Apple Sets April 11 Deadline for U.S. Employees to Return to Office

[LonestarOne]

Washing hands have been proven to prevent many infectious diseases. It's not the only solution, but it's part of better hygiene. Ignoring hand washing is like ignoring seat belts just because you have airbags.

“During the initial stages of the pandemic there was concern about surface transmission. However, latest research suggests that this is unlikely to be a major route of transmission as although SARS-CoV-2 can persist for days on inanimate surfaces, attempts to culture the virus from these surfaces were unsuccessful.” — The Lancet Respiratory Medicine

COVID-19 transmission—up in the air

As we approach the end of 2020, and a year since the outbreak of COVID-19 began, cases are increasing again. We have learnt a lot about SARS-CoV-2 and our ability to test for and manage COVID-19 has improved, but ongoing debate remains about how SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted.

www.thelancet.com

Washing your hands won’t prevent you from getting Covid. We know which measures are effective and which aren’t. Those handwashing stations are pure theater, like airport security.

 

[Premium1]

Looks like a cool place to work and probably has amazing amenities. However maybe a middle ground should be met (3 days office, 2 at home).

They talked about this if you actually read the memo....

 

[icwhatudidthere]

Plus new hires not only get the salary they sign up for, but there is also training and onboarding costs to the company. Replacing people is not as cheap as some people think it is.

Yeah, plus sign on bonuses. Now do all that for 15 people in one year, while you've had record profits in the past two years which means lots more work to do. HR and management are gonna have to decide which is cheaper, give people the flexibility to work from home as they seem to want or force them in the office and pay for their eventual departure.

Anyone arguing that employees are more replaceable than ever is missing the fact that also means employees are more mobile than ever.

 

[I7guy]

Which often entails moving long distances, buying / selling houses, uprooting families, finding a new job for the spouse…

People who lost their jobs because they refused to vaccinate, wear masks, or social distance are treated like martyrs, but people who have to quit because the company no longer supports remote work options get no sympathy whatever?

Think this is a straw man. But I have sympathy for those who lost a job a couldn’t find work. Not those who can’t get their life together to do their job.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah, plus sign on bonuses. Now do all that for 15 people in one year, while you've had record profits in the past two years which means lots more work to do. HR and management are gonna have to decide which is cheaper, give people the flexibility to work from home as they seem to want or force them in the office and pay for their eventual departure.

And get a replacement that is more suitable to the company.

Anyone arguing that employees are more replaceable than ever is missing the fact that also means employees are more mobile than ever.

It also means employers can end up with a more suitable employee. And a job seeking employee can wind up in a better situation for them. Win-win.

 

[mikethemartian]

Two years into the pandemic, there is still no evidence that skin contact is a significant source of Covid transmission. I roll my eyes when stores put our hand sanitizer, which is purely a feel-good measure, but refuse to require masks. It’s like putting up hex symbols for fire prevention, instead of installing a sprinkler system.

I have no doubt that Covid isn’t transmissible from skin to skin. It isn’t going to go though the skin of your hands and infect you. But I heard long ago that most colds are transmitted when someone has the virus or bacteria on their hand and then they rub their nose compared to getting it from someone sneezing. So I’m curious if this research about skin contact is taking into account people rubbing their noses afterwards with their hands or do they just mean that the virus can’t penetrate your skin. I would have already assumed the latter.

 

[mikethemartian]

Curious how many corporate workers have moved away so this isn’t even feasible.

I actually started working remotely in January 2020 before the pandemic and was laid off later that year and joined a company that went fully remote because of the pandemic and has seen tremendous growth since then. We’re able to hire talent from anywhere in the world and we’ve somehow managed to develop a culture working remotely and a process that is so much more lean and efficient that we only work four day work weeks.

We’ve had growing pains as we transition from a small business to a large business but overall I really enjoy my job and I could never go back to working in person. I roll out of bed and go straight to work and then I finish and I’m immediately at home with my family. It’s nice seeing my wife and kids during the day (wife runs an in-home daycare) and not being tempted to eat out. I filled up the gas in my car today for the first time in a month and was like “Yikes!”

Idk how you people still do it knowing that there are so many job shortages and you could get on at a remote place so easily. I guess the key is finding a place where they don’t micro manage you or install invasive monitoring software? Mutual respect is key and if you get your work done they shouldn’t hassle you.

I worked a contract last year for one of the major companies that publishes electrical engineering design and simulation software and our whole team was remote with different people working from different parts of the US. We even had one guy in Russia although that might have been effected by the war.

 

[sirozha]

Or else...?

Quit. This discussion has been going on for a while now. Cook should have burned down the spaceship during the pandemic. They are going to drag people in just to fill the empty chairs. Smart engineers will quit.

 

[sirozha]

I will gladly take a job from any employee that cries trying to stay home, I will single handedly fix apple’s ios issues. Hire me apple

Why don’t you apply and go through their interview process?

 

[SenorWhyMe]

Why don’t you apply and go through their interview process?

it’s a joke buddy i already got a job i like and am self employed

 

[sirozha]

it’s a joke buddy i already got a job i like and am self employed

Right.

 

[Dozer_Zaibatsu]

If people can work from home, the cost of living in the Bay Area looks a lot less attractive. I suspect a lot of people are going to figure this out.

 

[I7guy]

Quit. This discussion has been going on for a while now. Cook should have burned down the spaceship during the pandemic. They are going to drag people in just to fill the empty chairs. Smart engineers will quit.

I agree. Let the employment market do the talking and we'll see where Apple ends up.

 

[Abazigal]

Quit. This discussion has been going on for a while now. Cook should have burned down the spaceship during the pandemic. They are going to drag people in just to fill the empty chairs. Smart engineers will quit.

So what if they quit? People come and go all the time. People leaving Apple may not be a bad thing if it allows for constant renewal of talent or when you replace unhappy, disgruntled employees with happier, more motivated ones.

Apple had no qualms about firing Scott Forstall when Tim Cook deemed him a threat to their internal corporate culture. If there has been any impact to Apple's overall long-term success, I am not seeing or feeling it. If anything, Apple was better off without him.

Or in another scenario, Basecamp (the company that makes that $100/year email app whose founder loves to dunk on Apple on Twitter) recently lost 30% of their workforce over a controversial policy forbidding discussion of politics at work. They have since replaced these employees, and are reportedly doing better than ever.

I have no doubt that smart engineers are much-sought after by tech companies, but I don't believe in the idea of a superstar employee who is able to make or break a company, much less one the size of Apple. Intel poaching some of Apple's own chip design engineers may not mean anything if the engineer is not allowed to replicate said process at Intel because it would run counter to their business model or corporate culture. Not to mention that sometimes, these engineers are able to do good work not only because of their own talent and experience, but also because the culture and structure of the company allows them to do so.

I think the greater risk were if Apple were to jeopardise their own design-led corporate culture, and force themselves to operate in a manner which the company is not designed for, just to cater to the whims and fancy of a few employees and keep them happy. Like...why? This is probably a small handful of people we are talking about who have the credentials to talk terms to companies and insist that they be allowed to work on their own terms. It's not like we are talking about half the workforce resigning en-mass at one go. I doubt there are even that many other companies offering remote work who are able to absorb all these people, much less hire them at their preferred salary and perk scale.

I think the laws of supply and demand will naturally work themselves out.

 

[Ethosik]

So what if they quit? People come and go all the time. People leaving Apple may not be a bad thing if it allows for constant renewal of talent or when you replace unhappy, disgruntled employees with happier, more motivated ones.

Apple had no qualms about firing Scott Forstall when Tim Cook deemed him a threat to their internal corporate culture. If there has been any impact to Apple's overall long-term success, I am not seeing or feeling it. If anything, Apple was better off without him.

Or in another scenario, Basecamp (the company that makes that $100/year email app whose founder loves to dunk on Apple on Twitter) recently lost 30% of their workforce over a controversial policy forbidding discussion of politics at work. They have since replaced these employees, and are reportedly doing better than ever.

I have no doubt that smart engineers are much-sought after by tech companies, but I don't believe in the idea of a superstar employee who is able to make or break a company, much less one the size of Apple. Intel poaching some of Apple's own chip design engineers may not mean anything if the engineer is not allowed to replicate said process at Intel because it would run counter to their business model or corporate culture. Not to mention that sometimes, these engineers are able to do good work not only because of their own talent and experience, but also because the culture and structure of the company allows them to do so.

I think the greater risk were if Apple were to jeopardise their own design-led corporate culture, and force themselves to operate in a manner which the company is not designed for, just to cater to the whims and fancy of a few employees and keep them happy. Like...why? This is probably a small handful of people we are talking about who have the credentials to talk terms to companies and insist that they be allowed to work on their own terms. It's not like we are talking about half the workforce resigning en-mass at one go. I doubt there are even that many other companies offering remote work who are able to absorb all these people, much less hire them at their preferred salary and perk scale.

I think the laws of supply and demand will naturally work themselves out.

A large turnover does not help with software quality either. Having to replace senior devs (senior as a sense of ones that have been there for a while) with fresh developers, whatever their experience may be, will still have negative impacts because the new people won't know the ins and outs of the code.

So if potentially we see a lot of these devs quit, I would not be surprised if we get more buggy code as a result.

 

[Abazigal]

A large turnover does not help with software quality either. Having to replace senior devs (senior as a sense of ones that have been there for a while) with fresh developers, whatever their experience may be, will still have negative impacts because the new people won't know the ins and outs of the code.

So if potentially we see a lot of these devs quit, I would not be surprised if we get more buggy code as a result.

Well, if the past two years was supposed to be a performance appraisal of the effectiveness of working from home for Apple's software engineers, I struggle to see the benefit. One could even point to the lacklustre iOS 15 or the delayed universal control as signs that point to cracks starting to appear at Apple because of the toll that remote work has been having on the overall efficiency of its workforce.

It's one thing to desire remote work for one's own personal reasons (eg: not needed to spend time commuting to work; being able to live in an area with lower costs). As an individual, I can totally get behind that. One should not conflate that with being able to do better quality work or this arrangement somehow being better for me, the end user. And this is where Apple is perfectly justified in putting their foot down and saying "I don't think this is allowing us as a company to make the best possible products, everyone get back to the office right now".

 

[Ethosik]

Well, if the past two years was supposed to be a performance appraisal of the effectiveness of working from home for Apple's software engineers, I struggle to see the benefit. One could even point to the lacklustre iOS 15 or the delayed universal control as signs that point to cracks starting to appear at Apple because of the toll that remote work has been having on the overall efficiency of its workforce.

It's one thing to desire remote work for one's own personal reasons (eg: not needed to spend time commuting to work; being able to live in an area with lower costs). As an individual, I can totally get behind that. One should not conflate that with being able to do better quality work or this arrangement somehow being better for me, the end user. And this is where Apple is perfectly justified in putting their foot down and saying "I don't think this is allowing us as a company to make the best possible products, everyone get back to the office right now".

So we are still going to keep ignoring the severe bugs and issues Apple has had when everyone was forced to be in a mini cubicle all day? You know the Catalina kernel panics, even as far back as Snow Leopard deleting my user data issues, or when Apple didn't put the correct firmware in place and made the i9 laptops throttle, or Apple's horrible attitude with the butterfly keyboards, or Apple's non stop pursuit of thinness which made the 2016-2020 Macbook Pros frustrating to use? There were cracks back then too. But no Apple ONLY had issues JUST NOW since they are all remote?

Is it absolutely proven that those issues you stated are the 100% result of remote work and would NOT have been an issue if they were in the office? Or is it just that Apple has had problem for years? People are just blaming the work from home when we have had MANY issues and mistakes from Apple over the years and even under Steve Jobs. There is no proof at all that working from home is the cause of anything.

 

[Packers1958]

Get back to work you bums!

 

[Arran]

Quit. This discussion has been going on for a while now. Cook should have burned down the spaceship during the pandemic. They are going to drag people in just to fill the empty chairs. Smart engineers will quit.

Maybe convert the spaceship into condos? They'd sell out in no time.

That would get the "trophy" real-estate off Apple's books and it could start thinking clearly again - like it used to. It could return to challenging the establishment instead of trying to one-up it.

The building's a monument. Monuments are for the dead.

 

[CasinoOwl]

I think a hybrid model is the way to go. As much as work in an office can be a drag, it also provides real face-to-face contact, and in many ways a more natural way of interacting. People can still skip the drive and stay in their jammies on the at-home days.

 

[Abazigal]

If people can work from home, the cost of living in the Bay Area looks a lot less attractive. I suspect a lot of people are going to figure this out.

Part of the reason why tech companies in Silicon Valley are willing to pay so much is precisely to offset the high cost of living. Accepting remote work from another part of the world could mean having to settle for lower wages in this regard. Not necessarily a bad thing, assuming your standard of living is preserved, but definitely something to bear in mind.

 

[k1121j]

I think is funny how some people think work at home is a right. ? here’s a thought watch out if companies start hiring remote you just got a lot more competition for your job.

 

[MRrainer]

I believe work from home does work, for certain stuff. But if you have to talk to a lot of people, then having them close-by comes in handy. We were not really a WFH-company (it was available on request, but people weren't exactly encouraged to ask for it...) before 2020, but have so far done OK-ish with it.

The larger the company, the better it might work, with jobs being more siloed. But Apple may not be the typical large company in the sense that they try not to let project-teams get too big.

These teams change as people move from project to project but for every team, it first has to find itself. That really works best in a physical office - so much communication relies on emotions and "feelings" that can hardly be expressed in a FaceTime call - or again only with a lot of talk (that's why these usually take longer).

So, I totally understand where Tim Cook is coming from - but as I said, the working-in-the-office is very likely the least of the problem. It's the commute. The time you spend on the road. That is time you never get back.

While somebody without a family might want to put up living in a dorm like a Foxconn factory worker (for some time), most people with a family won't really have the stomach for that. Usually, after wife (or husband) and kids enter the stage, they become your most important project, not something at work.


A little thought experiment:

Given one wanted to build a huge container-village for each of the 12k Apple Park employees.
I.e. one shipping container converted to a "single-room-apartment" for one employee.

12k = 30*20*20

That means 30 containers on the base, 20 containers high and 20 containers long.

As a shipping container is about 2.59x2.43x12.2 (metric), that results in a sort-of borg-cube of:

77.7*48.6*244 (metric). Excluding stuff like stairs and facilities of course.

That said, living in the very inside might be a bit claustrophobic and not for the faint of heart - but people have been putting up with it for a cheap cruise, so it seems doable ;-)

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I'll work there! Bring it on...

But, just waiting for the next variant. Never count a virus out. Look at the 1918 Flu. The fourth wave supposedly killed more than the other waves combined. Smart companies will recognize that potential, and be ready to shutdown and pivot again quickly and will also look at the research, and be taking the lead to protect their employees and their families. It really very much could happen again, or not...

 

[TheRealTVGuy]

It essentially amounts to a pay cut for most people given the added living expenses of being near the office (which in Apple's case is in a very expensive area), commuting to work every day, and arranging care for their children or elderly parents.

As an employer, even if you’re working remotely I expect you to be working between 9-5, not taking care of children, your parents, taking extended breaks, or playing Xbox. I’m not paying someone for 40 hours of work if they only actually work 30. Even if “I got all of my tasks completed.”