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Keep this very important difference in mind.
iPhones are subsidized and are usually free or a couple hundred bucks.

The Apple watch will require full payment up front.

This will be a key factor on who is willing to go deeper in to CC debt for a status symbol trinket.

Overstated difference and I think irrelevant for the folks who line up for launch day Apple products. Also only applicable in the U.S. But iPhone sells great all over the world.

I don't know if you saw the scalpers that used to line up for iPads even weeks after its release, but they were common in NYC. Between scalpers lined up to get the watch and ship overseas to countries where won't be on sale to the crazed Apple Fanboi, to the tech enthusiast, there will be enough people to make a line on launch day.

But to sell a million during the launch weekend they will need good supply and they will have to ship to pre-order folks. I think that will all happen.

The question is will the watch deliver sufficient utility or status to push millions per quarter. That is what we don't know. But launch day lines and sellouts, that I'm sure will happen.
 
This is true, especially that last bit. And this comes from someone who has been lucky.

From what I hear on these boards, most people should not be buying individual stocks at all. They should be investing so much every month into a range of ETFs and not trying to guess what today's hot stock is going to be or what the markets are going to do today, tomorrow, next week, or even next year. If a person started that regime when they were 30 they could retire with millions, easily, without needing to hit any jackpots.
I just showed that to my 9 year old daughter on Tuesday. Made an Excel spreadsheet with this information:
$2000 Annual investment
10% Rate of Return
Running total

She thought that there would be about $200,000 when she "retired" after 40 years. Her eyes popped out when I showed her that she'd have about $2.5M. She really got wowed when I increased it to 12%, and it nearly doubled her value after 40 years.

It's fun to teach the kids this lesson, and then show them that we put our money where our mouths are.
 
Am I doing my math right? Right now I see stock is about 126.33. If this had been before the stock split that would put the stock right around $884.31 per stock right?
 
I just showed that to my 9 year old daughter on Tuesday. Made an Excel spreadsheet with this information:
$2000 Annual investment
10% Rate of Return
Running total

She thought that there would be about $200,000 when she "retired" after 40 years. Her eyes popped out when I showed her that she'd have about $2.5M. She really got wowed when I increased it to 12%, and it nearly doubled her value after 40 years.

It's fun to teach the kids this lesson, and then show them that we put our money where our mouths are.

Well done. The magic of compounding. It's never too soon to pass along this kind of wisdom. Of course at some point your daughter may be clever enough to figure out that dad is so financially level-headed that he's going to leave her a bunch of money some day. A later lesson could be, "and I plan on spending your inheritance." ;)

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Am I doing my math right? Right now I see stock is about 126.33. If this had been before the stock split that would put the stock right around $884.31 per stock right?

Precisely. FWIW.
 
Well done. The magic of compounding. It's never too soon to pass along this kind of wisdom. Of course at some point your daughter may be clever enough to figure out that dad is so financially level-headed that he's going to leave her a bunch of money some day. A later lesson could be, "and I plan on spending your inheritance." ;)

She'll have to fight it out with her 6 brothers and sisters... :eek: :D
 
I worked in Apple retail for about 8 years and was one of the first teams in back in the day (about when the iPod came out). Anyway I maxed out my stock buy in and also 401K which was about 16% each check for 8 years. I know I purchased stock under $20 a share back in the day. Anyway looking at 350K now since I never sold any. Kinda of fun since most of the people I worked with didn't buy any and while its not a ton of money (I know I need at least 5 to 7 times that to retire) not bad for working retail I think as well as me being a real person. I know its nothing compared to the big wigs who make millions but Apple sure been kind to me and there are probably not to many people who work retail that have that much when they are still pretty young. Its fun to see it climb over the years and I think there is a chance it could go as high as 225 in the coming years. :)

GO APPLE!!!
 
A myth, eh? Somebody recently won a Nobel Prize in Economics for that "myth." Eugene Fama. You might look into that.

FWIW, information doesn't have to be "perfect," it merely has to be what is known. Nether do investors need to be rational and they certainly don't have to be uniform. It's inherent in the nature of auctions that market prices are going to reflect the collective opinion on worth at any given point in time much more nearly than some theory of their value. About the future, everyone is guessing, it being impossible to do anything else.

Declining earnings lead to a declining stock price, invariably. If I need to explain the connection then this is bound to require a more remedial lesson in market basics than I am prepared to supply.

Amazon is not being valued by a completely different system. It's exactly the same one. They continue to push their top line at a massive clip, and to plow those earnings into growing revenues further (the definition of capitalism as it happens). At some point they will need to show where profits come from all this top line growth, and investors it would seem are becoming more nervous about that, bidding the stock sideways over the course of the last year or so.

You might want to cut the "conservative ideology" crap. This doesn't have a single thing to do with what I am saying.

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This is true, especially that last bit. And this comes from someone who has been lucky.

From what I hear on these boards, most people should not be buying individual stocks at all. They should be investing so much every month into a range of ETFs and not trying to guess what today's hot stock is going to be or what the markets are going to do today, tomorrow, next week, or even next year. If a person started that regime when they were 30 they could retire with millions, easily, without needing to hit any jackpots.

BTW, you fail to mention that Fama's hypothesis (EMH) (it is in no way proven, far from it, economy is not a science), have been under a lot of heat in the last 10 years, that other economists that have a behaviorist views of the market have also had the Nobel prize in the last 15 years. His thoughts don't rule the field.

An example of his waning influence.
---
At the International Organization of Securities Commissions annual conference, held in June 2009, the hypothesis took center stage. Martin Wolf, the chief economics commentator for the Financial Times, dismissed the hypothesis as being a useless way to examine how markets function in reality. Paul McCulley, managing director of PIMCO, was less extreme in his criticism, saying that the hypothesis had not failed, but was "seriously flawed" in its neglect of human nature.[50][51]
----
Also Fama himself said
----
"poorly informed investors could theoretically lead the market astray" and that stock prices could become "somewhat irrational" as a result".
-----
Isn't that close to what I was saying hmmm. How could that be? Poorly informed investors. Those things shouldn't matter per Fama's original influential work... In response to his critics he's introduced what I would call "fudge factors" (sic) to account for variations from efficiency coming from imperfect information flows, in the latest extensions of his work.
Also...
-----
"Critics have suggested that financial institutions and corporations have been able to reduce the efficiency of financial markets by creating private information and reducing the accuracy of conventional disclosures, and by developing new and complex products which are challenging for most market participants to evaluate and correctly price."
------

OK, won't go further. But, the gist of it is that views of asset pricing are now much more diverse than before; that it is seen as much more complex than before.

I think your thoughts on the whole thing are reflective of the general pre 2000 view. My position reflects a recent scepticisim of efficient markets.

------

As for the thought that markets are efficient and will self-regulate, well come on, that is absolutely current conservative ideology (not the one from before 1975) everywhere (not just the US). It is all over every bit of Reagan conservatives' (and those who followed) talking points, since that time.

Myself I think that market can be efficient, but they need a bit of help (regulation) to keep information flows going and to protect irrational investosr from themselves.
 
BTW, you fail to mention that Fama's hypothesis (EMH) (it is in no way proven, far from it, economy is not a science), have been under a lot of heat in the last 10 years, that other economists that have a behaviorist views of the market have also had the Nobel prize in the last 15 years. His thoughts don't rule the field.

I don't have to mention that economists often give each other "heat," or that their theories are not "proven." Nothing in any of the sciences is ever "proven," and giving each other "heat" is entirely in the nature of the business, so that argument is just plain hooey, and especially if you are using to justify your opinion that it's just a "myth."

So, in reality: Fama's market theories are now very much imbedded in the world of investing, through index funds, a concept he had a large part in creating. This also happens to be the fastest growing asset allocation strategy in the world today. This is true, whether you know it or not.

I very strongly suspect that you'd heard of none of this before and are now struggling to Google your way out of your initial argument. Not going to work, sorry. I've been reading up on this for years, so I know what you are saying is total poppycock. None this has anything in the remotest fashion to do with "regulation." Even mentioning this shows how far you are from getting what this is about.

While you are Googling, also try David Swensen.
 
Incredible... I remember when Apple was just a computer maker, an ignored little competitor to Windows. Those of us with Macs liked them better than PCs and wanted to use only a Mac from then on, while PC users laughed them off as toys or inferior machines. As Apple moved into the iBook era with the cool look of those colorful clamshells and flashy Pixar iMacs, Apple was finally being recognized as a worthy alternative to PCs but people still figured that they would never surpass Microsoft since the most useful software was still being written for Windows. They still weren't "real" computers. Then when the iPod came along, they started to catch a label as a "hipster" brand that only the hipster rich kids needed to buy, while those of us who stuck with them truly understood the fact that they made a superior product....

And now... they are the most valuable business in the world.

Yet the Mac still fails to make a dent in the Enterprise. Why?
 
Yet the Mac still fails to make a dent in the Enterprise. Why?

I think it's entirely a marketing issue. The Mac has always been primarily marketed as a creative tool and as a personal home computer. There are available options for just about every type of enterprise software for the Mac, and plenty of people use them for business (those of us who work so much faster and better than our PC counterparts :D) but the majority of people still view them as home computers or design machines. But I think that as more and more people are using Macs on their own, they are demanding the ability to use them in the office as well, so more companies are investing in Macs for their workforce. It will be a gradual transition, but as long as the Mac remains popular and new versions of Windows continue to turn Microsoft into a laughing stock, it will happen.
 
Last surge before the collapse.
The Apple Watch will start a chain reaction of questionability about Apple products that people will go elsewhere for the same performance & experience at a lower cost.

Just like last time Steve left, it's only a matter of time before Apple kills his legacy.

I'd buy this view if something called "iPhone" didn't exist. If you haven't noticed, iPhones sell themselves. People keep buying them, and people will keep buying them for the foreseeable future until something better comes along. I doubt this iWatch will be a fiasco. I will not be buying one (I don't see the point for any watch for that matter), but based on the fact this is apple, that their products are exceptionally well-made, that software development, integration and maintenance is second to none, I actually except it to be successful. And if it isn't, it will not be the end of apple.
 
Last surge before the collapse.
The Apple Watch will start a chain reaction of questionability about Apple products that people will go elsewhere for the same performance & experience at a lower cost.

Just like last time Steve left, it's only a matter of time before Apple kills his legacy.

So because the apple watch may not be that great, people will stop buying iPhones too? Not sure how you came to this conclusion.
 
I don't have to mention that economists often give each other "heat," or that their theories are not "proven." Nothing in any of the sciences is ever "proven," and giving each other "heat" is entirely in the nature of the business, so that argument is just plain hooey, and especially if you are using to justify your opinion that it's just a "myth."

So, in reality: Fama's market theories are now very much imbedded in the world of investing, through index funds, a concept he had a large part in creating. This also happens to be the fastest growing asset allocation strategy in the world today. This is true, whether you know it or not.

I very strongly suspect that you'd heard of none of this before and are now struggling to Google your way out of your initial argument. Not going to work, sorry. I've been reading up on this for years, so I know what you are saying is total poppycock. None this has anything in the remotest fashion to do with "regulation." Even mentioning this shows how far you are from getting what this is about.

While you are Googling, also try David Swensen.

Oh, right, non-response to argument and direct quotes that there is no consensus, then a gratuitous insult (since you have no clue about me), and then another name (completely sidestepping my core argument...)... I'm "impressed" now (sic).

Those many little Wiki quotes (from entries relating to valuation that have several dozen references, you can check them all since you like reading) are all that was needed to fully stuff your "argument".

Facts are useful when arguing a position. Here, I don't even need to argue against efficient markets, just point that there are competing models (some including parts of EMH) that explain things just as well, or better. That's like the difference between Bohr's model of the Atom (planetary well defined orbits) and the one that emerged after Heisenberg (probabilistic orbital zones). The second borrows a bit from the first, but they are different.

Scientific hypothesis and the models they support, under challenge, are revised, tweaked and dropped all the time to better match observations. Even of EMH, there has been modifications to its 1970s variant in response to challenges of other models.

If you want me to quote recent general university textbooks (even advanced ones), discussion sections of recent papers on the subject, or video clips of known economists discussing the issue? I'll be happy to oblige.
But, I've got an inkling that you're not really interested in shaded views, which posits (yes, even these are merely hypothesis) that efficient markets are mucked up (paraphrased) by humans and society.

Of course, there are plenty of books that don't look at the subject as a whole and espouse a single point of view; I expect you are well versed in those books.

---
As for your gratuitous insult; got a masters diploma in Management from McGill in 2005 and first delved into economics/finance in 1988-1992 during my first engineering degree.

So, I'm now going to check out of this, because lets face it, your opinion is immutable to all arguments and facts. It has become entrenched dogma rather than an hypothesis that maybe needs adjustments.
 
Oh, right, non-response to argument and direct quotes that there is no consensus, then a gratuitous insult (since you have no clue about me), and then another name (completely sidestepping my core argument...)... I'm "impressed" now (sic)

Take it as an insult if that suits your sense of righteous indignation, but if so, remember that you've brought it on yourself entirely by making an argument that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am talking about. Nothing. As in zero. To be blunt, you checked out of the discussion the moment you refused to respond to anything I actually said. In other words, from the very start.
 
10% rate of return? I'm intrigued. More info needed please :)

People speak of risk in investments as the volatility of the stock, but I look at risk as the differential between opportunity cost and the current appreciation of a given stock/mutual fund. So, if stock A appreciated at 35% last year, and I'm invested in mutual fund B at 4%, I look at the risk as -31%.

Currently, Mrs. Thequick is invested in the following mutual funds (5 Year Return and 10 year return):
NBGAX
HIINX (7.73%)
AAGPX (15.34%)
NOSGX (approx. 13% - reading from a graph)
JENSX (approx. 12% - reading from table - one year 32%, two years at - single digits)
HCAIX (approx. 11%)
OAKMX (approx. 14%)

While I am invested with my play money in:
AAPL (Bought at $225, or around $31 in post-split money, in 2010)
ECTE (Bought at $4, now worth $2.50)
GLD (Bought at $120, now worth... $120ish)
KO (Bought at $39, now at $42, but the dividends are nice!)
ORIG (Given as a dividend of a split or merger, I forgot which)
RGSE (Bought on a hunch at $3.50)
XOM (Gas prices go down, I win at the pump. They go up, I win at the investment house)

Just a note: This is retirement money, not "let's go on the around the world cruise if the stocks play out" money. This is for the long haul, so fluctuations and the daily ins and outs don't faze me much. I use DRIP (Dividend Reinvestment P - I forgot what the "P" is for) so all of the dividends reinvest, so I'm making money on my money.

So, that is the long answer to my daughter. The short one is: Not taking a risk is the riskiest thing you can do with your money. The driving force for my conviction on this is the Parable of the Talents.
 
I just showed that to my 9 year old daughter on Tuesday. Made an Excel spreadsheet with this information:
$2000 Annual investment
10% Rate of Return
Running total

She thought that there would be about $200,000 when she "retired" after 40 years. Her eyes popped out when I showed her that she'd have about $2.5M. She really got wowed when I increased it to 12%, and it nearly doubled her value after 40 years.

It's fun to teach the kids this lesson, and then show them that we put our money where our mouths are.

That's great and all but be sure to also show her that a lot of this enormous profit comes at the expense of those who make these products under basically slave like conditions. Also explain that her and her potential husband someday might have trouble finding work or get displaced by cheap overseas labor someday to keep the trillion dollar monster charging ahead. That's all.

What's fair is fair. :D
 
That's great and all but be sure to also show her that a lot of this enormous profit comes at the expense of those who make these products under basically slave like conditions. Also explain that her and her potential husband someday might have trouble finding work or get displaced by cheap overseas labor someday to keep the trillion dollar monster charging ahead. That's all.

What's fair is fair. :D

The word slave. It doesn't mean what you think it does.
 
That's great and all but be sure to also show her that a lot of this enormous profit comes at the expense of those who make these products under basically slave like conditions. Also explain that her and her potential husband someday might have trouble finding work or get displaced by cheap overseas labor someday to keep the trillion dollar monster charging ahead. That's all.

What's fair is fair. :D

I'll let you raise your daughter as you see fit, and I'll raise mine the way I see fit, and I'll also explain to her the socio-economic systems that these people live under prohibits them from being anything but slaves.

The funny thing is, since you brought it up, poor people can't help other poor people out. I am, however, teaching her that when you have money, you can be a good person and help those in need out, and that's more than just giving them money. It's about being free to not worry, and having the time to teach others how to fish, rather than tossing them 4 day old room temperature sushi.

So, since you seem to want to solve all of the world's labor problems, how about you go first:

1. Start a company, make it the largest in the world, and as you do it, make sure that everyone at your suppliers has a standard of living that is acceptable to you.
2. Show me how you are making the living conditions better for these people now. I'd like to know how you, personally, are making this happen.
3. (Assuming that you're in the USA) Go to your boss, today, and demand that he/she pay you less for the same work that you're doing, and you refuse to take a dime extra until all of the workers of the world unite and overthrow the masters.

Alinsky goes both ways, you know.

Let me know when you do this, and please provide objective evidence that you have done it. Youtube will work fine.

What's fair is fair.
 
Got it Jeffythequik. Well written. Thanks a lot for sharing and explaining.

You're welcome!

If I may, I cannot recommend Dave Ramsey enough. My wife and I are on the same page when it comes to money, and we've gotten closer to each other. OK, we got closer after about the 3rd or 4th budget meeting, but now that we're on the same page with money, the rest of life's little mishaps are trivial.

www.daveramsey.com
 
Overstated difference and I think irrelevant for the folks who line up for launch day Apple products. Also only applicable in the U.S. But iPhone sells great all over the world.

The US is hardly the only subsidized country.

In fact, when I checked last year, over 90% of worldwide iPhone sales occur in countries that have subsidies. Not to mention the well known correlation of iPhone sales to subsidies.

So upfront cost is very relevant.

That's apparently why Apple (according to the WSJ) and others think that Watch sales will be akin to iPad sales, which have a similar base price.
 
The US is hardly the only subsidized country.

In fact, when I checked last year, over 90% of worldwide iPhone sales occur in countries that have subsidies. Not to mention the well known correlation of iPhone sales to subsidies.

So upfront cost is very relevant.

That's apparently why Apple (according to the WSJ) and others think that Watch sales will be akin to iPad sales, which have a similar base price.

I though most countries had most of their cell sales through plans without subsidies. I know subsidies exist, but I thought they were not the standard way to buy a phone outside of the U.S.

I don't think price has anything to do with why Apple might be expecting Watch sales to be similar to iPad sales. Besides, iPad sales were 20 million last quarter I believe. The WSJ article estimated 5 million in Watch sales. But I doubt that estimate is based off of anything except very limited part channel interviews all done off the record and from anonymous sources.

I really don't think we have any idea how the watch will sell. The folks with the best idea, are the folks who are using it now on a daily basis. If they think the use is compelling, then they are probably estimating a lot of sales. But those are Apple employees and they aren't talking.
 
Yet the Mac still fails to make a dent in the Enterprise. Why?

That is complex because there are two article reasons! One is hard headed IT Managers complaining about Apple this or that. The second it would put out the current supplier and support don't know anything about/supporting Apple.

Plus economics have change businesses IT drastically! Says Microsoft has drastically changed the way Microsoft Server fees are being charged to businesses. Now most businesses went to Linux servers and now allow bring your computer. Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot of Server fees!
 
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