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Cromulent. Why the hate on the Rocketman? Speaking only for myself, I have found Rocketman to offer good information around here for quite awhile.

It seems where ZFS will affect the average user, like myself will be in the easy addition of extra hard drive space when we start to build up our war chests of videos and other media. Seems like it will eliminate a lot of decision making. We suddenly don't have to think if we should get the 320 gig, or the 160 or the 500. Running out of space...easily add to the pool and without 20 gazillion icons of hard drives on our desktops.

That is correct, right?

Here is another scenario for ZFS that will benefit the average user. Creation of filesystems is trivial in ZFS, with low overhead and the ability to share one storage pool amongst many filesystems. The classic example is to create a new filesystem for every user, but that doesn't help much on a single-user Mac.

But consider this: the average Mac might contain five main kinds of data: movies, pictures, music, documents and preferences. Each one of these types has different properties. Movies, pictures and music don't compress well (they are already compressed), but documents and preferences may compress well. ZFS supports on the fly compression. Wouldn't it be good to use automatic compression on the documents and preferences, but avoid wasting the effort on the other types? Create a different filesystem for each type, and you can enable or disable compression wherever it is appropriate.

But there is more. Music files tend not to change... I'd venture the main changes to the music file system are file creations. This makes snapshots unnecessary. Also, while preferences do change, they tend to change in trivial ways, so why bother taking snapshots of your preferences? If you want to preserve the states of files, you can take a snapshot at any time. With separate filesystems for each data type, you can snapshot only those things that change, only when you want to preserve them. There might not ben that much overhead even if you included your preferences and music in every snapshot on a single filesystem, because the files are either small or stagnant. However, splitting up your filesystems keeps organization of these snapshots easier.

There are other benefits, like per-filesystem quotas. Maybe you are a developer, and you are working on a program that generates a lot of output. You don't want this output filling the whole disk. Set a quota on the filesystem that will store the output, to avoid this problem.

In my case, I used to have three partitions on my Mac: one main partition, for the system; one partition for the /Users hierarchy, and one partition for /opt, which is used by the MacPorts system. This kept everything separate and well-organized, and allowed me to use case-sensitivity on my /Users partition without doing the same with the system files. This was nice, but it had a problem: I had to choose fixed sizes for each filesystem. Thus, while I had 45 GB of 55 GB free in my /Users partition, and 7 GB of 10 GB free in the /opt partition, I was down to the last few GB in the system partition, which was giving me headaches. I had to reformat and reinstall, combining /opt and the system partition, while shrinking my home directory a bit, to give more space to the system partition. ZFS avoids this issue, allowing me to create arbitrary filesystems for organizational peace of mind, without actually forcing me to subdivide the available space.
 
...they've already said it's not even going to be writable in 10.5.0. It doesn't surprise me at all, considering how important it is to be sure that filesystems are heavily tested.

I know, but at least let me dream a little, can you?
 
Well thats what they would tell us... but remember to factor in the iphone 2.0 delay... So i'd say october 2010.

I am sick and tired of your delay prophecies. Do you have anything else to contribute to this forum? If you are here to vent about product delays, go somewhere else.
 
regarding the wikpedia description - does this actually virtually add storage? It says that it would take an incredible amount of time to run out of storage, so does that mean that with my 160gb imac and 250gb external drive that I won't have to add anymore storage???

The old sectoring meme is gone, so all the actual space on the drive is used under ZFS, so yes the typical user will experience "more space" because more files will fit on it.

This scheme also improves access speeds and lowers save errors. ZFS is a Sun invention and Jobs identified it early as "insanely great", and made a deal with Sun. Why Apple has not just purchased Sun at some point I will never know.

Microsoft will of course try to copy it and who knows how many of the lemmings will use it.

But Time Machine (the one demoed was a "dummy") is basicly a GUI on ZFS. With some of Apples other services layered on ZFS, such as scripting, searching, multi-homing, etc, this thing will really be leveraged to interesting applications and adoption via 10.5 will assure a large immediate user base.

All your base are belong to us.

Rocketman

I felt there was not hate but healthy skepticism by Cromulent.
 
The old sectoring meme is gone, so all the actual space on the drive is used under ZFS, so yes the typical user will experience "more space" because more files will fit on it.

This scheme also improves access speeds and lowers save errors. ZFS is a Sun invention and Jobs identified it early as "insanely great", and made a deal with Sun. Why Apple has not just purchased Sun at some point I will never know.

Microsoft will of course try to copy it and who knows how many of the lemmings will use it.

But Time Machine (the one demoed was a "dummy") is basicly a GUI on ZFS. With some of Apples other services layered on ZFS, such as scripting, searching, multi-homing, etc, this thing will really be leveraged to interesting applications and adoption via 10.5 will assure a large immediate user base.

All your base are belong to us.

Rocketman

I felt there was not hate but healthy skepticism by Cromulent.
How exactly can Time Machine be a GUI of ZFS. For ZFS to be used in this, it would HAVE to be the filesystem for the entire system. Being as that it is a brand new port to Mac AND it's only going to be Read Only. It isn't possible. ZFS isn't layered on top of HFS+
 
read and write

How exactly can Time Machine be a GUI of ZFS. For ZFS to be used in this, it would HAVE to be the filesystem for the entire system. Being as that it is a brand new port to Mac AND it's only going to be Read Only. It isn't possible. ZFS isn't layered on top of HFS+

Don't you read. apple states

"In the release notes, Apple confirms that the original release of Mac OS X Leopard (10.5) will only offer Read-Only ZFS. As a result, no ZFS pools or filesystems can be modified or created under 10.5.0. This developer's preview enables full read/write capability, including the creation/destruction of ZFS pools and filesystems."

it's read and write. we will expect read write within a month from release
 
Don't you read. apple states

"In the release notes, Apple confirms that the original release of Mac OS X Leopard (10.5) will only offer Read-Only ZFS. As a result, no ZFS pools or filesystems can be modified or created under 10.5.0. This developer's preview enables full read/write capability, including the creation/destruction of ZFS pools and filesystems."

it's read and write. we will expect read write within a month from release
I did read it. So we can expect it within a month from release. So what? That means we are unable to use Time Machine until ZFS gets write functionality? What about all of the demos for time machine earlier in the year? I guess they actually used a time machine, went into the future, got ZFS read/write working AND made MacOS run completey off of it for the conference. I'm still sticking with it's not being used for it, or anytime in the near future. The filesystem is still under constant changes in the opensolaris developer release, there is no way Apple is using this as a primary filesystem until MUCH further down the road. I'd love to hear about how much experience you have with ZFS, to make any type of remarks on it. So calm yourself with the big bold text, smartass.
 
I did read it. So we can expect it within a month from release. So what? That means we are unable to use Time Machine until ZFS gets write functionality? What about all of the demos for time machine earlier in the year? I guess they actually used a time machine, went into the future, got ZFS read/write working AND made MacOS run completey off of it for the conference. I'm still sticking with it's not being used for it, or anytime in the near future. The filesystem is still under constant changes in the opensolaris developer release, there is no way Apple is using this as a primary filesystem until MUCH further down the road. I'd love to hear about how much experience you have with ZFS, to make any type of remarks on it. So calm yourself with the big bold text, smartass.

I remember an article (like a year ago) where they were speculating that Apple was using ZFS for Time Machine and they asked Apple directly. Apple said that all of the features of Time Machine are accomplished with some add on's to HFS+. People have been running Time Machine with no ZFS until this update so it will be running (on HFS+) on release day for sure.
 
I remember an article (like a year ago) where they were speculating that Apple was using ZFS for Time Machine and they asked Apple directly. Apple said that all of the features of Time Machine are accomplished with some add on's to HFS+. People have been running Time Machine with no ZFS until this update so it will be running (on HFS+) on release day for sure.
Which just further proves my point ;)
 
Hell yeah. Anyone who installs a fresh OS like that is just begging to be a test mule. 10.5.2 at least. Nothing earlier.

Now now... no need to be name calling here...

There are people like me, for example who like to ride technology by grabbing it by the horns. We are the Daredevil type, technological life is not the same unless you are riding the thunder... So there is no need to call us beasts of burden or Asses. I at least dont have to resort to 3rd party Tech Support to go around my issues... And I do it, because I can and want to, ok pumpkin?

So dont call us names to cover your insecurities.

I have been running 9a559 as my main OS in my productivity Mac, with no major complications that could affects anyone's working environment. I have a strong belief that 9a559 is the Release Candidate and Apple is being Mum about it.

What Rocketman says about 10.5.0, 10.5.1 being the public betas of the OS is not meant as the OS is a PoS. This is normal for all software. Even software that has undergone public beta testing, has a rough time on their 1.0 versions.

I dont care about that sort of thing... I will get Leopard 10.5.0 when it comes out, and will get the rest of the versions as well, i guess its just my style...

Peace all!

Kil
 
ZFS + Drobo = Storage Sweetness

I recently aquired one of these Drobo units (for those who don't know walk yourselves to http://www.drobo.com). I have been using Drobo as my NAS (well in conjunction with my Airport Extreme Gygabit Router), for my house. I use Macs, my GF uses Vista... (its her work...), but we all use drobo to access our stuff. Our Drobo is hooked to two 500Gb SATA Drives... I am going to buy a 3rd 500G drive in Xmas, and a last one in or after February, to have a full 2Tb of storage.

Drobo works almost as ZFS... but i can only imagine how my Drobo will work with ZFS as its filesystem... its going to be sweet.

Kil
 
I recently aquired one of these Drobo units (for those who don't know walk yourselves to http://www.drobo.com). I have been using Drobo as my NAS (well in conjunction with my Airport Extreme Gygabit Router), for my house. I use Macs, my GF uses Vista... (its her work...), but we all use drobo to access our stuff. Our Drobo is hooked to two 500Gb SATA Drives... I am going to buy a 3rd 500G drive in Xmas, and a last one in or after February, to have a full 2Tb of storage.

Drobo works almost as ZFS... but i can only imagine how my Drobo will work with ZFS as its filesystem... its going to be sweet.

Kil
Can you access those disk independently from the unit? Or can you only look at just the RAID volume? Because it becomes a case of the ZFS error stuff on top of the RAID error stuff. While it can be done, it's generally not advised from what I've read on the opensolaris communities.

Up to read 22MB/s write 20MB/s and USB 2.0 :( Eww.
 
A company that faces opposition from an OS with a LOT of glass and shiny stuff that is quickly overtaking its main product...

Just to be clear, you're talking about Vista, right? And you're saying that vista is quickly overtaking OSX?

Is that a joke?

10.5.0 is for all practical purposes a public beta. 10.5.1 will be worth installing for bleeding edge users. 10.5.2 will probably be installed on shipping hardware (if 10.5.0 or 10.5.1 is, that would be "bad"), and will still require several software updates to use reasonably.

You don't think they will install .0 or .1 on hardware? That would mean that new machines wouldn't get the OS for weeks or months, which is pretty much unimaginable. Has apple EVER released a version of OSX where they've skipped over installing the .0 release on hardware (much less .1 as well)?
 
Just to be clear, you're talking about Vista, right? And you're saying that vista is quickly overtaking OSX?

Is that a joke?
It won't be long until Vista's market share is higher than OSX's...
 
Vista can bomb and still be higher than OS X's market share (and Vista did overtake OS X a few months ago).

I never said Vista deserved it, I just said that OSX was competing with Vista and its glass effects etc...
 
I never said Vista deserved it, I just said that OSX was competing with Vista and its glass effects etc...

And I am simply saying that Vista would overtake OS X in marketshare, no matter how well it is doing. Unfortunately, comparing marketshare doesn't make the Mac look good in any light... Linux outranks us in most circles.
 
For a future version of OSX, and a future version of a Mac File System I expect the hanging problem to be solved. There is nothing worse than knowing that you have such a fast system with so much potential and power behind it being run by such a sophisticated OS and then you run a program that makes heavy use of the disc and everything just freezes and becomes unresponsive for minutes at a time.

A multi tasking OS should never, ever, ever freeze. Ever! So why is it that OSX does it so often, and so badly when disk read/write operations are involved.

It happens on Windows too. As far as I can tell, its because IDE interfaces still require the CPU to handle the disk transfer. On SCSI devices this is a non-issue.
 
It won't be long until Vista's market share is higher than OSX's...

Yeah, but that's not "rising", that's just because windows already has like 90% market share and Vista is mostly replacing existing XP installs. It's silly to call any version of windows "rising" when they're losing marketshare overall (osx and other OS's are growing faster than windows).

"Glass effects" are irrelevant to the situation, 99% of vista sales are simply sales that would have gone to XP if they hadn't released vista, and if anything those "glass effects" and other pointless things may hurt them more than they help.
 
How exactly can Time Machine be a GUI of ZFS. For ZFS to be used in this, it would HAVE to be the filesystem for the entire system. Being as that it is a brand new port to Mac AND it's only going to be Read Only. It isn't possible. ZFS isn't layered on top of HFS+

The application "Time Machine" has a GUI. It recognizes HFS+ and ZFS discs. The TM application emulates some of the features of ZFS for HFS+ discs where ZFS is not available, thus implementing the application Time machine's designated features.

ZFS itself can use the TM app GUI but also can be controlled by command line or other tools.

What I find interesting is the Apple value added implementation of ZFS, makes its features accesable to and subject to Apple developed "services" within OSX.

Rocketman
 
Time Machine is a GUI for a revisioning backup system (much like subversion). It doesn't rely on specific features of ZFS so TM is not dependent on ZFS.
 
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