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I think everyone overlooks how powerful $100 billion in liquid assets is.

Demand will eventually taper off and most likely 30% margins will tighten but a $100 billion in cash will certainly see Apple through a couple of rainy days

Once again, the disaster scenario is touted as some kind of positive use of cash reserves. Just so everyone is clear, for Apple to have any reason to dip into their cash reserves to fund operations, they'd have to go from being immensely profitable to losing money. That wouldn't be a "rainy day" it would be a calamity of epic proportions. The cash a company accumulates is called capital, and capital is essentially useless it is plowed back into the company's business. It is of little use just sitting on the books. Building up this huge cash reserve was one of Steve's many eccentricities. It's not necessarily good business.
 
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Obviously you know nothing about investing. Proof of purchase is irrelevant. I make my own decisions and don't advocate investment action for others. Avatar is claiming expertise based on a fictional gain.
 
Can you two take this to PM please? No one cares which one of you are millionaires and you two look ridiculous arguing back and forth.
 
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Obviously you know nothing about investing. Proof of purchase is irrelevant. I make my own decisions and don't advocate investment action for others. Avatar is claiming expertise based on a fictional gain.

Like I said, all that is besides the point. Anyone that takes financial advice from someone solely based on the internet forums, specifically macrumors, isn't the smartest. Avatar isn't forcing your hand to do something, take it or leave it for what it is! Go ahead and say I know nothing about investing based on all my knowledge I've tried to share about it - zero btw and call out Avatar on his organizational skills and his lack of ability to remember is dates from 12 years ago. I'm done with this, I made my point and there is nothing left to say.
 
I encourage you to dig into Apple's financials. Last quarter the "Americas" region counted for 37% of sales (excluding Apple retail) and this includes both North and South America.

Also, from last quarter's conference call, Tim Cook named China as growing the fastest for Apple and Brazil is the second fastest.

Having an Apple product is like drinking water in USA. However, considering markets worldwide, Apple doesn't sell too much as appears to be. Actually, Apple numbers look good because people from USA consumes a lot, the importing taxes for electronics are pretty low so every american has a bunch of useful and useless gadgets. Although they're expensive by the american standards, Apple products are pretty affordable for the average consumer. This isn't true outside USA. Here in Brazil (and I presume this happens in all BRICs and in some manner to Europe), Apple products aren't so competitive or even known by consumers.
 
To address an earlier point about Apple's cash hoard... Let's say I were to include them in a fair market valuation of Apple. I'd have to look at the different slices differently, because none of that cash is counted as working capital. So, if I were to, how would I go about it?

As a business analyst, I have to look at the different buckets differently. It's not $100 billion in liquid cash. Instead, we have:

1. $67.5b in long term investments.
2. $19.8b in short term investments.
3. $10.3b in cash and equivalents.

None of these buckets are likely to get spent on any operating activities. They're the result of retained earnings, i.e. after operating expenditures, R&D, property/plant/equip, etc. So they cannot be counted along with working capital in an operating performance analysis.

You're free, as a speculator, to apply whatever logic you want to finding what you think is fair market value, of course. But for anyone who wants to make a conservative M&A-style estimate of fair value, you have to look at the three buckets like this, at least on a very cursory glance:

Both Apple's long and short term investments are about 50% in corporate securities. It would be unlikely for their fund managers to consistently beat the S&P but assuming they matched the S&P's long term performance, the rate here would be around 9% on $40 billion. So add about $3.6b, or about $3.90 per share to the first year of a multi-year Discounted Cash Flow analysis, and discount subsequent years by the weighted average cost of capital (WACC).

The other 50% is mostly in fixed yields, commercial paper, etc. that might net them around 3%-ish after management expenses... or about a buck twenty ($1.20) a share in first year, and again discounted year over year using WACC from there.

Then you've got the $10b in cash and equivalents... this is going to yield next to nothing. So you might as well exclude this.

Any other items listed in Cash from Financing Activities in the Cash Flow Statement are purely irrelevant as they don't tell you as much about Apple's operating ability as they do how much Apple might offset shortfalls on the operating side with disposition of some liquid assets from time to time. Every company can do this to manipulate results, so it doesn't really tell us anything about Apple's value as a unique company with a strategic competitive advantage in the marketplace.

So what does this give us? It certainly doesn't put Apple within the ballpark of current market price. But like I said, if someone wants to take the riskier route of purchasing Apple at a premium rather than waiting to acquire them at a discount, that's their decision and their risk to take.

----------

The stock could be volatile tomorrow. Apple is announcing their decision on their cash balance half an hour before the market opens:

http://allthingsd.com/20120318/appl...ce-tomorrow-morning/?reflink=ATD_yahoo_ticker

Link points nowhere.
 
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Whilst I see your point: they've only just started selling in China. China is a MASSIVE market.

Yes, it's a massive market... of very low incomes. Just because it's a massive market overall doesn't mean that every person in China is in Apple's core demographic. There are 370 million Americans and only a segment of them can afford $300 phones and $2500 laptops. China's income distribution isn't particularly better.

Also, entering a new market doesn't mean that the people there haven't already got their wallets tied up in other products, necessities as well as luxuries... and the amount of discretionary income may be a lot narrower there than it is here (consider what factory workers get paid there). At certain price points, consumption of mobile phones could be high... but what does that mean? Apple's never going to release the equivalent of a Motorola Razr or Nokia 6800.

Within the space of consumers who are in the income brackets that can afford mobile electronics, Apple also has to contend with the much lower cost of Asian competing products that are made and sold on that side of the pacific, the breadth of brands of which heavily saturate asian markets... so it's not a cakewalk and there's already plenty of share of wallet being occupied by those competitors.

China for all its size does about 1/5th of the total consumer spending of the United States, with three times the population. On electronics alone, America outspends China 15 times over. Apple can adjust their prices a little to meet the demand and income curves of some developed countries, but they couldn't reduce their prices below cost and therefore there's a huge segment of Chinese consumers who would never be part of the pool of potential Apple customers. So to Apple, China is an emerging opportunity but many times smaller than the total market of all goods in China.
 
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Yes, it's a massive market. But just because it's a massive market overall doesn't mean that every person in China is in Apple's core demographic. There are 370 million Americans and only a segment of them can afford $300 phones and $2500 laptops. China's income distribution isn't particularly better.

I point you to the recent MacRumors news story
China Surpasses U.S. iOS and Android Activations For First Time

Not to mention that China has over 4 times the population of of the united states, and is growing faster.

It would not surprise me in the least if China becomes a bigger market for Apple products than the United States.
 
Yes, it's a massive market... of very low incomes. Just because it's a massive market overall doesn't mean that every person in China is in Apple's core demographic. There are 370 million Americans and only a segment of them can afford $300 phones and $2500 laptops. China's income distribution isn't particularly better.

....


China for all its size does about 1/5th of the total consumer spending of the United States, with three times the population. On electronics alone, America outspends China 15 times over.

See above post re: apple activations in China.

Also, cheap chinese knockoff gear is available and competes with Apple elsewhere in the world too.

Also, given the state of the US vs Chinese economies (and more to the point, if china start calling in the USA's debts - China = massive surplus to the US, US = massive debt to China), I suspect that growth in China will be ramping up a LOT faster than it will in the US any time soon, and they have the numbers to provide a simply massive maket. If even 5% of their population buy an apple device, that is still 65 million users.
 
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In developing countries, iPhone and iPad can actually save people money. They purchase these post-PC devices instead of getting a computer.

I point you to the recent MacRumors news story
China Surpasses U.S. iOS and Android Activations For First Time

Not to mention that China has over 4 times the population of of the united states, and is growing faster.

It would not surprise me in the least if China becomes a bigger market for Apple products than the United States.
 
Nokia is announcing Android line up soon

Shares will be arounbd 150 USD in about 2-3 years.

It happened before and it will happen again.

Nokia is and shall continue to be the biigest and the best.
 
See above post re: apple activations in China.

Also, cheap chinese knockoff gear is available and competes with Apple elsewhere in the world too.

Also, given the state of the US vs Chinese economies (and more to the point, if china start calling in the USA's debts - China = massive surplus to the US, US = massive debt to China), I suspect that growth in China will be ramping up a LOT faster than it will in the US any time soon, and they have the numbers to provide a simply massive maket. If even 5% of their population buy an apple device, that is still 65 million users.

What Im driving at is this: If you want to factor in that kind of opportunity, there's "oh China's a huge market! lots of opportunity! The stock will go massive!" kind of talk, and then there's analysis. So arriving at a realistic figure to plug in to forecasting growth involves quantifying that pipeline and doing so specifically for factors relevant to Apple's growth.

Even though the market for electronics could expand, it raises the question of what does that growth look like, what segments is it going to happen in. I don't see a lot of specific discussion around that here... and it's something I'd do on my own anyway.

But that's only future speculation... most of what I've discussed in here has been around what Apple's current enterprise value is based on their current state. What happens five years from now is speculation. But if the current state shows that the market right now is overpricing them relative to their actual value, then that doesn't give me a margin of safety in Graham's terms.

I'd rather wait until a market opportunity substantially underprices Apple, or another well-managed company that I can snatch up... and not worry so much about trying to pinpoint what the global markets might do in the future because I know I've already snagged an issue at a discount.

The point I'm making there is this: Imagine I have 10 securities. Imagine I bought three of them at a premium to their present value. Imagine I bought the other seven at a discount. They're all relatively equal in terms of their operating capabilities because all the other selection criteria I used are the same... most of them have pretty good operating cash flows, strong management, low debt, positive quick and current ratios... etc.

Now, as the market tends to move in herds, in a good market most of these issues will advance. But the ones I purchased at a discount tend toward larger gains over my cost basis than the ones for which I paid a premium. And I'm not talking about cutting it close. Even if you think Apple has tremendous opportunity, it's not a huge margin of safety you've got there when that additional opportunity isn't going to be worth $100-200 billion in MARGINAL growth in the near term... put another way: What's the probability of Apple doubling annual revenues in one year based on entry into one market that's 1/15th the size of US electronics consumption? It's not happening but if you think it is, calculate those odds... I'm not banking on it. It could happen, but lots of things could happen. That's not what I'm after.

The idea that the value approach to portfolio management is outdated has been chirped by Wall Street transaction fee collectors for decades... and for decades they've been proven wrong by value investors who beat the S&P year in and year out.

So, if someone wants Apple because of China, excellent. Go for it! But China is an opportunity for lots of companies... Some of which are discounted far more deeply than Apple may or may not be (and it isn't). See where I'm going with that?
 
If you don't mind sharing, what is your current Apple stock position. Long? Short? I am just curious.

Disclosure: I am long $AAPL.

What Im driving at is this: If you want to factor in that kind of opportunity, there's "oh China's a huge market! lots of opportunity! The stock will go massive!" kind of talk, and then there's analysis. So arriving at a realistic figure to plug in to forecasting growth involves quantifying that pipeline and doing so specifically for factors relevant to Apple's growth.

Even though the market for electronics could expand, it raises the question of what does that growth look like, what segments is it going to happen in. I don't see a lot of specific discussion around that here... and it's something I'd do on my own anyway.

But that's only future speculation... most of what I've discussed in here has been around what Apple's current enterprise value is based on their current state. What happens five years from now is speculation. But if the current state shows that the market right now is overpricing them relative to their actual value, then that doesn't give me a margin of safety in Graham's terms.

I'd rather wait until a market opportunity substantially underprices Apple, or another well-managed company that I can snatch up... and not worry so much about trying to pinpoint what the global markets might do in the future because I know I've already snagged an issue at a discount.

The point I'm making there is this: Imagine I have 10 securities. Imagine I bought three of them at a premium to their present value. Imagine I bought the other seven at a discount. They're all relatively equal in terms of their operating capabilities because all the other selection criteria I used are the same... most of them have pretty good operating cash flows, strong management, low debt, positive quick and current ratios... etc.

Now, as the market tends to move in herds, in a good market most of these issues will advance. But the ones I purchased at a discount tend toward larger gains over my cost basis than the ones for which I paid a premium. And I'm not talking about cutting it close. Even if you think Apple has tremendous opportunity, it's not a huge margin of safety you've got there when that additional opportunity isn't going to be worth $100-200 billion in MARGINAL growth in the near term... put another way: What's the probability of Apple doubling annual revenues in one year based on entry into one market that's 1/15th the size of US electronics consumption? It's not happening but if you think it is, calculate those odds... I'm not banking on it. It could happen, but lots of things could happen. That's not what I'm after.

The idea that the value approach to portfolio management is outdated has been chirped by Wall Street transaction fee collectors for decades... and for decades they've been proven wrong by value investors who beat the S&P year in and year out.

So, if someone wants Apple because of China, excellent. Go for it! But China is an opportunity for lots of companies... Some of which are discounted far more deeply than Apple may or may not be (and it isn't). See where I'm going with that?
 
I've been hoping the stock will go to $1000 but all this flash crash stuff has me worried. I don't trade. Just buy and hold it for years. Would like to get a dividend but I'm getting worried the whole thing could crash and stay down like a few hundred bucks.

These wall st people are crooks.
 
If you don't mind sharing, what is your current Apple stock position. Long? Short? I am just curious.

Disclosure: I am long $AAPL.

DISCLAIMER: Trade at your own risk. Past performance is not an indicator of future returns. Blah blah etc etc. I am a business analyst but I am not your personal financial advisor. I take no liability for anything you choose to do based on my commentary.

AAPL is not part of my portfolio at this time. If you already have AAPL, it's either a sell or hold depending on your degree of risk aversion. I don't advise initiating any new position in AAPL at this time as my analysis shows them to be currently overpriced relative to their actual value... and that's taking near term growth into account.
 
I wasn't looking for advice but thanks anyway. Just wanted to know your $AAPL position so I can read your comments with full context.

DISCLAIMER: Trade at your own risk. Past performance is not an indicator of future returns. Blah blah etc etc. I am a business analyst but I am not your personal financial advisor. I take no liability for anything you choose to do based on my commentary.

AAPL is not part of my portfolio at this time. If you already have AAPL, it's either a sell or hold depending on your degree of risk aversion. I don't advise initiating any new position in AAPL at this time as my analysis shows them to be currently overpriced relative to their actual value... and that's taking near term growth into account.
 
Is apple stock price a bubble?

If apple stock isn’t overvalued, why are so many fairytales written to justify its price which appears to be in a bubble stage considering its $254 billion increases in capitalization in the last year.

The assumptions made why apple stock is undervalued are unbelievable. Forecasting future earnings from historical trends are not always accurate, especially when the data is suspect. It was not long ago the herd believed that house prices could never go down but would continue to increase rapidly year over year.

Just as the apple cheerleaders believe its stock price cannot decline, but will continue to increase. Many analysts quote Apple’s sales potential growth rates to be 20% or more annually for the next five years to justify why its current share is undervalued.

Rarely, is apple net income ever mentioned. Apples net income from the past five years, from 2007 to 2011 is approximately 56.5 billion. A major jump in sale and income came in 2010 to 2011 when its net income increased by 11.91 billion.
Apple Net income

2007 3.50 billion Net Income growth
2008 4.83 billion 38.27 %
2009 8.24 billion 70.36%
2010 14.01 billion 70.16%
2011 25.92 billon 84.99%

What is never asked is how a company with a net income of 25.92 billion in 2011 can have achieved capitalization of 565.9 billion. Apple’s unsustainable income growth is beginning to slow, but this does not stop its promoters from developing deceptive forecast about Apples future growth citing its relatively low market share of worldwide computer, Smartphone and Tablet sales.

One must ask who is paying these analysts for these deceptive forecasts. Could it be the herd on Wall Street that has mortally damage the US Economy by all the financial instruments which were developed, supposably to limit risk, but were merely another device which allows them to hedge their bets and steal.

I am not surprised that the 70% of Apple’s stock is owned by institutional investors which have created another bubble as there are limited investment alternatives. Apple stock was primed for this collusion, due to it past growth and the difficulty in evaluating its most important characteristic which is the marketing of its products.

This is an intangible asset, akin to Goodwill which is very difficult to evaluate There is a reason, Apple’s sales are less than its competitor and that is due to their products considerably higher cost, which in many cases are functionality no better than their competitors.

I remember my first computer cost over S2500. Today, a superior system can be bought for less than $400. This is directly related to Apple’s value and alleged income growth potential. Just as computers, big screen TVs and many other electronic devices have been commoditized, so will apple products if they wish to capture additional market share and stay competitive.

It is not likely Apple’s can continue to increase its net income by 85% a year or for that matter by 20% a year for the next five. Apple’s net income was approximately 26 billion in 2011. This is a massive amount of money. An increase of 20% equals 5.2 billion gains in net profit. This buys quite a few Ipads, downloads and other apple products. Really, how more Ipads, Ipods and other Apple products can the market absorb without a significant cut in their price.

In addition, the more affluent markets have been saturated with apple products, leaving the less capable markets the task of buying all though millions of products which are forecast to be manufactured and sold by apple in the coming years.

Essentially, a cut in pricing will affect Apple’s bottom line, which is net income. Net income is very useful in determining an asset or company value. In addition, the use of net income is a more accurate than utilizing earnings with manipulated PE ratios to determining a value.

It is very likely Apple’s net income will stagnate, due it considerable size, competing products and the fact it will have to lower its pricing to achieve significantly more market share.

Apple average net income over the last 5 years is 11.3 billion. This income average would typically be utilized to estimate a value. But let use apple’s most recent report net income which is 32.98 billion. If a capitalization rate of 10% is used Apple’s value can be estimated by:

32.98 Billion / .10 % ≈ 323 billion.

Now a price share can be determined by dividing the outstanding share which is approximately 932 million into 323 billion.

323 billion / 932 million = $363 per share

This is a more realistic value for Apple’s as its past growth is not sustainable nor is a significant increase in it net income likely. How did Apple’s capitalization increase by 254 billion over the last year? The majority of Apple's capitalization came from Hedge funds and Money managers who have driven apple stock price to an irrational level s due to their herd likely mentality.

It is not surprising that apple now is offering a dividend and is buying back its stock so that it can keep the stock price artificially high. But why are they waiting till September to begin the buy back. Maybe, their analysts see a drop coming and can acquire more shares for the reported 100 billion buy back... You know Apple is very innovative.

It maybe possible for Apple's stock price to maintain this level for a period time, but not likely as its price has been inflated by Speculators that created another Bubble which will eventually hurt the uninformed and possible many retirement funds.

My analysis indicates Apple current capitalization is overvalued by approximately 200 billion. My advice is to sell apple stock now as it current capitalization is based on intangible asset, and improbable income growth rates. For all the individual investors that have recently purchased Apple stock due to deceptive conjecture, my condolence

I know my comment will probably fall on deaf ears, but at least I made an effort to bring another perceptive on Apple’s irrational stock price.
 
That was a very informative and interesting take on the stock. It was very long so I didn't quote you but I do appreciate the detail. Hopefully we won't get all the hate that usually follows after post like yours.
 
My analysis indicates Apple current capitalization is overvalued by approximately 200 billion. My advice is to sell apple stock now as it current capitalization is based on intangible asset, and improbable income growth rates. For all the individual investors that have recently purchased Apple stock due to deceptive conjecture, my condolence

I know my comment will probably fall on deaf ears, but at least I made an effort to bring another perceptive on Apple’s irrational stock price.



So you came and registered just to post this. Either a bad April Fool's joke or you have an agenda, like the analysts. :rolleyes:
 
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