Core suite are all about. Snow Leopard is supposed to bring all the GPGPU-type stuff, on a level far more sophisticated and complete than Windows will have any time soon.

Great point.

Anybody still using old G4 hardware (like myself) has run into issues with cards that don't support Core image / quartz extreme. The Quatrz Extreme component is what gives us lots of "eye candy", and enables many applications to offload parts of the visual rendering to the graphics processor.

I doubt many on here remember when Tiger first came out, and the list of systems that didn't support the "ripple" effect in Dashboard. That is a feature of Core Image and many of us (back in the day) were still running OS X on hardware that didn't support this.

 

[Mattnh]

People with older Macs have found that rebooting into Windows (which does support hardware acceleration) results in much lower cpu loads for h.264 decoding. So, it's a purely software issue.

arn

Yes, now you got my full attention...
Really.
Any speedtests somewhere?

 

[Bokito]

That the new MacBook Pro's only uses about 15% of the CPU might turn down into QuickTime efficiency too. When you run a full HD movie on an older MacBook pro, the first movie accounts for about 55% processor usage. The second puts it to 80% (would only be 25%) and the third goed to about 95%. That is 15% usage for that movie. Now it seems a bit unlikely that the last movie is only using 15%, but maybe the CPU speed is boosted in the meantime. It could mean that the new CPUs in the new MacBook Pro always run at max speed/power. Or that the CPU cache works way better on the new MacBook Pros. It doesn't seem like it is GPU decoding.

What is also possible is that there is a dedicated hardware decoder in the new MBP. Some rumors hinted at that, but nothing recently.

 

[MacsRgr8]

Yes, now you got my full attention...
Really.
Any speedtests somewhere?

I can't give you any speed tests, but I do remember when I acquired an ATi Radeon X1800 XT card for my PC a few years ago, I could download ATi Catalyst drivers and a Windows Media Player(me thinks it waz..) plug-in for hardware acceleration of H.264 playback.
So, seems software w/ driver support issue to me.

 

[madmaxmedia]

What is also possible is that there is a dedicated hardware decoder in the new MBP. Some rumors hinted at that, but nothing recently.

There is a hardware decoder, I think that is a known fact. The only question is whether OS X uses it.

The previous comparison of CPU usage in the new Macs would seem to indicate that it is, but yeah I guess we don't know for sure. Though it's extremely unlikely that such a performance difference would be software-only.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

That is not correct..

But since this has already come up and it's out in the open lets get it straight shall we?

• Multichannel encoding with material that has distinct content in the front
and surround channels
• Apple Lossless*playback*and encoding with 16 and 24 bit source material
at various sample rates
• MPEG-1 playback and transcoding to other formats


Now that's as official as you're going to get.

And I'll probably get a nasty email.

You're better served citing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1

, yet specifically MPEG1-Layer 3 is the most commonly playback/encoding part of the MPEG1 specification; and if they were going to target 5 to 1 audio they should cite MPEG 2.

 

[Peace]

You're better served citing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-1

, yet specifically MPEG1-Layer 3 is the most commonly playback/encoding part of the MPEG1 specification; and if they were going to target 5 to 1 audio they should cite MPEG 2.

I was citing my NDA PDF document from Apple.

And I'm sure I'll hear about it too.

If you have issues with that contact the Apple Developers Connection.

 

[BillG07]

Also what Mac users are watching 1080p content on their MBs? I want to know what the cpu savings is for 720p H.264 content since 1080p content is overkill on a MB.

All of them that plug into an HDTV to watch anything from their computers. We do that all the time with MBs and MBPs to get full HD.

 

[Infrared]

People with older Macs have found that rebooting into Windows (which does support hardware acceleration) results in much lower cpu loads for h.264 decoding. So, it's a purely software issue.

arn

Indeed. In relation to which:

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/CP/11036/PureVideo_Product_Comparison.pdf

 

[thejadedmonkey]

I was citing my NDA PDF document from Apple.

And I'm sure I'll hear about it too.

If you have issues with that contact the Apple Developers Connection.

Please don't get in trouble Peace, that makes me sad :tear:

 

[ihabime]

Exactly. I don't think the same tech is just sitting there in old Macs (like those with x1600 vid cards) waiting for Apple to take advantage of it. Maybe they have a shred of H.264 acceleration, but not like the new MBs do.

Actually it is pretty much the same hardware decoding that's been in almost all the MBPs. Dedicated video chips have had hardware decoding of mpeg2, h.264 and VC1 for a while now, even the x3100 in the last gen MBs had mpeg2 hardware.

As Arn mentioned, MBPs running windows have been able to take advantage of it

It's not about which version of quicktime you're running, or even just which codec, the acceleration is in the video driver and those kexts are specific to the video chip, so you can't just copy it to an older MBP and expect it to work.

Apple could easily rewrite the video drivers for older MBPs, but whether they will remains to be seen.

 

[Azurael]

You guys are all massively missing the point here. Yes, it is _FACT_ that any Mac with a GeForce 8 series supports hardware H.264 decoding (as only the original G80 which was never used in a Mac doesn't.)

Apple may, or may not chose to enable hardware decoding on the older machines which support it. The likelihood is that since all Macs now use a unified GeForce driver (Geforce.kext) with family specific kexts for GL support (though I would imagine that the 9-series chips will use the same 8xxxGL kext as the 8-series chips as their architecture is the same) Apple would actually have to go out of their way to make the feature not work on older hardware.

And that's (probably) the missing piece (or pieces) of the puzzle. You may have a newer version of Quicktime than the new MB/MBP ship with, but you still have the 10.5.5 driver kexts and system frameworks. Wait for 10.5.6, or try an install from the restore discs for those machines (TDM would be easier as I would guess there are lockouts to prevent you directly installing it on a machine other than the model the disc shipped with.)

 

[Bokito]

There is a hardware decoder, I think that is a known fact. The only question is whether OS X uses it.

Had to make this more clear. I'm wondering if it is a dedicated video decoding chip or is this done by the GPU.

 

[twoodcc]

well, this still doesn't tell us if the new ones actually have h.264 acceleration though, right?

 

[madmaxmedia]

well, this still doesn't tell us if the new ones actually have h.264 acceleration though, right?

It's almost guaranteed. The new MB's are only incrementally better in terms of specs, but are MUCH more efficient at decoding H.264 video. You don't get that sort of performance increase through a some incremental Quicktime code optimization.

Some more elucidation from Anandtech:

http://anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3435&p=11

Both AMD and NVIDIA have fully accelerated H.264 decode on their GPUs and chipsets with integrated graphics, something Intel just recently added with G45. Apple has historically done a terrible job of taking advantage of GPU accelerated video decode features in its OS, which is partly why it took us so long to get somewhat acceptable deinterlacing in Apple's DVD app, despite solid deinterlacing support by the GPU vendors.

Part of the problem is that unlike on the PC platforms, companies like ATI and NVIDIA don't write the entire driver for Mac OS X. The GPU vendors provide the hardware interface portion of the driver but Apple handles much of the rest. It's up to Apple to take advantage of the various features supported by the GPU, and most of them aren't high on Apple's priority list.

With Apple heavily pushing H.264 as the codec of choice and offering high bitrate HD H.264 movie trailers at www.apple.com, the move to NVIDIA's GeForce 9400M appeared to be the perfect time to take advantage of GPU accelerated H.264 decode. For the first time ever, Quicktime will use the GPU for the majority of the decode pipeline when playing back H.264 content.

Another piece of the puzzle would be for someone to test CPU optimization with other apps, such as VLC. In all likelihood CPU utilization would increase dramatically with VLC since it wouldn't support this new hardware video decoding. It doesn't give us an absolute answer, but would be interesting to find out (although I'm pretty sure of the outcome.)

 

[madmaxmedia]

Apple would actually have to go out of their way to make the feature not work on older hardware.

You mean kind of like intentionally crippling apps in the original iPod Touch?

I don't think they will do that, but its far from certain IMO.

 

[Saladinos]

Which MBPs have the potential to support h.264 acceleration? I have a 2nd gen merom and would love to see my processing times come down...

If you have an Intel GPU, you won't get h.264 hardware acceleration.

Intel ClearVideo has acceleration for MPEG-2, VC-1 and WMV9. Not h.264. The newest Intel GPUs do offer it, but Apple decided to switch to NVidia, who've had it for ages.

I hope Apple doesn't forget the Intel GPU users. Better drivers and a more efficient codec for non-accelerated decoding would be great. Good thing Snow Leopard is forcing them to rewrite drivers for x64.

 

[arn]

You guys are all massively missing the point here. Yes, it is _FACT_ that a Apple would actually have to go out of their way to make the feature not work on older hardware.

I actually don't think that's true. I think the new machines have a different version of the video chip than the older ones. So it's not the exact same.

arn

 

[trip1ex]

Apple could easily rewrite the video drivers for older MBPs, but whether they will remains to be seen.

Well that last part is why I doubt these claims. I mean here we have Apple delivering H.264 content via iTunes for years and they've been sitting back not taking advantage of H.264 hardware acceleration on most of their Macs in the past few years?

Ok their hd content is relatively new so maybe they've never felt the need to do it. Still it makes me skeptical.

 

[trip1ex]

All of them that plug into an HDTV to watch anything from their computers. We do that all the time with MBs and MBPs to get full HD.

OK that didn't cross my mind, but I'd have to think watching 1080p content on your HDTV through your MB is heavily niche. Where do you get the 1080p content for starters?

NOt to mention the standard MB hard drive would fill up very quickly at least with true 1080p content.

 

[highjumppudding]

gpu h.264 acceleration will become standard in snow leopard. possibly in a future point release of 10.5. we'll see. but definitely standard in snow leopard. not just for newer cards, the compatibility will date back.

 

[Azurael]

I actually don't think that's true. I think the new machines have a different version of the video chip than the older ones. So it's not the exact same.

arn

All GeForce 8/9 series chips use the same driver and are essentially just scaled up/down versions the same architecture. The most 'different' member of the family is actually the original G80, as found in the 8800GTX/Ultra/GTS 320&640MB, which doesn't have the advanced video processing features (including H.264 acceleration) and even that works with the same driver in OS X (as demonstrated by the hackintosh crowd because Apple don't use it themselves.) I stand by my claim that Apple would have to somehow intentionally cripple the H.264 acceleration in the driver/QuickTime for it not to work on all 8/9-series chips, but we'll see.

 

[layte]

There are differences between the implementation of Purevideo on the 8600 and 9600 GPU's, but it would be incredibly churlish of Apple not to activate the video decode engine found in the 8600M chips.

http://en.expreview.com/2007/12/04/born-for-hd-first-review-of-g98-8400gs.html?page=3